50 votes

Gary Johnson wants a 23% national sales tax.

Gary Johnson is pushing for the so called "fair tax" which would institute a 23% national sales tax. This is something Ron has warned against over the years.

I wonder when the Libertarian party became the party of higher taxes?

I have not been a fan of Johnson, but even I was sort of surprised to hear he was pushing for a 23% national sales tax.

EDIT: For those who have requested a link. Straight from Gary's website point number 2. http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues/economy-and-taxes

EDIT: From Gary's website specifically referencing his support for a 23% national sales tax. http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/presidential-candidate-gary-j...

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it's like you refuse to pay attention

johnson's campaign website links directly to fairtax.org.

read the fourth question down:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=FAQs

I don't know if it's that

I don't know if it's that they refuse to pay attention or that they are just in denial.

Ron Paul 2012 - It's Almost Here!

It only links to SUGGESTED READING on the SUBJECT!

VP on GJ ticket said 15-20 yesterday and just read the article I posted.

LL on Twitter: http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
sometimes LL can suck & sometimes LL rocks!
http://www.dailypaul.com/203008/south-carolina-battle-of-cow...
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

READ:

"Enact the Fair Tax"

what part of johnsons position to enact the capital F, capital T, "Fair [23% national] Tax" do you not understand?

Then the VP disagrees with

Then the VP disagrees with Gary. The 23% is specifically touted on the GJ 2012 website as being Gary's position. http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/presidential-candidate-gary-j...

Ron Paul 2012 - It's Almost Here!

tasmlab's picture

I believe the first shift is supposed to be 'revenue neutral'

I believe the first shift in fair tax is supposed to be 'revenue neutral', for all the good that does. That's why the rate is so high.

I would prefer a consumption tax over income tax too, but it doesn't fix anything fundamental.

Currently consuming: Harry Browne, Free Domain Radio; JT Gatto and Holt; Wii U

There has been some arguments

There have been some arguments from Johnson supporters that Johnson favors some other national sales tax rate other than the 23% that is promoted by the actual Fair Tax legislation.

However, the Fair Tax that Johnson is pushing is a very specific piece of legislation with a very specific tax rate. 23% is the number and that is what Johnson says he supports.

Here is a link to the Johnson website where Gary is specifically quoted as supporting the 23% national sales tax. http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/presidential-candidate-gary-j...

That his supporters insist he is mentioning different national sales tax percentage rates is only further proof that this guy is all over the place. Not just on this issue, but many.

Ron Paul 2012 - It's Almost Here!

oops...

wrong place...

It's interesting to read all the comments here

and I am not advocating the FT one way or the other. By eliminating the majority of our taxes, that is much more income in our pockets. Paying a consumption tax means we'd be in control of our tax expenditures and not having them automatically taken, without choice.

Who can argue with no IRS and zero taxes? But, how would the remaining government departments be funded with no tax revenue? Like it or not, we will always need a central government, no matter how small.

(don't bomb me here, just giving another perspective)

"But, how would the remaining

"But, how would the remaining government departments be funded with no tax revenue?"

Who cares? ...Maybe the tax-feeders can get a real job where they offer a product or service that a willing individual can pay for if they want it.

I would like to see: Tax LIEs

The elimination of all federal taxes, income taxes and the other odd ones like property, licensing (s/b free or ended!), estate and so on.

Then replace it with a federal tax (apportioned) on the states. Let the states collect the taxes and get a few good ones to do the following:

Tax LIEs. Good catch phrase, but the reality is that it stands for Leveraged Income Earned. In other words, if you invest money, no tax. If you borrow money and invest it (anything from lending to your neighbor to massive hedge funds), tax. If you create money from fiat and lend that at ANY profit, tax (banks). If you trade stocks and don't own the money you're profiting from, tax.

Make this tax proportional to the amount of skin you have in the game. If none of this leveraged investment is yours, the tax is very high - like 80%. If you borrow the last 10% to invest in something, then the tax is maybe 5%.

