Connecting with the Occupy Wall StreetersSubmitted by DevinDraven on Sun, 08/19/2012 - 11:29
I had a conversation with a person who supports the Occupy Wall Street movement, which, in my opinion, is almost a mirror of our movement. They recognize that the government is bought and paid for by special interests and are acting in whatever way they feel is necessary to bring about change. Here's a transcript of a conversation I had. My pseudonym is JacksonHugh, his is Vinomadd. This is while watching a stream of the events going on in London with Julian Assange's speech earlier.
I didn't catch all of it, but I caught a lot. (Expiry of what people have said due to data limits or something.)
Please post some ideas on how to reach out and educate people as to the cause of Liberty and common ground we have between the Occupy movement.
9:19 Vinomadd: Size of the government is irrelevant. This is not a systemic failure because the system which was in place did NOT permit these modern actions. It was greedy people who subverted the system.
9:20 JacksonHugh: Size of government is relevant, b/c if government is large enough that it controls aspects of our lives, those aspects are allowed to be auctioned off. And the system is nonpartisan, the people failed
9:21 Chipzzzz: @JacksonHugh: Exactly! (My question was, "How is that NOT systemic?)
9:21 Vinomadd: There is not system you can replace this one with that would be stronger OR weaker. SO long as human beings are human, they will subvert any policy, any barrier to tyranny. Mankind is relevant.
9:23 Chipzzzz: Vinomadd: You mean to tell me that there are not 535 people in a country of 300 Million that cannot be bought?
9:23 Vinomadd: Only your vigilance can change that. Governments are not autonamous mechanical things, they are organic extensions of the will of the weilder
9:23 JacksonHugh: People elect people into positions of power. They were not vigilant, and allowed corrupts to get into office. This has ballooned.
9:24 Vinomadd: Any system you put in place will ALWAYS be under assault from the greedy and the tryannous.
9:25 JacksonHugh: And its only protection is by a group of vigilant citizens who elect people into office. That's why education is most impt thing Liberty and Occupy can do atm
9:25 Vinomadd: @ Chipz, again, a failure of personal ethics, not systemic.
9:26 arvindnpathak: tHE Governments are no hOLY cOWS THAT CANNOT BE QUESTIONED ! THROW OF THE MENTALITY of cowardice ,no Government is strong enough to withstand ,PEOPLE'S COMBINED mIGHT ,Rise together !
9:26 Carrieissupergreat-1: cops are nicer in the UK
9:26 Chipzzzz: Vinomadd: That might be except that the corrupt make the rules that determine the behavior of the system
9:28 Vinomadd: Chipz: How does that support your argument? Stop electing criminals. Occupy should not be yelling at the government, they should be yelling at the people for voting the democrat/Repub dichotomy.
9:28 JacksonHugh: The way I think this will be able to be fixed is to get good people into office, then dissolve the corporate powers, then create limits, then shrink gvmt
9:29 arvindnpathak: yes cOPS ARE CIVILIZED ,POLITE IN UK in India or USA,there would have been special task forces with guns , smoking .,by this time .
9:29 Vinomadd: This problem originates with the people, not the government. We must accept culpability and perform our civic duties if we wish to keep civil liberties strong. It's like a muscle, use it or lose it.
9:29 Chipzzzz: Vinomadd: American politicians are elected largely on how much their campaigns spend on media. Who can compete against repub/dem funding?
9:29 Carrieissupergreat-1: speech http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyg9Kq1r0SM&feature=youtu.be
9:30 JacksonHugh: @Chipzzz, people on the ground > all the money in the world. Educate educate educate
9:31 Vinomadd: I might have agreed with that 20 years ago. But we're watching a guy reporting from England for the price of basic internet access. Reaching millions costs about 15$ a month
9:32 JacksonHugh: @Vino: Chip is talking about reaching stupid people who are content in watching daily news and thhinking they're informed, if even that.
9:33 Vinomadd: Agreed. But so long as people view patriotism and capitalism as a religion, which they most certainly do in the US, money is irrelevant. Like you said. Educate Educate Educate
9:33 Chipzzzz: Got2go guys but thanks for the chat... Look forward to seeing you all again
9:34 Vinomadd: Take care Chipz! Great points!
9:34 Carrieissupergreat-1: speech http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyg9Kq1r0SM
9:34 JacksonHugh: Patriotism is a wonderful, wonderful thing. Capitalism too. the 'patriotism' and 'capitalism' that exist today, aren't. Patriotism is love for country =/= GVMT. Capitalism = compeition
9:35 Vinomadd: The truth is it's very hard to sell a populace on the notion of personal culpability, which is why I have grave concerns for the longevity and effectiveness of the occupy movement.
9:35 cwicket: hi there did I miss Assange speech ?
9:37 TauxFu: Hi Tammy :)
9:37 Vinomadd: Screaming at a government who doesn't care about you to begin with will accomplish nothing. You saw the wealthy in New York sipping champagn over the crowds like it was an amusement.
9:37 JacksonHugh: The occupy movement is doing it the wrong way. They're demonstrating, which is good, but it can be hijacked. (it has many times) Just educate people. media will frame you as crazies (they have too :(
9:38 cwicket: problem with sound
9:38 Vinomadd: you cant expect a snake to stop behaving like a snake. The government will not magically change it's ways. WE have to change OURS and stop electing snakes.
