Gold standard discussion

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My apologies - I head meant to add this as a comment to the question on Monday about the gold standard, but since I can't find it, I'll just start a new thread.

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Let me start by saying that I'm not what you'd call a "gold bug"; yes, I own some physical gold and silver but will not hesitate to liquidate it if I need to eat or heat my home or get a doctor to look at a wound. Gold and silver are money, but can't really be used for anything else in your daily life.

Money. Money is a hard term to understand. Sometimes money means currency, sometimes it means purchasing power and sometimes it means store of wealth. But one thing money definately is: it's whatever people think it is. This is true of gold or silver or big rocks or paper, the thing only has value if people think it does. The reason people like gold so much is because it has the longest run as "money" in human history and it's somewhat rare and impossible to manufature or duplicate. In the discussion of the gold standard, many people talk about it as a store of wealth, and some talk about it as a currency, but few talk about it in terms of purchasing power. For example: one ounce of gold at the turn of the 20th century could buy a nice suit, a hat, a fine cigar, a good meal, a night of drinks at the tavern and still leave you with change in your pocket. Today, an ounce of gold can buy you a nice suit, a hat, a fine cigar, a good meal, a night of drinks at the club and still leave you with change in your pocket. The purchasing power of gold hasn't varied much in the last few thousand years. I wanted to talk about purchasing power and how inflation works against it, both with a gold standard (historically) and under our current fiat system.

I'd like to start by printing a short history of currency in the US. The dates have been borrowed from a variety of sources, including the Federal Reserve:

1775 - The first "United States" currency was issued - the Continental Currency (was fiat and used to pay for the Revolutionary War. Went inflationary so fast, we needed a loan from France to actually pay for stuff towards the end of the War.)

1785 - The US Dollar is established as the unit of currency for these United States, issued by individual banks (the end result of the Continentals inflation and eventual worthlessness was incorporated into the Constitution as Article 1, Section 10, "...coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts...")

1861 - First Federally authorized currency created, the Greenback (used to finance the Civil War, has the distinction of still being redeemable as face value if you happen to find one in circulation.) Currency revaluation #1

1913 - The progressive income tax is instituted as part of the Federal Reserve Act (originally stated as never more than 1 or 2% of yearly income.)

1916 - The Federal Reserve opens it's doors for business (which is neither Federal nor has any reserve.)

1934 - Private ownership of gold made illegal (gold bullion and coins were taken and federal reserve notes issued instead with the promise to redeem them for lawful money.) - Currency revaluation #2

1963 - Federal Reserve notes were issued with no promise to pay in “lawful money” (but were still redeemable internationally for gold.) Currency revaluation #3

1965 - The US Mint gave us these copper sandwich things in place of silver coins (but they still kinda looked like silver coins.)

1971 - Nixon closed the international gold window (and yet people still treated them as if they were worth something.)

Now, the nature of our currency reflects the value of our currency. We had gold and silver in circulation in the past - which guaranteed value in a foreign land regardless of the exchange rate - but currently have base metal replicas that have little intrinsic value. The face value of our currency is the same; once, you could redeem your paper for gold, now it's just paper. I've put together a short chart of wage and price inflation throughout US history, with some bullets mentioning major events that affect money. Unfortunately, due to lack of records there isn't really any way to account for US Inflation prior to 1800 so I'll run inflation rates from 1800 through the currency milestones.

Inflation Percentage:

--Decade-- Wages Prices
1800-1810: 32% 8.5%
1810-1820: -24% -2.5%
1820-1830: 0% -30.5%
1830-1840: 4.2% -.1%
1840-1850: 15.3% -22%
1850-1860: 17.5% -7.5%
1860-1870: 29.5% 32.5% <---- Civil War; first currency revaluation
1870-1880: -18.3% -30%
1880-1890: 16% -3.5%
1890-1900: 1.5% -7.4%
1900-1910: 18.6% 7.4%
1910-1920: 273% 48% <----- WWI; establishment of the Federal Reserve
1920-1930: -9.5% -1% <---- Great Depression begins in 1930
1930-1940: 21.8% -19% <--- Ownership of gold made illegal; Great Depression ends in 1939; second currency revaluation
1940-1950: 218.4% 42% <---- WWII
1950-1960: 40.1% 19%
1960-1970: 34.6% 20.5% <--- Fed no longer backs dollars with gold domestically; third currency revaluation
1970-1980: 220.1% 49.5% <--- Nixon removes gold convertability internationally
1980-1990: 32.7% 41.5%
1990-2000: 27.4% 25.5%
2000-2006: 15% 14.6% (last data available in 2006)

