77 votes

SHOCKER: Frightened Commissars DELETE the Death Penalty portion from Coinage Act of 1792 Wiki Entry!

Here is Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul discussing what the penalty for violation of the Coinage Act of 1792 was, live on national TV:

1792 Coinage Act - Death Penalty For Counterfeiting

Uploaded by RunToGoldDotCom on Apr 3, 2011

http://www.runtogold.com/2008/01/1792-coinage-act/

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Apparently, 'someone' is very, very, very worried...

But, the statists simply cannot erase documented history:

Penalty on debasing the coins.

Section 19.

And be it further enacted, That if any of the gold or silver coins which shall be struck or coined at the said mint shall be debased or made worse as to the proportion of fine gold or fine silver therein contained, or shall be of less weight or value than the same ought to be pursuant to the directions of this act, through the default or with the connivance of any of the officers or persons who shall be employed at the said mint, for the purpose of profit or gain, or otherwise with a fraudulent intent, and if any of the said officers or persons shall embezzle any of the metals which shall at any time be committed to their charge for the purpose of being coined, or any of the coins which shall be struck or coined at the said mint, every such officer or person who shall commit any or either of the said offences, shall be deemed guilty of felony, and shall suffer death..

Though try, as they might; apparently, some statist commissar turd noticed that the 'peons' were getting uppity, because apparently someone actually got scared enough of what the said 'uppity peons' may do, or perhaps worried that the pissed off citizenry may call for a return of the appropriate punishment for debasing currency, that SOMEONE apparently ERASED the penalty portion of it, from Wikipedia!

I should know, because I referenced that link many times!

As the above Constitution.org link clearly verifies to be the same, it used to read, as follows:

Quality control measures were implemented in that from each separate mass of gold or silver used to produce coins, three coins were set aside by the treasurer. Each year on the last Monday in July, under the inspection of the Chief Justice, the Secretary and Comptroller of the Treasury, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General, the coins were to be assayed and if the coins did not meet established standards, the officers were disqualified from office. Further, specified in section 19, the penalty for fraud or embezzlement by officers or employees of the mint, or of debasing or making the currency to "be of less weight or value" was death.

Now, it reads as:

Quality control measures were implemented in that from each separate mass of gold or silver used to produce coins, three coins were set aside by the treasurer. Each year on the last Monday in July, under the inspection of the Chief Justice, the Secretary and Comptroller of the Treasury, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General, the coins were to be assayed and if the coins did not meet established standards, the officers were disqualified from office. The meetings later became formalized as the United States Assay Commission.

LOL!!!!

Talk about a telling zeitgeist! Think it's safe to say that they know that we know what they know.o)

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UPDATE 1: Wow, that was quick; apparently someone noticed, and fixed it, back to listing the death penalty section!

Courtesy of TomJefferson! Thanks for the heads up.

Now, it reads as follows, again:

Quality control measures were implemented in that from each separate mass of gold or silver used to produce coins, three coins were set aside by the treasurer. Each year on the last Monday in July, under the inspection of the Chief Justice, the Secretary and Comptroller of the Treasury, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General, the coins were to be assayed and if the coins did not meet established standards, the officers were disqualified from office. Further, specified in section 19, the penalty for fraud or embezzlement by officers or employees of the mint, or of debasing or making the currency to "be of less weight or value" was death. The meetings later became formalized as the United States Assay Commission.

Ooh those sneaky statist Keynesian rascals!

UPDATE 2: Wow, again; apparently the factual history of the penalty clause IS a contentious one, to some statist Keynesian Wiki contributors, because it was re-re-re-edited, once more!

Now, it reads as follows, again, plus; because, the following,

The death penalty for counterfeiting was repealed in 1806.

was just added:

...Further, specified in section 19, the penalty for fraud or embezzlement by officers or employees of the mint, or of debasing or making the currency to "be of less weight or value" was death. The death penalty for counterfeiting was repealed in 1806. The meetings later became formalized as the United States Assay Commission.

LOL, truly, those sneaky statist Keynesian rascals!

UPDATE 3: An interesting historical context, courtesy of Mark Twain

US Coin History: The First US Mint

The early years of US Mint history were difficult indeed. Political differences over the fate of the Philadelphia Mint helped cement our two party system.

We also present the story of the 1804 silver dollar, one of the most famous coins in United States numismatic lore.

The "Coins & History Chapters" button at upper right opens up other units in our US Coins & History section. The links directly below are sub headings in "The First US Mint" chapter.

UPDATE 4: Did I say how much I love y'all?? Apparently a R3VOL with good Wiki edit standing clarified it! You crafty bunch, you!

Now, it reads as follows, plus a whole new paragraph!:

Quality control measures were implemented in that from each separate mass of gold or silver used to produce coins, three coins were set aside by the treasurer. Each year on the last Monday in July, under the inspection of the Chief Justice, the Secretary and Comptroller of the Treasury, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General, the coins were to be assayed and if the coins did not meet established standards, the officers were disqualified from office. The meetings later became formalized as the United States Assay Commission, which continued meeting until it was disbanded in 1980.

