-56 votes

Tax the Rich, End the Fed

Can anyone explain to me why they think a few people HOLDING MILLION/BILLIONS/TRILLIONS of dollars in their Personal bank accounts will create jobs and stimulate the economy?

People having a savings is great but when such a small amount of people are holding most of the US's wealth that is not helping the economy. They have more money then they know what to do with and having MILLION/BILLIONS/TRILLIONS sitting in a bank account is not going to create jobs and they won't use it to make risky investments which is something we need in today's world.

No amount of Tax incentives will inspire them to spend enough. Even with a 50% tax they still don't spend enough. Why do we have to have a total collapse, when the few people with the means could give more and avoid a crash completely.

Government sponsored enterprises are still owned by the Private sector.

End the Fed, Tax the Rich

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
reedr3v's picture

You totally misunderstand. Most people through

history have been far more hardworking than those of us lucky enough to be in countries allowed to develop beyond subsistence. But that development is not made possible by distributing income by force. That has never worked, the only result is a burgeoning police state and a debt economy that eventually sinks the standard of living for all but the elite politicians and corporate cronies and enforcers.

The U.S. was the most innovative of countries because it freed individuals to choose, to create, to accumulate enough capital to fund minor and major breakthroughs, with enough economic stability to plan ahead and take risks. That is what allowed a huge middle class to develop, one that elevated the standard of living even of the poor above that which still exists in many parts of the world.

This once was a nation of small business people, small farmers. Almost no one worked for a large company or bureaucracy. Now almost everyone does. The State has erected so many barriers for start ups and even land owners and independent craft or service people, and has dumbed down the ed. system so that most people are only able to work for someone else, if they are lucky enough to find a job.

(sigh)

Wow again you amaze.... You actually think we aren't being run by the political elite and corporate cronies already... (sigh)

Take a look at American history before you say it has never worked. http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates?op=1
We've used it many time in combination with other things.

Its funny how people here refer to the state like its a living organism, like its not made up of the very few people, bad people who I refer to as wealthy. And those same kind of people are also not super rich but they are advocates of the establishment.

The state the government, lol.... Its like it runs its self...

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

reedr3v's picture

And in turn your first sentence amazes me.

How you could read my posts and conclude that I am not totally opposed to the political elite/corporate cronies escapes me. There is a gap between us which impedes communication. I assume a fair level of basic understanding and don't supply every nitpick each time I write.

You are very new to libertarian ideas and every time you post your misunderstandings leap out and trip up your arguments. I looked at your link and it means little. Let's not get into a link trading war; I really don't have the patience. And if you think that's a dodge, so be it. I read too many economic analyses to keep at my fingertips the many I've seen that express economic data and their context far better than your post.

Here's the essence that was stated above by AnCap and which you chose to ignore. Your idealized system relies entirely on either: a coercive police state to implement, or an entire cultural paradigm shift overnight -- so those who worked hard to accumulate wealth happily, voluntarily donate whatever % would please you to those who, by unfortunate circumstance or laziness have accumulated less.

Your bigotry against the wealthy whom you consider "bad people" allows you the same disregard of their rights -- their very humanity -- as did the Bolsheviks, the Nazis, the Fascists, Mao's Red Guard, The Hutu, Mugabwe, Che, ad nauseum through confiscatory schemes of history. In every case people were murdered, starved, impoverished, enslaved for an abstract scheme against human nature -- the very abstract that you emulate.

The rest of your reply was so muddled I can't make out what you are trying to express. Here we honor the individual and think everyone deserves the same peaceful respect. No "eat the rich" and no "bomb the collaterals" and no control the peaceful protesters, no telling peaceful individuals what and how they must run their personal lives and finances.

You collectivists pick and choose groups to oppress or reward with State coercion. We individualists don't. Deal with it.

Your Blind

Just the thought that you accept the fact the people made their wealth legitimately through fiat Currency appalls me. Most of you agree that in the past 30 years the influx of Fiat currency is more then its ever been. People made their wealth off of this Fiat currency, technically its wasn't real money and it belongs to no one. So to take it through taxation is not theft, it never belonged to them, it wasn't real.

Unless you agree that the influx of money into the system is just, you can not complain about the state taking a lot of it back. In 1980 the amount of money that was in the market place was lets just say' 10 trillion. The government in the past 30 years has added more then 30 trillion. Do the Math people. Its very simple to see.

Non intervention sounds wonderful but its not practical because too many people subscribe to the total opposite and you will be left with nothing cause they will intervene while you do not.

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

reedr3v's picture

You get hung up on stereotypes way too much.

Perhaps you are in academia? In the real world people work hard to earn wealth or at lease enough for survival.