So, now we have a way to finally tap the huge financial system which will mean the overall effective tax rate can be way under 2%. We're eliminating the income, sales and exporting taxes so the economy is growing. We're discouraging the derivatives and other financial corruption that robs our economy. We're making the banks become the tax collectors, not the IRS.

...and BEST OF ALL, we're making the individual state legislators fight against other states to compete for less taxes, not more.

23% Communism

The way the "prebate" of the so-called fair tax works, everybody becomes a welfare recipient, Bill Gates and Bowery bum alike. It is twenty-three percent pure communism, for starters. Gary Johnson is a non-starter.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

I love it when people hammer the truth home.

You are exactly right. Aside from the obvious unfairness of the "fair" tax itself the prebate makes us all welfare recipients just as you say.

You know how there are certain people in this country who are raised to depend on getting money out of government. With this Unfair tax and prebate ALL of our children and grandchildren will grow up depending on and expecting to get money out of government.

This sickens me to no end.

Hmmm, let's see 23% national sales tax, 5 to 11% state/local...

...equals 28% to 35% total sales tax. There would be
a huge incentive for everything to go black market.

The typical productive, hard working individual is
taxed at about 60% of their productive efforts right
now. Compare this to 100 years ago. Taxes were
probably one-tenth what they are now. How about 200
years ago. Probably one-twentieth.

Taxes can be reduced just like they were implemented:
gradually, and systematically. All we would see is
a smooth trend to higher productivity and standard of
living.

Right now however we are on the edge of a financial
cliff--about to jump off. Federal spending needs to
be immediately reduced by at least a trillion dollars.

If elected, Ron Paul would do that, as well as reduce
taxes whenever he could.

Individuals, assuming that

Individuals, assuming that the corporate and excise ax burdens fall on them as well, Pay about 22 percent of income in taxes, around 15 of which is federal in nature. This doesn't include payroll tax or mandated unemployment insurance since you get that back.

In 1820, we can approximate that at the federal level, there was a 11% tax burden. No data is readily available for state taxs. In 1920' there was about a 10% federal burden and 5% at other levels.

So the fair tax would increase current federal levels significantly

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

When there's a 23% sales tax,

expect the underground economy to expand exponentially.

New Hampshire and Ecuador.

Sounds good to me...

...maybe that's the idea.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

I loathe the fair tax

If I agree with Johnson on 80%, that Fair Tax position is one of the issues firmly in the other 20% category. I'm all about abolishing the IRS and tax on income. I'm all about repealing the 16th amendment. But that Fair Tax I would do everything in my power to defeat if unable to persuade President Johnson toward a different position on that issue.

But my disagreement with Johnson on the Fair Tax issue isn't relevant in my decision to vote for him or not. None of the 20% of his positions that I disagree with is relevant if there is little chance of him winning. IF I must cast my vote for Johnson I will make that choice based on the number of things I agree with him on not the things I disagree with. Those things I disagree with don't even factor in my choice until he's polling in 2nd place running neck and neck with the front-runner. When that happens, give this thread a bump and you may have a slim chance of persuading me not to vote for Johnson if Paul is not the nominee. Until then there is nothing you could possibly dig up on him that will change that plan.

Don't blame me if in the end I vote for Johnson. Republicans said they were gonna nominate Ron Paul with my help. I did everything that was asked of me, and then some. I lived up to my end, as did many other Libertarians and Constitutionalists. Maybe before talking smack on the nominees of those parties, the Republican end of the deal should live up to their end and git er done.

Fair would be 0%

That is how much the psychopaths and sociopaths deserve for how they use it to fund their killing around the world. Take your fair tax and stick it!!!!

Ron Paul said he would vote for the Fair Tax

Ron Paul has said he would vote for the Fair Tax if it came up for a vote.