Section 19 of the Act established a penalty of death for debasing the gold or silver coins authorized by the Act, or embezzlement of the metals for those coins, by officers or employees of the mint; this section of the Act apparently remains in effect and would, in theory, continue to apply in the case of "any of the gold or silver coins which shall be struck or coined at the said mint." (At present the only gold and silver coins struck by the US mint are the American Silver Eagle and the American Gold Eagle coins.) All other sections of the act have been superseded, as for example the Coinage Act of 1834 changing the silver-to-gold weight ratio. Various acts have subsequently been passed affecting the amount and type of metal in U. S. coins, so that today there is no legal definition of the term "dollar" to be found in U. S. statute.[4][5][6] Current statutes regulating coinage in the United States may be found in Title 31 of the United States Code.




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okay, who's the really WISE guy/gal?

apparently, a r3VOL corrected it, with a whole new paragraph added for clarification to boot.o)

UPDATE 4: Did I say how much I love y'all?? Apparently a R3VOL with good Wiki edit standing clarified it! You crafty bunch, you!

Now, it reads as follows, plus a whole new paragraph!:

Quality control measures were implemented in that from each separate mass of gold or silver used to produce coins, three coins were set aside by the treasurer. Each year on the last Monday in July, under the inspection of the Chief Justice, the Secretary and Comptroller of the Treasury, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General, the coins were to be assayed and if the coins did not meet established standards, the officers were disqualified from office. The meetings later became formalized as the United States Assay Commission, which continued meeting until it was disbanded in 1980.

Section 19 of the Act established a penalty of death for debasing the gold or silver coins authorized by the Act, or embezzlement of the metals for those coins, by officers or employees of the mint; this section of the Act apparently remains in effect and would, in theory, continue to apply in the case of "any of the gold or silver coins which shall be struck or coined at the said mint." (At present the only gold and silver coins struck by the US mint are the American Silver Eagle and the American Gold Eagle coins.) All other sections of the act have been superseded, as for example the Coinage Act of 1834 changing the silver-to-gold weight ratio. Various acts have subsequently been passed affecting the amount and type of metal in U. S. coins, so that today there is no legal definition of the term "dollar" to be found in U. S. statute.[4][5][6] Current statutes regulating coinage in the United States may be found in Title 31 of the United States Code.

Predictions in due Time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDisyWkIBM

"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it's realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." - Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul

Again I think it is incorrect

even the cited USC 31 proves it.
What is in the USC 31 is often funny, especially the §5112 where we can find such real curriosities like:
(7) A fifty dollar gold coin that is 32.7 millimeters in diameter, weighs 33.931 grams, and contains one troy ounce of fine gold. (one toz costs 1615$ now)
(8) A twenty-five dollar gold coin that is 27.0 millimeters in diameter, weighs 16.966 grams, and contains one-half troy ounce of fine gold.
(9) A ten dollar gold coin that is 22.0 millimeters in diameter, weighs 8.483 grams, and contains one-fourth troy ounce of fine gold.
(10) A five dollar gold coin that is 16.5 millimeters in diameter, weighs 3.393 grams, and contains one-tenth troy ounce of fine gold.
(11) A $50 gold coin that is of an appropriate size and thickness, as determined by the Secretary, weighs 1 ounce, and contains 99.99 percent pure gold.
(12) A $25 coin of an appropriate size and thickness, as determined by the Secretary, that weighs 1 troy ounce and contains .9995 fine palladium. (one toz palladium costs 605$ now)

I wonder whether some guys in the US govt. are paid by this gold and palladium coins or not... I bet yes.

The valid Art. I sec. 10 of the US Constitution says that States must not do anything than gold and silver be a legal tender in payment of debts which I strongly think supersedes the USC 31 §5103 about legal tender, because of art. VI second clause of the US Constitution jurisdiction supremacy - the USA is constituted by States not the States by USA. So if States ratified that they must not do something the feds shouldn't do it for them either, especially when it is so obviously wrong.

Obviously there is legal definition (quite confused one) of the term "dollar" to be found in U. S. statute. And if 50$ is one toz gold this money is much better then the paper money where for 50$ one buys only 0.03 toz of gold.

Apparently The Distortion Of True History,,,

Has been going on for a very long time.

I heard that John D. Rockefeller bought the encyclopedia Britannica company long ago, simply to change some previous writings in their books that he didn't agree with.

Which makes me believe that "ALL" these ancient writings and translations have been changed in meanings over time,,,as the english and other languages change the meanings of words over time.

beesting

1792. Shock of shocks! Anyone off the street may mint US coin.

Newly appointed United States Mint Officer: Gentlemen, gentlemen! A call to order. The new United States mint is now open. Please sit down. Wait your turn.