Fiat money only enriches politicians and their cronies who receive the inflated currency first, before prices rise, and those privileged institutions who receive discounted loans and Bailouts etc. It does also allow for the expansion of government employees to enforce all the rules, and bribes for all the special interest groups who pay back the powerful with votes.

In no way does fiat help honest workers. Every time the money supply is inflated, the value of the common people's money is eroded. And combined with manipulation by the Fed of interest rates to near zero -- the majority are losing money at a rapid rate. One cannot save, it gets eroded with no interest. That is what stimulates investing at a fever pitch. People who know little about the stock market jump in out of desperation hoping to offset the mandated loss of savings; but the sharks take them to the cleaners and the Fed itself is in the business of blowing up bubbles that pop and ruin multitudes.

And I g.d. well can complain about the state adding taxes onto its intentional erosion of fiat purchasing power. The middle class has been disappearing before our eyes due to monetary tyranny by your religious icon, the State.

there is no answer, never has been but Liberty. Only when people are allowed to pursue their lives unmolested by tyrannical egomaniacs armed to the teeth can they, in their commonsensical and normal and peaceable fashion build prosperity and resilience and mutual benefit and cooperation and safety instead of war, oppression, torture, imprisonment, and control as the norm under State centralized control.

Debt is 15 Trillion the Market has more then double that

Are you serious? Most of the inflated Fiat currency is in the Market place not held as debt by the US.

The debt is 15 Trillion.

The amount of dollars world wide far exceeds 15 Trillion probably close to 30 Trillion or even more. Where is all this money?

Again DO THE MATH. Its simple. Yes debt from the government is NOT A GOOD THING. But to go an say that most of our problems come from the government debt is not accurate.

How is 15 Trillion dollars of debt worse then the Trillions of dollar flushed into the open Market by banks? THIS DOES NOT ADD UP MY FRIEND.

I'm against lobbyist, but again these Special interest are in the open market. The money goes to businesses that are publicly traded, congress deciding to give money to a company is no different then a Big Bank deciding to invest into a business.

Inflating the money supply was done for the very reason its being done now, the people who have money aren't spending it, so the only other option is to create new money.

The difference is that 20-30 years ago when they gave out this money there were less people and no real development. Stores were mom and pop and those who got funding from companies like Bain Capital borrowing money from the banks, succeed and companies that didn't want to failed.

I'm a consultant and my clients range from all types of businesses. Not sure if you know who Max Keiser is but think of me as a person on the inside who exposes Big Business for what it really is.

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

reedr3v's picture

You are like a voice from the past.

First most monetary inflation today is not paper dollars in people's pockets or bank accounts or investments. Money expansion is digital, loans between the Fed, Treasury,and the big centralized banks. The only "capital" behind it is the bet that you and I and all of us workers will continue to produce and pay high taxes and spend the balance on corporate goods and accumulate more debt to keep the phony economy heated up.

I pity your clients. And of course I know who Max Keiser is. Your comments on "exposing" big business are irrelevant. If you mean corporatists who exist solely as handmaidens to the politically powerful, no one on this forum would defend such entities. You keep taking punches at an imaginary target.

You want a collape

No one can know if that's true or not but what ever digital amount has been accumulated whether through loans or what ever means, is still owed to the people under your logic that the people have labored over.

Your basically asking for the same thing I am, except your idea causes a collapse where everyone loses their savings. It wasn't real money but we could avoid a crash completely if a few people just paid more taxes.

I think the biggest problem here is you guys don't want to be part of the community where everyone pitches in to provide services and you pay a little from your income to get these services.

And when I say tax the rich, I mean those corporate cronies, politicians and anyone who has benefited greatly from the Fiat money system.

Its better then having a total collapse

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

reedr3v's picture

I think you are sincere, but sadly miseducated

in economics. If you do your research you'll discover there is not enough money in private hands -- of all individuals rich and poor, and of all businesses -- to repay the astronomical debt the government continues to increase. It is mathematically unpayable. The only way the government has to reduce that debt is to continue inflating and debasing the dollar so it's interest payments are paid in less and less valuable fiat.

Of course that wipes out the purchasing value of consumers/savers too. Dr. Paul has pointed this out to Bernanke's face and he does not deny it or care. It is the Plan, the only way the Establishment can try to save their own skins until their terms of office are up.
Their futures are secure with all of their crony benefits. And they care not what happens to your future.

Think for once. People who have no moral qualms about bombing and maiming and destroying and robbing can never be trusted guardians of your money. It is a delusion to fantasize these people are anything more than opportunist gangsters.

How would taxing them more do anything but enrich them?

I agree with you in principle, but realistically it would never work; taxing the rich at super high rates, that is. Ending the Fed, however, I think would do an awful lot toward ending their grip on, well, everything.
The Fed is the core issue and it feeds all the evil people you speak of in government and private business.

