50 votes

Gary Johnson wants a 23% national sales tax.

Gary Johnson is pushing for the so called "fair tax" which would institute a 23% national sales tax. This is something Ron has warned against over the years.

I wonder when the Libertarian party became the party of higher taxes?

I have not been a fan of Johnson, but even I was sort of surprised to hear he was pushing for a 23% national sales tax.

EDIT: For those who have requested a link. Straight from Gary's website point number 2. http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues/economy-and-taxes

EDIT: From Gary's website specifically referencing his support for a 23% national sales tax. http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/presidential-candidate-gary-j...

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I am not endorsing Johnson or

I am not endorsing Johnson or the fair tax but from the comments I have read most don't understand how many costs are imbebedded in things.Cost of things would go down drastically,even wih a 23% sales tax on things you would be paying much less for them and you would also keep everything you make.Product you pay for today have so many taxes on them we don't know what the true(much lower)market price is.The fair tax would be an incredible leap in the right direction and may even prevent a collapse.Of course like many of you DP's I believe taxation is theft too but paying a tax if you choose it(you could avoid buying things or barter) and without the barrel of a gun pointed at you(IRS) is a far better alternative.

I don't know if that is

I don't know if that is necessarily true.

If, for example, Ford can sell it basic model car for 25,0000, then why would they reduce their price to whatever? They'd take the increased profits from the lack of tax and pocket it.

The theory you are talking about exists in a market where producers are selling their goods for as little profit as they need to keep the business viable, where the cost of production is the greatest barrier to lowering costs.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

This is the first time you hear of the Fair Tax?

where have you been?



Of course I have heard of it. However, I did not know that higher taxes, turning every citizen into a welfare recipient whose purchases are subject to government monitoring (IE:Prebate), and mandating every small business to become a federal tax collector was a libertarian position.

Ron Paul 2012 - It's Almost Here!

The most logic in the fewest words

and it was ignored by the 'fair tax' cheerleaders.

During the republican primary

Ron paul came out for getting rid of the income tax and putting a consumption tax. The number is usually 23% when people talk about the consumption tax because there is still a government to run. Hello. There will always be a government to run.

link please


yeah, i know. that's why i

yeah, i know. that's why i stopped supporting him, but then later, five months later when the primaries got close, he was adamantly against a flat tax.
so which was it?

i don't care. i'm glad people can overlook that gaffe and still support him so much.

now it's alex jones and infowars for me, and waking people up.

i need to read again like i used to.


You know people have gone

You know people have gone insane when they are nitpicking against a candidate that will abolish the IRS. There is no conceivable tax worse than the IRS-enforced income tax save a chip to buy and sell.

I guess the disappointment after they rigged Iowa was too much.

Ventura 2012

SO WHAT ?!?!?!

I don't care if he wants pigs with wings on 'em! He isn't going to win, so it doesn't matter! Whatever he wants does NOT matter one iota! Now if he makes a decent showing in the election, he would bring the concepts and ideas of liberty and the Libertarian Party to the mainstream public! And the news would report that there is a GROWING Liberty movement in this country, maybe swelling our ranks! It would put fear in the GOP! It would cause many in the GOP to sit up and take notice, maybe they would even start to pander to US! It would give the Liberty movement some clout in the eyes of the American public!

EVERY result that would come from voting for GJ and/or GJ making a good showing on election night would not just be good, it would be GREAT for us and the Liberty movement! Now, with all of his positions aside because there is ZERO chance he could WIN, please tell me how voting for him would not be a great thing for the Liberty movement?



First of all! IT DOESN'T

First of all! IT DOESN'T MATTER because he is not going to win! Secondly, a good showing might introduce all Americans to the general concepts of the Libertarian Party, a GREAT THING! And thirdly, paying 23% on only the things I BUY, is much better than now paying 35% on everything I earn, including what I save! This is not a big deal, but when the public is told that the Libertarian Party is to far out for even lovers of Liberty to support, they will never look any further into the concepts of Liberty or the Libertarian Party, is that what you want?

This is one of my biggest problems with Johnson.

There is no way I can support a consumption tax.
I already pay 6-7% state sales tax. I don't care which government entity is taking my money, it is all the same to me.
Abolish the income tax, property taxes, and state sales taxes, Then we'll see how I feel about a national sales tax.

I can still vote for Johnson but I need a congress that will NOT act on any fair tax.