Let me be clear... We have no gold nor silver coin here already minted for you . May I see what you have in those bags you carried with you? ... Yes. We are the United States Mint... We will mint using your metal... No charge... No fee... Free!

Who will be first?
===========================================================================

The United States Begins Minting Coins
Mint Director David Rittenhouse

David Rittenhouse, at age 60 and in poor health, reluctantly agreed to become the first Mint Director. He held the office three years with great dedication, sometimes paying Mint debts out of his own pocket. Engraving by Edward Savage, based on 1796 portrait by Charles Willson Peale. Public domain image.

Not until three years after the Constitution was put into effect in 1789 did the newly seated Congress again take up the coinage issue. Finally, on April 2, 1792, Congress approved an Act requiring coins to be minted bearing the words "United States of America" and "an impression emblematic of liberty, with an inscription of the word Liberty, and the year of the coinage...". This was the first major step in establishing our national coinage system.

The Act authorized the salary of the Director of the Mint, who was to receive two thousand dollars annually, and other mint officials. President Washington appointed a famous scientist and philosopher named David Rittenhouse to be the first Director, a man widely respected for his professionalism and integrity.

The first mint in Philadelphia As this 1920 painting by Edwin Lamazure depicts, the original Philadelphia mint facility (circa 1794)... The three-story building stood until it was razed in 1911....

The 1792 Act also mandated the construction of a new minting facility for the United States, the first buildings erected for public use under the Constitution. Located at Seventh Street and Filbert in Philadelphia... the first building... summer of 1792....

The new law permitted anyone with gold and silver bullion to come in off the street to the Mint and have it coined free of charge. The Mint would have preferred an exchange program, trading coins held in reserve in return for private bullion, but since Congress did not establish a Mint bullion fund, a quick exchange program was not possible. Unfortunately, most potential depositors did not care to wait for their bullion to be coined, and consequently, few coins entered circulation in this fashion.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

thank you!

updating...

Predictions in due Time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDisyWkIBM

"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it's realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." - Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul

Very interesting

It was a service, rather than a master.

said death sentence should be

said death sentence should be a public hanging

18th century jurisprudence differed from modern times.

Interestingly, as an indication how 18th century jurisprudence differed from modern times, any mint employee found guilty of embezzling any sum or engaging in any fraudulent Mint-related activity for profit, was to receive the death penalty. Nowadays, this sort of criminal behavior is actually treated in some circles as qualification for a higher position in life!

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

hold a lottery for who gets to pull the levers, and . . .

it would balance the budget

The death penalty for fraud or embezzlement was repealed in 1806

It is a good practice to research before making references to enacting death sentences. At least one should know a tiny bit about the subject before (re-)acting like a fool.

According to Ninth Congress, Session I, Ch. 50, 1806, the penalty for counterfeiting is guilty of felony, imprisonment and hard labor for 3 to 10 years, or imprisonment for up to 5 years and a fine of $5,000.

For those who did not bother to read the aforementioned Wikipedia article, the LOC.GOV link in *this* post can also be found there.

yes, that's why it's good to know that the thread was in

reference to the penalty clause of the Coinage Act of 1792, NOT 1806, no matter how much you want it to be.

"At least one should know a tiny bit about the subject before (re-)acting like a fool."

Yes, at least one should actually read a tiny bit on the actual text of the thread, and the bill made in reference to "before (re-)acting like a fool." Because a "fool" would be someone who doesn't read, pretends to not know what it was written about, and proceeds to critique it as if it were written about something else, no?

Predictions in due Time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDisyWkIBM

"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it's realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." - Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul

Yes, Sir. I agree with you. You are correct.

Glad to find out that the verbiage of the Wikipedia article was corrected.

it is not just a critique

it is barefaced lie - the 1806 Act he cites doesn't repeal nor supersedes the sec. 19 of 1792 Coinage Act, because the 1806 Act deals with other crimes as false making, forgery and counterfeiting, not in any way with debasing value of coin in collusion with the mint "for profit, gain or otherwise with fraudulent intent".

Debasing is something else than counterfeiting - it is why there are the two different words for different things -clear to school kids, so why not to the infamous Wikipedia editors...

To debase? Or not to debase? That is the question...

Whether tis nobler to....
US Coinage Act, 1792.

Standard for silver coins--alloy how to be regulated.

Section 13. And be it further enacted, That the standard for all silver coins of the United States, shall be one thousand four hundred and eighty-five parts fine to one hundred and seventy-nine parts alloy; and
accordingly that one thousand four hundred and eighty-five parts in one thousand six hundred and sixty-four parts of the entire weight of each of the said coins shall consist of pure silver, and the remaining alloy one hundred and seventy-nine parts of alloy; which alloy shall be wholly of copper.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Continue reading the other sections at link provided. The 1792 Coinage Act is brief & written in clear terms.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

Yeah

Nice are also the currency definitions in the sec. 9.
Very important is also the silver/gold ratio in the sec. 11 - which actually means there was originally a bimetalic system, not gold standard (introduced 1873) in USA. My opinion is that what made the US currency very stable throughout the first century was the very exactly defined bimetalic system which is quite immune to inflation and also the fact that US dollar wasn't the only allowed legal tender in USA until 1857, so the dollar needed to compete with other currencies.