Bear in mind that the wage rate is based on unskilled labor and the price rate is based on the official CPI. So, if you look at the years leading up to 1934, you have 700% wage inflation and 24% price deflation compounded. From 1934 to 1971, you have nearly 800% wage inflation with only 300% price inflation. But, from 1971 to 2006 you only have 480% wage inflation with a price inflation rate of over 500% - your purchasing power is being eroded away.

Taking a different track, let's look at some averages in 1934, the year we went off the gold standard domestically:

Average wages per year $1,600.00

Average Cost of new house $5,970.00 (370% of wages)
Average Cost of a gallon of Gas 10 cents (.006% of wages)
Average Monthly Rent $20.00 per month (1.25% of wages)
Studebaker Truck $625.00 (39% of wages)

Now let's look at the same averages in 1971, the year we went of the gold standard internationally and became a true fiat currency:

Average Income per year $10,600.00

Average Cost of new house $25,250.00 (238% of wages)
Average Cost of a gallon of Gas 40 cents (.0037% of wages)
Average Monthly Rent $150.00 (1.4% of wages)
Datsun 1200 Sports Coupe $1,866.00 (17.6% of wages)

Now lets look at some averages in 2006:

Average wages per year $44,472

Average Cost Of a new house $299,900 (673% of wages)
Average Cost of a gallon of Gas $2.90 (.006% of wages)
Average Monthly Rent $991.00 per month (2.2% of wages)
Average Cost of a new car $24,400 (54.8% of wages)

So, the "average American" didn't do too bad as far as their purchasing power is concerned once we went off the gold standard domestically. While inflation rose faster than before, wage inflation rose faster than price inflation. However, once we floated the currency completely, price inflation greatly exceeded wage inflation, especially for assets.

What does all this mean? When a currency has an asset backing it, only major events like a war or a national emergency causes price inflation, while wage inflation will naturally increase as goods are produced to collect more of the backing asset (which creates more "money"). It's the incidents like a war that an asset backed currency is thought of as "inflexible" because it doesn't easily allow for borrowing from the future to pay for a critical situation today. When fiat currency is managed as if it has an asset backing (from 1934-1971), then fiat can function; the currency has more flexibility and can respond more readily to catastrophe or war. Once the currency isn't managed as if it has an asset backing, fiat tends to wobble and spiral out of control (1971-2006). Once the printing presses are on full time, pretty much everything is treated as an "emergency".

I hope that helps some folks in understanding what all this talk about a gold standard means.

- Mixer

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If you bought 100,000.00

If you bought 100,000.00 dollars worth of gold in 1913 you would have had
5000 ounces of gold.. today 5000 ounces of gold is worth 4,417,500.00..

"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson

I am more concerned about the return of my money than the return on my money. --Mark Twain

“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)

Hey McCain-----┌П┐(◣_◢)┌П┐

It realy?

It realy?

Thanks for the work. One question. OK, maybe two.

My friend (an actuary) continues to be resistant to the idea of a gold standard. He still feels that it is unnecessarily risky to tie our currency to a commodity. He keeps insisting that a fiat monetary system could provide all of the advantages of a gold backed currency IF the issuers were constrained to limit the money supply (i.e. "managed as if it has an asset backing").

Question: Does not your analysis support my friend's conclusion that a "sound money" system could be created without resorting to a gold standard?

Is there any objection to such a system other than that human nature (greed) would inevitably undermine the artificial discipline underpinning such a system?

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Natural Law and Natural Rights

http://jim.com/rights.html

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."

Oh, absolutely.