For me, it would be a 23%

For me, it would be a 23% increase in taxes from 0%. We have no state sales tax here in NH, and being on SSDI I don't pay income tax anymore either. It would mean that my cost of living will go up dramatically and I'm already well below poverty level. Nope, GJ's tax plan is as bad as Hermain Cain's plan was. It only punishes those less able to afford it.

Blessings )o(

There are rebates for people

There are rebates for people around and below the poverty level. If you going to critique it at least know what you're talking about. It's not like he would even win, it is a protest vote ONLY, and maybe a way to get some attention for the concepts of liberty out to the general public! Is that a bad thing?

You're right, which is why

You're right, which is why you were voted down.

Also, and on this I'm not sure, but I thought the sales tax only applied to like new cars, electronics and non-essential items?

"You're right, which is why

"You're right, which is why you were voted down."

I am getting the feeling that there is a HUGE influx of agitators here trying their best to destroy any future of the Liberty Movement. Is that what you are talking about?

Actually, Ron Paul said the

Actually, Ron Paul said the fair tax is not ideal but better than the income tax...

Ventura 2012

Gary J, the "fair tax", and libertarianism

Gary Johnson and his campaign must be reminded that libertarians recognise that TAXATION IS THEFT! There is no more "fairness" to a tax than there is "fairness" to any other form of robbery, extortion, or counterfeiting (see inflation and the Federal Reserve).

Who will fund the Federal Government when the IRS and the income tax is abolished without a "fair tax"? Maybe a better question the Johnson campaign should be asking--along with the rest of us-- is "ought the Federal Government be funded at all"? At least the people at large will have money as the criminal DC regime sinks into bankruptcy, chaos, and misery whether a "fair tax" of 23% is enacted or not, and the rebuilding of a sound, prosperous, and libertarian economy can take place that much sooner...

The "fair tax" is an idea whose time has come--and gone! Abolish the income tax and replace it with nothing. No robbery is better than "fair" robbery!


"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is not to be attacked successfully, it is to be defended badly". F. Bastiat

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, finally they attack you, and then you win"! Mohandas Gandhi

Your ideas are correct, but

Your ideas are correct, but there is a HUGE chasm between those ideas and where the general public is! Gary Johnsons ideas are a bridge to where you are the public COULD follow once the IRS is gone. Unfortunately you do NOT want a bridge, you want one giant leap from the American people, which will keep us and them permanently separated by this chasm! The question is do you want the public to come our direction a little at a time, or is it an everything all at once or nothing ever kind of deal for you?

What necessities are exempt from this tax, what's included?

Does anyone know? This 23%, I assume it applies to any retail purchase like the state sales tax? Does it apply to services too, like dentistry, doctors bills, insurance bills, electric, heat, phone, automotive repairs, water and sewer? If you buy a house or a car, that 23% could be huge! Does the tax apply to used items? The devil is in the details. Another question, when a purchase is made is an electronic record made to track what you purchase, when and where? If so I can see some privacy issues with that. I am in Michigan and we have a 6% sales tax, so the tax here would in effect be 29%! I am not so sure I like this idea without some more information on it.

All the details you're looking for are at FairTax.org

Check out the FairTax FAQ here:


The FairTax is replacement, not reform. It replaces federal income taxes including personal, estate, gift, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, self-employment, and corporate taxes.

So you take home 100% of your paycheck and pay the 23% consumption tax on the purchase of new consumer goods at the retail level.

Dr. Paul has gone on the record stating that the FairTax is an improvement over the current system, and could be one step in dismantling the IRS. Trying to use this to beat up on Gary Johnson is a rather transparent and pointless attack that is beneath the Liberty Movement.

"Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid." - Ronald Reagan

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Thanks, I checked it out.

I see a major problem with what they are calling a prebate. In order to have the prebate the state needs to know what you are buying and how much you are spending on what you buy. So in order to have this "prebate" work each person will need a tax ID# to track the purchases. So in order to purchase anything you will need your tax number, can't have just a card because people would scam the system. I know! How about a computer chip surgically implanted, that would work. No thanks.

Well there ya go about that

Well there ya go about that guy. I guess they should have a flat tax for those who want to partake in the services. The rest of us should be left alone.


that's the ultimate in 'fair' taxation - user fees. But first, you gotta privatize most of the crap gunvernment provides that is shouldn't be in the business of providing; then the real moochers won't b*tch when you're driving on public roads without paying a toll.

That was the Steve Forbes Plan

That was the Steve Forbes plan in 2000. Short of eliminating taxes altogether and moving to import taxes, that is actually a very good idea.

Ron Paul 2012 - It's Almost Here!