Not hard to see this

You have to have the combination of both. Its great to End the Fed but what is the incentive for a person who has 20 million to invest? Why would a person create a business if they have all they want?

Why is it so hard to understand that if the means of production and job creation is in the hands of a few people and those people don't see anything to invest in they wont take risk with their money.

Not hard to see this.

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

If someone has 20 million,

If someone has 20 million, and they don't want to invest it, you have no right to put a gun to their head and take it from them just because you think they should

Drama queens

Drama queens. Always with the gun scenario. You guys need new materiel.

A man sits in the middle of the road obstructing traffic and the police move him. I guess you would think that was unnecessary and that he would have moved eventually and force should have not been used.

Flawed Flawed Flawed philosophy. You guys need to read new books and not ones that only agree with your point of view. I guess it wouldn't matter, your so down the rabbit whole.

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

That's because you refuse to

That's because you refuse to think out the logical moral consequences of your philosophy. I wasn't always a libertarian. I've read plenty of books. A man standing in traffic is not the same thing as a guy not investing money. That's a nonsensical analogy.

Its the same

If a single person or a group of people are hindering the progress of everyone around them, something needs to be done. You can't just Some people are just assholes and they don't care to listen to reason.

And some of those assholes are in control of the economy.

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

Please define "the progress

Please define "the progress of everyone around them".
What exactly should that be?

If someone has 20 millions and doesn't want to invest them, how is that "hindering the progress"? By claiming this, you assume that there is no right to property.

It's HIS money. Do you understand that concept?

Either you say there are no property rights or you agree that he can do with his money whatever he wants. But denying both is just logically impossible.

And denying property rights is also logically impossible if you agree that everybody has a right to his own body.

If you now say there is no right to one's own body, you can stop writing here immediately, because there is no base upon we can discuss anymore. You would just get completely out of touch with reality.

And your man hindering the traffic is NOT the same. Because the road is the PROPERTY of someone. And your man doesn't have a right to be on someone else's property if the owner doesn't allow it, same as you have no right to steal someone else's property.

As long as you believe that

As long as you believe that the right of the individual out way the rights of the many, there is not point of a conversation.

Its why nothing will change with the state because libertarians believe that bad people have the right to be bad because they are the owners of the State. We might as well be there property. lol

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

Cyril's picture

FUDGE !

Fudge !

If it were not for Freedom2012 comment I'd have kept missing that:

"As long as you believe that the right of the individual out way the rights of the many, there is not point of a conversation."

Fudge, indeed. Now we can ALL see what YOU REALLY HAVE IN MIND !

I'm done with this thread, too, FOR GOOD. You are pushing THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what we defend and want to protect, as best as we can. There is no way to reconcile these opposite views, rationally speaking.

As far as your endeavors go, here's the best place to live in for you, then: The Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

You won't be disappointed, that's exactly what you appeal for.

Because, you, naive you are, still trust that the few at the top of A GOVERNMENTAL POWER can decide about EVERY aspect of the lives of the many, of the people, and not get greedier and greedier ... OF POWER AND PRAISE. Not just money. It's no different than our former Kings and other kinds of Tyrans.

I take it YOU NEVER OPENED ANY HISTORY BOOK, reckless you are.

Sorry : here, in America, in 1776, THEY HAVE CHOSEN LIBERTY, instead.

Maybe you didn't know ?!

Good luck with your thing.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Hell do you even now what you

Hell do you even now what you are talking about???

You have no idea about libertarianism but you're just claiming you knew everything about it.

I never read such bullshit and I will not comment any further on your hogwash. You're just a troll.

And now we even got the proof, because this:

"As long as you believe that the right of the individual out way the rights of the many, there is not point of a conversation."

exactly revealed what you really are.

I'm done with you.
And you should be banned, because you're a hypocrite claiming you were on our side and wanted to learn, but in fact you're just a Collectivist pushing his propaganda. Maybe even a Marxist...

Cyril's picture

(Thank you for saving my time.)

(Thank you for saving my time. Unattentive I was.)

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

All I heard was Blah Blah

All I heard was Blah Blah Blah...

I learned all I needed from the libertarians, truth some of the philosophies make sense.

But just like any other Party, its single minded agendas blind it from being anything more then just that, single minded.

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

I will agree with you that

I will agree with you that tax cuts will do nothing to stimulate the economy. Companies/people have a ton of money. Not only that, but with the federal reserve's policy, access to capital is very easy. If there were good investments out there, the market would be investing in them. That is the prime problem; the lack of good places to put money in.

This has also been proven by the lack of stimulation of the Bush and Obama tax cuts.

However, there is the moral issue of taxation. When you tax the rich more than you tax everyone else, is that fair? You have a nation where half the country pays nothing, yet enjoys the benefits of our military defending them, our roads, our welfare programs, etc. How many small businesses enjoy the safety and security of our country while paying nothing in taxes? How many small business enjoy the workers trained in publically-funded universities, or the open-source research done with public money; money which comes from taxes paid by wealthier companies.