I generally agree with what you write about this subject.

The gold & silver bimetalic system stead us well for a century.

Any minor points may be settled over a friendly game of billiards.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

What I think was beginning of the end

was making the dollar only allowed legal tender 1857, outsourcing of the trade dollar production to China 1870's, foreign silver inflation and the subsequent gold standard introduction 1873, which made US dollar dependent on foreign resources of gold.
- If a country wants to have stable currency it must base it on something the country has - and that was mainly the silver in the case of USA, which USA even now mines 5 times more than gold - even the price of the silver (the silver/gold price ratio now is 1:57 which is quite off the natural abundance ratio) is after demonetization still too low for this mining to be much profitable.
Just by rule of thumb if there would be the bimetalic system now in USA and silver monetized and its prices derived from natural abundance gold/silver ratio 1:~10 and the domestic silver minig up accordingly, then because the domestic gold production was 7,550,000 oz and silver 35,000,000 oz (2011) then the annual inflation of the currency base value in circulation would be 12,193,250,000+<(((57/10)*35,000,000)*(1615/10))=<44,412,500,000$ which is <~0.3% USA GDP (2011) - so the dollar currency would lose only like 30% value in 100 years not 2000+% with the fiat money, the silver price would be more fair for domestic silver producers, the consumer prices on the market would go down with rising production effectivity... much like in the first USA century.
If there would be the original 1:15 ratio from the 1792 Coinage Act kep, then in todays prices the annual inflation of the currency base value in circulation would be 12,193,250,000+(((57/15)*35,000,000)*(1615/15))=26,512,916,666$ which is <0.18% USA GDP.

GDP: A national estimate of what was spent each year.

GDP is a summation of spending estimates. Included are goods & servives. Goods estimates are based on sales receipts. Services are estimates of other estimates; a derivative estimate.

    Just by rule of thumb if there would be the bimetalic system now in USA and silver monetized and its prices derived from natural abundance gold/silver ratio 1:~10 and the domestic silver minig up accordingly, then because the domestic gold production was 7,550,000 oz and silver 35,000,000 oz (2011) then the annual inflation of the currency base value in circulation would be 12,193,250,000+<32,917,500,000=<45,110,750,000$ which is <~0.3% USA GDP (2011) - so the dollar currency would lose only like 30% value in 100 years not 2000+% with the fiat money, the silver price would be more fair for domestic silver producers, the consumer prices on the market would go down with rising production effectivity... much like in the first USA century. - Tumetuestumefai... - DailyPaul Member on USA gold & silver currency, 2012

Spoke to historical marker artisans. They agreed what much of what you wrote is historically accurate; however, they suggested that over 100% of silver production is used up each year. Little is leftover for coining. None is left on the docks abandoned... Given up with no bidders.

Here is an edit suggested for your historical marker.

    US Monetary System (1792 - 1913)
    Here lies the remains of the of what is left to be circulated. Survived by the US Nickel; still worth its weight in nickel (25% nickel; 75% copper).
          RIP

Historical marker proposed for the front entrances to the last remaining silver mines in Nevada, Idaho & Alaska, USA. Best wishes. With my sympathies...

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

Yeah, you're right

With the current silver mining absolute numbers. But given the proven&probable silver reserves in USA I think the reason why the production is so low is that the silver prices are artificially low, so the miners have not much incentive to extract more and it is cheaper to import and on the other hand the usage of silver is high because it is very cheap on US market relatively to its given natural scarcity and purchasing power in USA.
In fact the silver reserves which are not so high anymore in USA would allow ground mining of the purely hypothetical amount for the original 1792 bimetalic ratio perpetuation only another ~20 years from now and the inflation would gradually stop, while the value of the currency would naturally soar. Better would be of course to amend the ratio to current proven&probable USA reserves gold/silver ratio (change from 1792 1:15)

Of course better than silver or gold standard would be the bimetalic system. The future depletion of resources would naturally compensate for the inflation. It could be also possible to make it into more trimetalic system with nickel (which practically is anyway there) instead of copper for under dollar values in nickel/silver alloy. Standard nickel metal costs about 48 cents/toz now. But it was already on double value in 2007. Also the remonetization of gold and silver for trade purposes would most probably push the gold prices high up and the hidden gold reserves back to circulation. It is not viable to mine gold nor silver from the sea water, so still only land/oceanbed reserves would be viable for mining which is good, because the production unpredictability is therefore much lower.