Here's a few items worth mentioning:

1. The Fair Tax would get rid of:
a. Income Tax
b. Corporated Tax
c. Estate Tax
d. Capital Gains Tax
e. Payroll Tax
f. Gift Tax

2. Everyone would receive a pre-bate check equal to an amount that anyone with an income at the poverty would not pay any taxes whatsoever. Those below would actual receive money.

3. Taxes are only taxed at the point of sale, not at each intermediate step like a VAT tax. With the cost of producing goods going down due to less taxes, the final price, through market forces, should also go down. Thus if an item costs $100 now, it may cost $80 before taxes.

4. Exports become more attractive overseas since there's no built in tax into those products.

5. Gets government out of our personal records.

6. The tax is transparent... if they want to raise taxes everyone will know.

Everyone who supports the FairTax does so with the understanding that it replaces all of the other Federal taxes. It is revenue neutral which is why Ron Paul isn't overly excited about it, but he does favor the FairTax over our current system. Obviously, if congress added a consumption tax in addition to our existing taxes, then yes this would be disaster, but this isn't what Gary Johnson is proposing. At least Johnson would veto any bill that would propose to add a consumption tax without eliminating the other taxes.

Ron Paul has refused to

Ron Paul has refused to co-sponsor the so called Fair Tax. He has said he would "probably" vote for it if it came up for a vote in the house, but has said he prefers to replace the income tax with nothing and to rely instead on import taxes.

Ron Paul 2012 - It's Almost Here!

You are aware....

...that the Plan to Restore America did not call for the elimination of the income tax?

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

That is true. However, Ron

That is true. However, Ron has been talking about getting rid of the IRS since his very first run for congress.

Ron Paul 2012 - It's Almost Here!

The point is that...

...neither Ron nor Gary's tax proposals are ideal, but they are both steps in the right direction, worthy of our support.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

I cannot support Gary Johnson

I cannot support Gary Johnson or a 23% national sales tax.

Ron Paul 2012 - It's Almost Here!

But you can the support the existing tax system...

...with the minor changes thereto proposed in the Plan to Restore America?

What's your reasoning?

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

Ron's Plan

Yes, Ron's plan didn't touch taxes.

But it cut $1T in spending the first year. Kinda hard to reduce taxes when the belt is tightening that much.

Does Gary propose to cut spending signifcantly?

Well it is very simple. It's

Well it is very simple. It's a personal thing. I work for myself so I have no payroll taxes. I itemize and file a schedule C and usually end up paying very little. I am married with lots of children, which helps. Its a complex system that requires lots of paperwork. However, With a 23% national sales tax, I don't even want to think about what I would be paying. I don't like it one bit.

Of course, I do support Dr. Paul's plan to eliminate income tax and replace it with nothing. However, I cannot support any plan that will vastly INCREASE taxes for my family. I am sure you can understand that.

In short, I support any plan that eliminates or reduces taxes for all. If it can lower my taxes while making it easier to file...That's even better. However, the 23% national sales tax raises taxes on many and turns small businesses into federal tax collectors. It's a bad idea. And don't forget...As time passes....The 23% will only go up.

Ron Paul 2012 - It's Almost Here!

Think how much cheaper

Think how much cheaper products could be produced if their not paying corporate taxes, payroll taxes, tax accountants and tax attorneys, etc. If a company pays $20 in taxes on something they produce for $100, then they could charge less for their product. Also, manufacturer's could export goods at much lower cost which would increase demand for American goods and help create more manufacturing jobs here.

NOT 23%!!!

That GJ section says nothing about the percentage.
But from GJ's speeches he is saying between 15% and 17% Fair Tax NOT 23%.

GJ page links to quote:
Suggested Reading: www.FairTax.org
But that link has nothing to do with his official campaign's stance on the percentage of the tax.

LL on Twitter: http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
sometimes LL can suck & sometimes LL rocks!
http://www.dailypaul.com/203008/south-carolina-battle-of-cow...
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15