It's not the gold specifically (or the silver, or the land or the big rocks or whatever) that is the important thing - it's the constraints put upon the people to stick to the system. If a group of people could be identified that would manage a currency under the same constraints of an asset-backed currency, and we could ensure that that group is both immortal and incorruptable, then that fiat system would work just fine. The problem is, of course, that there is no possible way to ensure those two qualities. Even if we identify an incorruptable person or group, they must eventually die and there is no guarantee their replacements will have the same incorruptability. As soon as you get that sliver of greed into the mix, it's the beginning of the end for fiat systems. Even under a sound system, people try to debase the metals or issue paper claiming it has backing when it doesn't. Like having a system of laws that are independent of the whims of individuals, sound money is independent of the whims of individuals. Fiat money is like having laws that apply to everyone but the King, and the King can change them when he wishes.

Still very good stuff!

Still very good stuff!

That is great information

Thanks a bunch for taking the time to post that way back in January.

Why Gold

Because it can't be reproduced on a printing press, that's why.

I believe the time is short before you will need gold to buy food.

Deb

yep... look at

yep... look at zimbabwe.

"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson

I am more concerned about the return of my money than the return on my money. --Mark Twain

“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)

Hey McCain-----┌П┐(◣_◢)┌П┐

The dollar is not about to make any kind of significant

"comeback" this year. During about the 1st week of August of last year, the U.S. dollar index was about 80, which was the declared "cellar"; the lowest point to which the dollar would be allowed to slip until the Fed took steps to "defend the dollar". With the exception of a brief period in November/December of 2007, it has continued to go down and, with the Fed now saying that they will probably lower the interest rate again, that downward spiral will continue......and we haven't even really engaged other parts of the subprime mess thus far; the subprime automobile and consumer credit mountain of debt. How much money will have to be printed/created in order to keep that market afloat?

I fully expect (and I have bet on) the dollar index to be no more than 40 by mid-2009, give or take. That will mean that the dollar will have lost about half its early-August 2007 value, which was by no means high. If you think that the dollar is going to make a genuine comeback, then it would in your best interest to start buying them. ie: start putting your money into dollar-denominated investments. Alan Greenspan might have sold you some of his dollar-denominated investments, but he got out of the dollar before mid-2007. When you get your statement telling you how many dollars you've made, then see how much you can purchase with your newly discovered wealth, versus the time when you made your original investment. If you're really better off, then I'm happy for you. You will have made a good call. We'll wait and compare notes; assuming that it doesn't all come crashing down on us before then. Good luck to all.

If anybody is going to buy Metals!!!

If you are going to invest in Gold or Silver, you have to read this and understand it. I have been investing for a long time...but you can't think of it as Investing.....I keep looking at how much money I have made investing in precious metals...and I am wrong...I am not making anything....all I am doing is maintaining my wealth...getting rid of worthless photocopied pieces of paper for real money. Real money is Silver and GOLD!!

PLEASE You need to read this and understand it. You need to print it out and LIVE by IT. Dollars are not money! Gold and Silver ARE real money worldwide.

Now what I am going to show you, has some investment terms in it that you may not understand....but research each term you don't understand, and it will become clear as day.

MUST READ.... I Framed my copy!!!

http://www.silverstrategies.com/publications/ThinkandSTOP.pdf

Once again, the people of

Once again, the people of this country are poised to elect another President and yet, from all the candidates there is only one that is addressing one of the most pressing issues this country is facing and that is its failing monetary system.

Consider this: a person making $32,000 per year today has the equivalent purchasing power of $5,907.40 in1970 dollars. So, the same person making $15.38 per hour today is equal to making $2.84 per hour in real purchasing power in 1970 dollars. It is not the price of goods and services that have risen, but the purchasing power of our dollar that has been so drastically reduced that it simply does not buy what it once did because it has been debased by the Federal Reserve and our government.

Our standard of living has been effectively reduced through fiat money inflation. It’s your money, your labor and yet we all just stand by and let this government continue to siphon off our prosperity.