For almost everybody this would be the way out - because all would make merited profit - the people and banks having silver will see the big appreciation back to natural abundance ratio, the people and banks having gold would see minor appreciation because of gold monetization, the banks would be able to continue fractional reserve risk, but only with notes not redeemable in gold&silver (backed by other physical values and their derivatives as of now, bonds bought until decisive date would not be redeemable), the relative consumer prices (except of gold&silver) would rest more or less the same and will rest there in the long run, the currencies could again compete on inner market maybe creating new types of commodity currencies based in my opinion especially on Uranium238 and Thorium232 as future energy sources for at least millenias - much more viable than depleting petro resources, the market will continue on paper currency, but the currency of gold/silver certificates will in my opinion win the competition and only who would surely lose is the FED which would become superfluous and its unmerited interest profits from crediting fiat money would fall under zero, so the FED would soon quit the system without anybody pushing it. Also those who would not convert their savings to gold/silver currency ASAP will of course lose most of them. ...and the NWO guys would have their world currency without moving a finger. ;)

Only what you would need is one decisive day of federal gold/silver monopoly where the silver/gold dollar value will be fairly fixed on the then current silver/gold global prices (while the old debts and derivatives will NOT be redeemable in the new currency, or disadvantageous ratio would be enacted, because the credit was created by fiat with no promise to redeem whatsoever) - which I'm sure the market would push up to real value and speculants even higher (loosers in this gamble will effectively pay part of the national debt) before the reform eventually would happen - because it would take considerable time for a bill to pass the Congress and president - and everybody would then wish it passed - otherwise the global gold/silver markets would immediately crash.
Alternatively this could be done by States, but then the reform would be much less fair.

This wayback to gold/silver standard anyway in my opinion will to some extent happen and is happening (Lakotas, Utah), the fiat system is not tenable as only legal tender for much longer, and if continued it will lead to USA effective bankruptcy and decay. So what I would recommend is to buy gold for very safe investment and silver for potentially even considerably profitable investment in the long run.

I absolutely refuse the old myth that the way back to gold/silver standard is impossible because there is not enough gold and silver. There is ~5trillion in todays $ in circulation globally so then if the HALF of provingly existing gold (160,000 metric tons - and most probably even considerably more) and silver would be converted to natural abundance ratio bimetalic currencies then if the reform would happen in one year from now then I estimate the decisive day real gold price to 5,000,000,000,000/((160,000,000/2)*(1000/31.153)) = ~2000$/toz and silver 160-210$/toz.
So in fact there clearly is enough gold and silver to convert all currencies in the world into gold/silver bimetalic currencies at the more or less current gold price (+ fees for administration and minting) and the silver price would soar ~5-7 fold even before the bimetalic system enacted - in the expectation of the final ratio.
It's of course only a hypothetical ideal example, but already at the first sight it clearly proves the way back with todays gold price is not impossible and for USA is perfectly possible tomorrow. -The USA would benefit from this because it has the largest bullion reserves and as soon as they do it the more profitable it would be for both USA and bullion keepers and would make considerable comparative advantage for them. So I really don't understand what's the problem, except maybe the FED, ECB and like owners are too powerful crooks than is sane - because it looks they rather allow a full-blown fascism and civil war in USA and Europe and possibly even global nuclear war then end their stupid ponzi schemes which robbed the dollar value 21 times in the last century - which I definitely agree with the 1792 Coinage Act somebody should be hanged for.

T'was a pleasure. Thank you for yor insight.

Took me most the afternoon to follow your numbers. Seems gold & silver will remain a strong preference. I like your comments on nickel. I save US nickels... No fees, commissions, nor tax. If nickel price rises sharply compared to than other things of interest, I make out good; if nickel metal values hovers around 5¢ I still have 5¢ value.

As for the price of anything in demand, such as gold, silver & other coinage metals, sharp rises in price are due; elementally certain.
Paper "legal tender" prices are volatile. No telling what the faith & confidence will be in paper-currencies.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