9:39 JacksonHugh: "It does not take a majority to prevail... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." — Samuel Adams
9:39 Carrieissupergreat-1: ola
9:42 Vinomadd: It's not fair that the victim should have to pay for the crime, but life is NOT fair. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. And rights must routinely be exersized to be strong.
9:43 JacksonHugh: I agree!
9:44 Vinomadd: Why should they acknowledge a 15% turn out in registered voters? We must swarm the polls like angry bees.
9:45 JacksonHugh: Implying that most, if not all polls are rigged :P
9:45 IIEnixII: FREE ASSANGE FROM HIS INCARCERATION IN AN EMBASSY
9:46 Vinomadd: lol, sorry, I mean the voting booths, not the polls. But yes, we must be vigilant of tampering as well. My own state's legislators have outright admitted to attempting to get rid of voters for Mitt.
9:47 JacksonHugh: @Vino: You should read this. docs.google.com/file/d/0ByJAC-sfXwumZzI2bVlON2VTMnFyYVZZSnpDYnNyQQ/edit?pli=1
9:47 andypandy66: Im getting sound but your picture is frozen...
9:47 Vinomadd: What is it? I have a thing about clicking mystery links.
9:48 IIEnixII: MAKE JULIAN ASSANGE THE LEADER OF THE WORLD. ONE GOVERNMENT RUN BY ASSANGE AND ONLY ASSANGE.
9:48 JacksonHugh: It's an assortment of mathematical observations on the legitimacy of republican primaries in 2012 and election fraud
9:49 Vinomadd: I strongly suspect this election will be as dirty as the one in 2000.
9:50 JacksonHugh: All elections are dirty from the start, by misinformation and pbulic brainwashing. It's further worsened by the ability to change vote tallies by electronic machines
9:51 Vinomadd: There was this documentary on HBO concerning the Dibold (sp?) machines which had devices which enabled tampering AND that they had conclusively been proven to have been used in the 2000 election.
9:52 JacksonHugh: YEP! I watched that. I think a ling was something blackbox.com or whatever
9:52 Vinomadd: I am far from technophobic, but I would strongly prefer physical ballots. It's harder to abuse a paper trail.
9:53 JacksonHugh: Same. Sadly, though, it will all go to primaries if not stopped instead of caucuses. blackboxvoting.org is the name of the site.
9:54 msw1111: you can burn a paper trail
9:55 Vinomadd: Any system can be subverted. It's about layers of security.
9:55 JacksonHugh: an awesome site that in my opinion largely reflects sentiments of the Occupy movement, but from another angle, is http://dailypaul.com/ yes, they are about Ron Paul, but what about after election? They're going to branch out, Ron Paul isn't their only goal.
9:56 Vinomadd: Well, I'm not a Paul fan. He is exactly what I was talking baout earlier with the politics behind populist voting points. Libertarians are as nuts as Repubs/Democrats.
9:57 JacksonHugh: In fact, WEARECHANGE did a segment. watch this video, and look at the most recent comment. docs.google.com/file/d/0ByJAC-sfXwumZzI2bVlON2VTMnFyYVZZSnpDYnNyQQ/edit?pli=1
9:58 JacksonHugh: Sorry, didnt copy link. http://www.dailypaul.com/248992/tea-party-and-occupy-merge-d...
9:58 Vinomadd: There is no valid third party candidate out there right now. The best we can do this time is to simply not vote for a single incumbant in November. Let them know they are expendable.
9:59 JacksonHugh: And actually, I agree with almost everything Ron Paul has to say, and if you were to listen to him, you probably would too. Don't close your mind, esp. if it'd be a mutually beneficial relationship
9:59 Vinomadd: I cannot support a man who said that no domestic aid should be offered by the US after a cataclysmic tornado outbreak in the midwest as Paul did.
10:01 Vinomadd: These aren't the 1700s. I'm in no danger from King George. If my government has this amount of money for the military, it has a few dollars to protect it's own when the wrath of "god" hits. Paul is a
10:02 JacksonHugh: You're in danger from King Obama. And I agree, as he does, that the gvmt spends way too much on military. Read ALL of his positions, and disagree with some of them, or all of them. No strawmen
10:02 Vinomadd: snake in sheep's clothing.
10:03 TajaLee: all politicians are snakes
10:04 JacksonHugh: Also, the only source I found for that was the Huff Post, which is a mainstream media outlet to brainwash people. Why should I believe them about this but not other things?
10:04 Vinomadd: I am very well educated on Paul's positions. He's crazy. He thinks it's the mid 1800s.
10:05 JacksonHugh: Typical ad-hoc attack on the man himself and not his positions. It just shows how much you really know. :( People tell you to think he's crazy.
10:05 Vinomadd: And most of my knowledge of him comes from his own mouth. I've followed his career since the 80s. He's going to pulla Nader on us and split the liberal vote.
10:06 Vinomadd: haha, I don't rely on the opinions of others to form my own, Jackson.
10:07 JacksonHugh: Both Occupy and Liberty movements will fail if kept seperate via media brainwashing and dissent and dehumanization of the other sides, and the Bigwigs will win. What do you find wrong with his views?
10:08 Vinomadd: I know better than to argue with Paulbots. Later
10:08 JacksonHugh: Exemplifying exactly what I'm talking about, label someone stupid to discount what they believe in. I fear for my country.