Is there any wonder that poverty is becoming rampant? The government has no other choice but enforce minimum wages in order to keep the working poor at some level of subsistence. At the current $5.85 per hour a person has the same 1970 purchasing power of $1.08 per hour, at 40 hours per week that person is effectively making $43.20 per week to make ends meet.

I can tell you this, if Ron Paul is not elected in 2008, then no matter who becomes President, by 2012 we will all wish that Ron Paul was sitting in the White House.

http://1776solution.blogspot.com

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

Per Capita GDP

The statistic nobody knows :) Yeah, we're not looking good when you look at the per capita GDP - a person with national average salary of $1,858.00 in 1931 had the economic status of over $132,000 in today's dollars and the purchasing power of over $320,000. Not many people make over $130k per year nor have the economic influence of a third of a million dollars, yet $1,858.00 was the average. Today, the average is $44,765.00, which is the same as making $626.81 in 1931, with the purchasing power of $259.54.

But, Ron Paul is "crazy" for wanting to return us to a gold standard.

- Mixer

Great paper on the gold

Great paper on the gold standard -

http://www.professorfekete.com/articles%5CAEFFiatCurrencyDes...

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Thomas Jefferson

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Thomas Jefferson

Gold vs. Fiat

From here: http://www.amerfx.com/why_precious_metals.php

"...if we had lived in ancient Rome with a one ounce gold coin we would've been able to buy a very fine toga, a hand-crafted belt and a pair of sandals--that was the price in Rome. Today, if we have a one ounce gold coin what can we buy with it? We can go into any men's store and buy a very fine suit, a hand-crafted belt and a pair of shoes. The price of these items hasn't changed in thousands of years when expressed in terms of real money but when expressed in terms of these things we carry around in our pockets called Federal Reserve notes which is not really money at all, fiat money anyway, the prices keep going up and up and up because the value of those units keeps going down and down and down because they keep making more and more and more of them and dumping them into the economic soup." - G. Edward Griffin, Author of The Creature from Jekyll Island - A Second Look At The Federal Reserve

...let it not be said that we did nothing.
-Ron Paul

There is no such thing as "wage inflation"

or "price inflation", there is just good old inflation, which is an increase in the money supply.
I have a silver dollar, it would buy between 4 and five gallons of gas when it was minted in 1921, it will still buy between 4 and 5 gallons of gas.
Fiat currency = inflation
don't over complicate things with foolish Keynesian nonsense.
Austrian economics is simple clear, and most important, correct!

When you look at inflation through the purchasing power lens..

..there is. Yes, your silver dollar has maintained it's purchasing power, but how many of those silver dollars would you have earned in a day back in 1921 versus how many silver dollars worth of value to you make today? If, back in 1921, I made 10 dollars a day, then buying gasoline would take 10% of my daily income. But, if I make 25 dollar-equivalents today, then only 4% of my daily income goes to buying gas, freeing up the other 6% to buy something else, save, bury in the backyard, or whatever (which is exactly what happened in the US during it's first 100 years - wages increased while prices decreased.) Just looking at raw monetary inflation is overly simplistic. That's why I started this thread - to talk about the purchasing power angle to the gold standard.

A new standard

Yes folks throw away that gold and silver, we have a new standard:
http://blip.tv/file/520347

The Dollar will make a come back this year...

...gold and sliver will be thrown into the streets as trash in just a few years. Pay off your home,pay off your bills,buy land in the country, stock up on food, then live knowing your ready for anything.

Here's a web site to help:

http://www.zombiehunters.org/faq.php

January 03,2008.
"A people can move through the ages, and not disrupt time. A single man can take this movement of people and change history" Saul4Paul on Ron Paul, the coming civil war.

G_d bless
Attend a Church of your choice this Saturday

Wow even more crazy then

Gold going to the moon crowd. Congrats. Don't try to be conservative or anything go for the very extream.

Check back in 2010 and let me know how you're doing.

January 03,2008.
"A people can move through the ages, and not disrupt time. A single man can take this movement of people and change history" Saul4Paul on Ron Paul, the coming civil war.

G_d bless
Attend a Church of your choice this Saturday