It is not too complicated in my opinion

Just for explanation I studied this since 2006 when I was introduced into the problem when I was asked to translate Money as Debt documentary into the Czech language. It was after some studiyng to me quite clear even then that the major crisis will come soon, which I predicted then on 4th July 2007 "one year from now" in Czech quite exceptionally often linked article "100th anniversary of the bigest scam in history".
In the beginning it looked to me complicated, but after some time I began to understand that in fact the whole thing is quite simple and it is possible to explain it to a high-school kid including raw numbers.
There's arguably well enough gold and silver for backing the bimetalic currencies in whole the world. Moreover all that can be made on voluntary basis and the silver/gold/(nickel) currency can simply compete with the fiat money, although I think the fiat money wouldn't survive it long without major reinforcement of their backing.
Moreover I think that such a reform would bring considerable comparative advantage to USA if started there. That's why I think Ron Paul is still too vague and soft with his gold standard promotion. -The gold standard would be certainly better for dollar than fiat currency, but I think the bimetalic (trimetalic) system would be even more suitable when it comes to precious metals reserves ratio and practical realization - you could make whole trade dollar currency from cent to golden Eagle only with three metals in their market value and the US bullion reserves would be enough for it, moreover with todays chip and encryption technologies you could track every and each coin and authentize them if unsure about genuinety and the same with the redeemable certificates - so you still could regulate the influx of foreign coin on the US domestic market, which is crucial for keeping it in limits and the currency stability on the domestic market.
And of course I would expect the most of the gold and silver would be in the vaults and the practical retail trade would continue with notes and non-cash. But you would be able to come with your silver and gold and get it minted and then go to the bank and get fully redeemable notes for it, put it on the gold account or get foreign currency for it without going into obscure goldsmith shops, pay for assays and risk robbery.
Of course the counterfeiting would be much more difficult and with the real metal money wouldn't much make a sense.
It is sure gold&silver will remain strong commodities, because they're quite scarce and there's not much a prospect it would ever change. Also I think the market, where you would have a hard currency (gold&silver and their redeemable certificates) and soft currency (the fiat money) both can compensate each other with different interest rates and I even think that it would be better than just have one hard legal tender. But as I say I think the fiat currency would need major improvements of backing (by other values than gold&silver -as other commodities, property, by the debt liabilities etc.) to survive the hard one too long. (if I would like to revenge against the feds in the jewish manner I would make a law that the next 100 years they'll be payed by the FED notes only - you would see how quickly they would back it with gold&silver... :)))

Much more to agree about.

The math you included in your earlier reply include this:

    5,000,000,000,000/((160,000,000/2)*(1000/31.153)) = ~2000$/toz and silver 160-210$/toz.

    So in fact there clearly is enough gold and silver to convert all currencies in the world into gold/silver bimetalic currencies at the more or less current gold price (+ fees for administration and minting) and the silver price would soar ~5-7 fold even before the bimetalic system enacted - in the expectation of the final ratio.

You seem to put faith in the US accounts of our government safekeeping our gold & silver for 100 years (unaudited). I don't. Thus, you can calculate an expected value. I cannot.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

yeah the reserves are uncertain

but the equation is global - I mean for whole the world. Also there are the private gold&silver reserves (unaccounted) and I would bet it will be alot in USA - enough for 1 trillion circulation - if the bulion owners go, mint it, get profit and spend it. And because all new currencies fall in the beginning, the first will get better quick profit. A large economy kicker.

I even think that if there is then winning the silver/gold/(nickel) dollar then Canada would need to adopt it too and there then will be the 10 new states east of Alaska and USA would become the biggest country in the world. ;)

Good points. I like the way

Good points. I like the way the US mint started. The US mint had no stockpile of gold nor silver. Folks freely brought their refined gold & silver to the Philadelphia Mint. Stamping the gold & silver into coin was free. The mint operated the US Mint coin stamping press for free. US Mint records showed who, what, where, & when.

Records of the U.S. Mint 1792-1994

Overview of Records Locations --- Table of Contents

104.1 Administrative History
104.2 Records of the Mint of the United States 1792-1886, 1898-1965 (bulk 1792-1873)
104.2.1 General correspondence
104.2.3 Records relating to assays
104.2.4 Records relating to other operations
104.2.5 Administrative records

PS: The United States already is the largest Nation in the World! Since Alaska jointed the Union, the US is by far, the largest geographic collection of political states into one nation.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

this is needed again

that's only way how to make the silver/gold real money - people bring the bullion and the mint coins it into money for them. Fair and simple.

Interlude: The lack of money is the root of all evil as Mark Twain wrote somewhere. :) The poor Mark Twain couldn't imagine there could be money which aren't money, he couldn't imagine that too much of this nomoney would destroy everything and especially human spirit when generations and generations in a row are robbed from the result of their labor and inventiveness by this evil system. Especially in USA the people lost the value of their money already 21 times under FED just in 100 years and that's why I call it biggest scam in the history.