This has always been a question during our history. Initially, we put the burden of taxation heavily on international companies that did business in America. We then shifted some of the burden to local producers. We then shifted more of the burden on to the income tax. Within the income tax, we've seen the burden shift. At one time we taxed the rich a lot more; it looks like people like Ryan and Romney want to tax the poor and middle-class more. Today, we hardly collect any taxes from imports.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

No its not fair

But is it fair that the majority of Americans aren't getting the education they should. I feel we have reached a point in humanity at least in the US that we need to shift the focus from retail to infrastructure.

We don't need more mindless jobs. People need to feel challenged and we need to try and make Earth the best place to live for all people, not just the people in the US.

Again, we don't need jobs, we need a new goal for humans to reach together. Arts, science, math. We need to move to a resource based economy and lifestyle.

Otherwise we're just gonna kill each other.

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

The difference between you

The difference between you and a libertarian is that libertarians is that if a libertarian shares your beliefs about all the stuff you mentioned, they don't think other people should be forced to go along. Study what you want to study. No one here would argue that you shouldn't be allowed to do so. Just that you don't have the right to force others to agree with you

Some people are just assholes

I agree that no one should be forced to agree. But if no one was forced to do anything, we would have anarchy, its why the movement attracts those kind of people.

With out force, we wouldn't even have a court system. A person could do what ever they want cause if you asked them to do something and they said no but it was something that needs to be done the only way to get them to do so is force.

Sounds nice but some people are just assholes and wont listen to anything else but force.

Ever notice the difference between a child that has parents who use for vrs parents who let there kids do what ever they want?

Thats society in a nut shell.

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

That's why non-anarchist

That's why non-anarchist libertarians believe government should be limited to punishing and detering people who infringe on the rights of others and use force against them. Anything beyond that is immoral. In a free society, people have the right to be assholes, as long as they're not infringing on anyone's rights. Someone holding on to their own money is not infringing anyone's rights or harming anyone (assuming that wealth was properly acquired through peaceful means. Which is why libertarians oppose corporatism that immorally enriches people)

I strongly disagree with your last paragraph. Adult people are not children. They do not need to be taken care of by Big Brother Government. Unlike a parent-child relationship, the government has no legitimate authority to force peaceful people to do anything. A parent is presumably much wiser and smarter than a child. The same is not true for the government. Bureaucrats and politicians are just as human as everyone else. But that mindset (that government should be a parental overlord of the childlike masses) seems to be the bedrock of progressivism these days

Unless you have been

Unless you have been discriminated against, you don't realize how someone being an asshole does infringe on your rights.

And how does one deter or punish a person without force? When people do not have equal access to things, they will ALWAYS infringe on the right of others.

Again under a system that does not have equal access to resources, people are not peaceful. It creates jealousy, anger, bitterness etc etc, witch leads to 1 person infringing on the rights of others. We wouldn't need government the way it is if everyone had equal access to resources. The cause of all wars, conflicts etc was over control of resources. Claim earth common heritage and give access to all and you'd be surprised what man can do.

Again government is not the answer, and the way your looking to change things is through government.

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

There are many forms of

There are many forms of assholery. If I get punched in the face, or someone steals my wallet, they're infringing on my rights. Someone keeping their money in a bank account, even if we defined that as being an asshole (which is absurd btw) is not an infringement on anyone's rights.

As for the rest of your post, is this a joke? People won't infringe rights even if they have equal access? Will everyone be satisfied with equal access? I mean, it worked so well in communist countries. Who enforces this equal access? The great thing about the free market is that people are free to compete for resources without resorting to violence. And it's not a zero sum game. Societies, from top to bottom, are far wealthier today than three hundred years ago, for example.

As for your last paragraph, do you not see the irony of your post? You're the one asking the government to raise taxes. How are you not looking to change things through government. Who is going to enforce your utopia of equality?

What communist country gives

What communist country gives the people equal access to resources? I'd like to know?

Their is no true competition for resources in the US, there hasn't been for a VERY long time.

And just because people will have equal access to everything, does not mean things will be perfect. There will always be issues, but issues shouldn't come from the fact that a person has more because they had better access to resources.

Its not Utopia, and when the people are tired or lifting up a few individuals, over lifting up society as a whole, then things will change.

And I believe that day is coming soon.

"If you think we can't change the world, it just means you're not one of those that will"

Jacque Fresco

None, and that's my point.

None, and that's my point. That may be the goal of communism, but the people who have to enforce it (and their cronies) will have more access. You didn't refute any of my points, such as how you think this will be enforced, or that people will still compete for resources, except violently, as that will be their only choice.