The Fairtax

He proposes this, yes... but you have to know the specifics. The Income Tax is the least fair, most detrimental to liberty, most destructive to the economy tax that can exist (short of a one time "wealth tax", thank god we're not there yet). The Fairtax, as it is currently written, would repeal every other tax that the Federal Government levies, including income taxes, corporate taxes, social security taxes, etc. It would be visible, and everyone would benefit from having it be as low as possible. This would create a huge lobby for lower taxes, whereas now the attitude is that taxes are ok as long as they're on my neighbor. The first step would be getting it passed with a repeal of the other taxes, the next step would be making it lower. The economy would be much better off with such a system, and in so improving the economy, the federal government would not have to print so much money, which is the worst tax of all and destroys the middle class.

Ron, in theory, is actually not against such a tax (I'm speculating). Ron probably didn't see the political benefit to pushing this policy currently, especially in a year where he was actually gaining traction with the American people and had a reasonable, albeit small with all the cheating going on, chance at becoming president of the United States. Unfortunately, like the "spending cuts" that were supposed to be granted in Reagan's compromise to raise taxes, the actual cuts never came because they were "promised". I'm just as afraid as I think Ron is that they'll pile this tax on without getting rid of the others, but if they do not, it will be great for America in comparison to what we have - and that is currently how it is written. People should be taxed (if taxation is necessary) when they spend their wealth, not for creating it. Immediately, this would encourage investment in America, both domestically and foreign direct investment to bring their businesses here (due to the 0% corporate tax). Talk about a job creation perfect storm... come build your business in America, where we have the wealthiest consumers (at least currently) and the lowest tax rate in the world. We could actually make stuff here again... wouldn't it be nice to grab a shirt out of your closet that said "Made in America" once again? I think so.

Gary Johnson, although I agree he is no Ron Paul (then again, who is?), is not a bad person for seeing the Fairtax as potentially a very good thing. Do your homework on the proposed legislation before you come to a conclusion on this issue. Hey, Ron Paul is an American Hero in my book. Any man who can tolerate the storm of Washington DC for as long as he has without breaking in two from the constant corruption and complete idiocy, is a hero in my book. I just cringe at the idea of this movement of people not keeping our eyes open to great ideas because Ron didn't push the idea. Trust me, he isn't going to be around forever, so we need to stay sharp, be informed, and keep pushing the ideas of liberty. The Fairtax, in my humble opinion, is one of those ideas (or at least the idea that a one time consumption tax at the retail point of sale is better than taxing someone's income). Sorry for the ranting nature of this post. I rarely post, so I guess I may have gone overboard.

It is blatantly unconstitutional, anti-liberty...

It is blatantly unconstitutional, anti-liberty, destructive of free markets and property!

There is no authority for the government to take from the people what they earn! It is destructive and unconstitutional in numerous ways.

Surely you have heard Ron Paul's very clear message of liberty, that no such tax is needed, was ever needed, was ever intended!

Any tax needs to comport with the constitutional mandates regarding direct and indirect taxation. To alter requires a major change in our constitution! Which begs the question: where is the head and mind of those who advocate altering the constitution? What is the real motive when alterations which enlarge the confiscatory power of government are so glibly passed off under the guise of "fair tax".

It is as bogus as my turning lead to gold, or as Orwellian as Stalin preserving the people from starvation by eliminating their need for food entirely!

It is that thinking and just such taxes, from which the founders extricated a sovereign people!

Wake up folks! Ron Paul eschews all these unconstitutional taxes! They should, said he, be replaced with nothing!

I pose a question

The Federal Government has absolutely no right to be the size that it is. It is a monster in and of itself, and they should be able to do their constitutional functions (namely, protecting individual liberty) for FAR LESS than $2 Trillion.

That being said, let's say we happen to have a constitutional war on our hands, how do you suggest we fund it? If the Federal Government has any legitimate function, how should we fund it? I know that you're not going to say income tax, because it's absurd that we have to pay parts of our income. So, what shall we do? Remember, I'm strictly talking about the legitimate functions of our Federal government, which there are very few (and clearly elucidated in article I section 8), but of which one of them is defending its citizens...

If you say no taxes (or fees), then the Federal Government could never operate those functions (we'd probably be better off than we are today with that system if enacted; however, it was not what the founders intended, and is not a constitutional republic). If there is a better way than a consumption tax, I'm not aware of it. If you make me aware of the better alternative, I can (and will) be in full support if it is justifiable.


Eh Gary?

For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.