In USA this minting should be the bussiness of the US Congress to provide it according to Art. I sec. 8, not illegaly (what is unconstitutional is illegal due to art. VI second clause) outsource it to a FED, which then stamps a paper into a sort of vouchers, or mostly just creates numbers in a computer out of thin air, pretends it is real money and almost everybody apparently accepts it. Idiocracy.
I don't know if it was a commie idea of the society without money, some say so, but I don't think so. Nevertheless now we almost have it. There is almost no real money in circulation and when Gaddafi wanted to establish the Golden Dinar he was almost immediately taken down and portrayed as worst dictator. - No wonder, if someone managed to pass off the paper and numbers in a computer as money for most of the world they surely don't want a competitor introducing real money.
Because I was living 18 years in a communist country I remember something - all money we had that time of my college in second half of 1980's had a prominent notice on them "The note is backed by gold and other assets of the state bank". And indeed there was golden/silver treasury. But the history is complicated. The gold and silver was collected by people -mainly jewellery, old coins and small bullion - to back the currency back in 1920s when Czechoslovakian republic was found. Then the nazis came and most of the treasury was "saved" before when sent to London in autumn 1938. However in the course of the transaction made by Sviss Bank International of Settlements many tons of this gold (and also the gold stollen from other contries occupied by nazis) effectively were used for financing Hitlers war. This became known already during the war and when there was the Bretton Woods conference in 1944 your brave treasury secretary Morgenthau pushed through that the Bank International of Settlements should be dissolved. But the Bretton Woods agreement was then never observed. Instead this bank became practical monopololy for interstate transactions (and there are only two countries in the world which don't participate in their Basel III system - Iran and North Korea -recently it was also Iraq, Afghanistan and Lybia...). The rest of our gold (like ~60 tons) was held by british and they didn't gave it back until 1984 when they were under threat of international arbitration at ICJ which they knew they couldn't win and which would cost them fortune when we consider the amount of gold which it was about and that arbitration fees are based on the value disputed. So on the end the brits gave up and planes transported the gold back to Prague. Then according to the state bank in 1985 93% of the currency in circulation was backed by gold only and even that stupid commie planned economy started to thrive. Then soon the communism (was) ended, Czchoslovakian federation was dissolved and the libertarian V. Klaus became prime minister, despite the western bankers wanted somebody else, but the infamous idiotic NWO president V. Havel (portrayed in western media as almost a saint, but very unpopular in Czech despite constant MSM propaganda) movement got less than 5% in the election. Everything looked good until 1996. Then, just after another election which again won V. Klaus, the Central bank chairman Tosovsky without any apparent real reason raised the interest rate several percents. The chain bankruptcy of all major Czech commercial banks almost immediately ensued and it led to largest financial crisis in the Czech history. Media (meanwhile acquired by Germans and Swiss) blamed government and especially prime minister (which had nothing to do with it) and after year of fights he was taken down and the same guy Tosovsky became prime minister without any election and finished the butchers job - the 6.8% GDP rise before quickly went to red numbers. And now comes the point - in the next early election social democrats won the election. First what their prime minister did was that he for Mr. Tosovsky (which was back in the Central bank chair signed the sale of all gold in the treasury for a lowest gold price in history and they bought worthless foreign bonds for it. Since then we have the vouchers too and not even the fact V. Klaus became president and situation stabilized can change anything - we don't have the gold (the gold voluntarily collected by the normal people to back the currency back in 1920's) anymore. What is our only advantage now is that we never joined the eurozone.
And what happened to that guy who caused the biggest mess in the Czech finances and economics Mr. Tosovsky (the Czech Bernanke)? Soon after he left the country and became the chairman of "financial stability institute" in the Bank International of Settlements (yes!) and later took the very same job in World Bank.
I don't believe in central banks and much less I believe they should be given any independence. Normally I'm against death penalty because it is often abused, but I also think that only penalty for whatever delict by central bank officer leading to debasing of currency should be death - same opinion as apparently have had the USA founding fathers when writing the ingenious 1792 Coinage Act. I think that if you have sound real gold/silver money nobody needs a central bank.

With the nation it is interesting how differently this concept is undestood in Europe and America. In Europe the nation is largely about the language which determines different mentalities and culture. I lived in several European countries and it is really interesting how different the people are and how different it is when I think in English from when I think in French or Czech. We have quite many people here and mostly national states here, but there are also states which are considered multinational - as Great Britain, Spain, Switzerland or Belgium - also because there are multiple languages spoken, although in Britain it is interesting it is not even only about a language with the Scottish and Irish there it is about religion (nowhere else in Europe). In America you can have a Chinese in Texas speaking spanish calling them Americans, something we hardly understand here. It is unbelievable how much people we have here in Europe on such relatively small area, 23 languages just in the EU and this EU wants us believe we are one nation too, interesting nobody except the metrosexual vampires in Brussels EU offices believes it.
It just falls in my mind that the guy whole the America is named after was an Italian, and when we come back to the topic the funny is his name is not even mentioned in the Americas Wikipedia article. Not so funny is how badly are still treated the indigenous people and I wonder why they're not called American Americans when there could be the African ones, sometimes it looks to me they're not even considered the part of the American nation, or maybe they know well why they distance themselves from it?

Quite impressive. Thanks.

Learned a lot. You opened by eyes to many things I have yet to see clearly. Your recount of Czechoslovakian republic history was most intriguing.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

I just used the

couple of facts from history to demonstrate what is going on with the money and indicate what are in my opinion the main culprits of the todays situation. I think that the Bank International of Settlements (and IMF and World Bank) is the central point of this whole scam which is not going just in USA but almost globally and can be one of the main reasons of the wars.
Imagine just the USA example where since inception of the FED 99 years ago the currency lost it's value 22 times and moreover most of this happened after 1965. -When you count the "inflation tax" rate it was 22% p.a. in average for whole the 99 years, but in the period since 1964 it was in average the stunning 38% p.a. which were robbed from income and savings of an average American yearly.
But this didn't helped to make a wealthy state, in fact when we look at the today's public and private debts in USA we can find that the public debt is over 100% GDP and together with private debt it is a sum more than 5 times higher than the M2 and 21 times higher than the total nominal value of FED money in circulation, the debt per one taxpayer is half million $ and the interest needed to be paid for this is already higher than the federal and state budgets combined, but moreover the federal and state governments spend ~1.7 times more than are their revenues.
Come on, the GDP per capita in USA is well under 50 thousand $ yearly, savings per family is under 5000$ and total national assets per capita are under 300k$ and therefore the debt is on the first sight already never payable without a massive debt monetization - the financial collapse is virtually inevitable and it is more or less only a question when if this type of corrupt governance continues.
And I rather don't talk about unfunded liabilities nor derivatives, because somebody could get sick from reading it.

Ron Paul is in my opinion right with most of his simple but bright ideas, but to stop the meltdown would be a feat which would need a very resolute approach, balls, would need to be done with extereme precision and he would need to get the bankers on his side persuading them that it is only way how to get out without a civil war which in my opinion could develop in a mayhem of unprecedented scale which would destroy US economy even before it would get really hot, because the confidence would drop sharply both domestically and internationally and all who have something would try to save what is possible which would crash the domestic markets and lead to whole chain of events which I rather wouldn't try to describe here.
Please take this like my personal opinion. I'm absolutely against any militant radicalization in USA, because the situation there is already a sitting on gunpowder pile with a lighter or more like on pile of nukes with the detonator in the hand. If it would prove impossible to control the situation in USA and contain the financial meltdown there it will most probably lead to a chain of events resulting in almost any likely scenario in a sharp decline of human technological civilization already during our lifes due to lack of new energy resources - to substitute for rapidly depleting fosil resources - and needed infrastructure to use them, the system dependent on it vitally would decay exponentially due to simple laws of entropy and most of the people living in cities would be dying unable to sustain their lives.

I am sanguine... Hopefully optimistic.

You have gleaned much by quantifying relationship among financial statistics.

Take a step back. Imagine what Ron Paul eludes to when he questions making "loans out-of-then-air." Could it be that what is sold as a monetary system uses tokens... No money at all.

Despsite all the odds against success, I am sanguine.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

Yeah

That's what I say, the nomoney are just tokens, vouchers, they're not redeemable (yeah, ok you still can go and buy gold and silver for it at market price and I would strongly recommend to convert all savings in assets like this, later it can prove already impossible or it would be for really prohibitive prices). It is theoretically not impossible to make major monetary reform, the question is whether it is possible practically given the political situation and the fact that the system in USA is closely interconnected with the global BIS, IMF, WB ponzi scheme. You would need to do whole chain of unpopular things like to isolate USA market from the above at least temporarily and practically liberalize the FED nomoney value to avoid Gresham law effects, which translates that the retail prices would no more be directly indicated against the FED notes nominals and the nomoney would become only a very limited legal tender according to its discount rate which could be soon huge. This inevitable steps hough fair in nature could be massively protested even if explained well, because it could have huge principial opposition from influential circles, especially from the leftist side, because it would considerably challenge their power if successful.
I'm not much optimistic, I of course try to do what I can explaining this, although I'm very limited in distant Europe (and I know the major financial meltdown in USA would crash Europe too and give rise to Russia&China which I find undesirable, so there is indeed something in it for me), but I think the odds against success are very high. Hope I think is not enough here, people must learn the truth, although very frightening, and do something about while is still time for it.
Theoretically part of the debts can be nullified under 14th Amendment sec. 4 second sentence and using sec. 3, because indeed the whole participation in the international ponzi scheme is in fact giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the US Constitution and it is an armed rebellion of corrupt officers against USA and Constitution and the US citizens are in fact held as hostages and slaves to this fraudulent system. But I don't much believe it would be practically viable. Also part of the private debts could be dissolved due to FED nomoney nominal value drop.
What I think is most important is to avoid a violent radicalization, and try to solve everything in a civil, legal way - because of course a radicalization and a civil war like situation would be much worse outcome than a loosing of some money - and it would lead to a meltdown anyway, because the drop in confidence which it would provoke would anyway crash the markets. -I think even this evil governments know this very well and fervently develop the contingency plans for such situations - which - many wouldn't like it - I think is partly justifiable although to people in USA it could look like a policestate rise - which it could be at the same time - they could want to kill two birds with one stone - a civil war of people v. evil powerbrookers in my opinion couldn't end well for them in any case, because the superiority in numbers of armed citizens is really decisive and the rank'n'file military would most probably defect on their side, but it could develop into a huge "collateral" mayhem of destruction and bloodbath.

Initially the upvotes of this

Initially the upvotes of this post went up to 7. Then after the supposed corrections were cited, the post was downvoted to -1. However, no one (NOT ONE) actually corrected the article in Wikipedia.

Though this movement has a long way to go, I like to think that the future is bright. The sheepish mentality will come to an end and people who currently would rather follow will begin to take responsibility for their OWN actions and decisions.