11 votes

USS Vincennes Omitted from Iranian Warmongering for Obvious Reasons

Our greatest military in the world could not distinguish an F14 from a passenger jet at 6 miles either by radar or by sight in broad daylight.

Dr Paul is constantly promoting the concept of minding our own business. We should have been doing that here.

The cover up was so obvious at the time, and so conviently omitted from the propaganda today.

I thought maybe our younger members had never heard this story. Please remember as you go to the convention, that Ron Paul is the person to stop all this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_Ap6xeJTDQ

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Why would the 'warmongers' bring this up?

That makes ZERO sense. The downing of IR655 was a regrettable incident, but is immaterial in the case for or against war with Iran.

What exactly was 'covered up' in 1988? We came out and admitted that we shot the plane down. We offered to pay compensation to the victims' families. A 'cover up' would have been if we acted like we never heard of IR655 and denied shooting it down. THINK!

If you want to know more about what REALLY happened, I suggest you find the FOIA'ed Fogerty Report on the incident. Most of it has been declassified and available on the internet.

Why exactly are you bringing this up? Are you just trying to pick at old wounds for Iran, or reinforce the idea that America is evil and can do nothing right? What's your REAL goal?

lindalsalisbury's picture

Iran

Perhaps you do not know that the captain of the Vincennes was disobeying direct orders by sailing to the battle with Iranian gun boats and the Montegomery. He was spoiling for the fight and did not even realize he was 2 miles inside Iranian waters. The plane, even if it were impossible to identify (which they could have if they bothered to contact the plane on the civilian frequency) was accending NOT DECENDING as was reported. Neither was the fact that that we were in Iranian waters (which was initially edited from the Fogerty Report).

My point is that there is no excuse for what happened because we were over there in defence of Sadam Hussien in the pretence of protecting our oil interests. Later, of course, Sadam became our enemy (we are still there in the pretence of protecting our interests). If we had not been there, and if the captain had followed orders, none of this would have happened. Action is how these commanders earn their decorations, and the Vencennes crew was decorated, so people like you will think this was a "legitimate error", an unavoidable consequence of war, and we are "really" not to blaime for consequences.

As for Iran, most people do not know that the Iranians were giving away their oil to the Brittish for nothing and laughing at them because the Brittish were stupid enough to haul it off. They (Iranians) were educated and decided they wantd to be paid for their oil. They couldn't come to an agreement, so rather than the oil go to communists countrys, the Brittish (on behalf of BP, the guys that trashed our gulf) and the US did a coup and replaced Iran's leader with the Shah (who murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people). The Shah traded with us and the Brittish.

My "REAL" reason, as you have ask, is to reinforce Dr. Paul's political position on foreign policy, and remind people of the hazards of warmongering.

The idea that America is evil comes from your mind, not mine. As I lived through the era of the Kennedy assassination, and this incident, I question the reports the government puts out. Why don't you go to youtube and see what Fogerty says about his own report?

I bring this up to emphasize the importance of our mission of liberty, otherwise the world will pay in money and blood.

Bring our military home!

Casualties of the Tanker Wars

Vincennes was responding to reports from her helicopter that it was under fire by Iranian gunboats, allowing her to enter Iranian waters to defend it. I don't know Capt. Rogers so I won't speak to his frame of mind; he has plenty of defenders and detractors already, each with their own agenda. I can tell you from my time in the Navy that I wouldn't want to work for any CO who was unwilling to aggressively defend his people. That doesn't mean he was 'spoiling for a fight' or feels good about directing the action that caused 290 deaths, it means he made the decision that he thought was right at the time based on the information he had.

You act like making an ID on the Airbus is as simple as clicking on a computer icon, but it isn't. Contacts appear as a blob of video on a screen against a whole background of other blobs. It takes skilled operators time to properly ID each one. The compression of the timeline for making a hostile/non-hostile ID is a leading cause of this incident. They did try to reach the Airbus on both IAD and MAD, the radio frequencies all planes monitor, to no avail.

Vincennes was engaged in a battle, near land, with an unknown aircraft inbound. Memories of the attack on USS Stark the year prior (by our "friends" the Iraqis) were still very fresh. The CO made the call. It turned out to be the wrong one. There was no malice against innocent civilians, they were casualties in the Fog of War. No medals were given to the crew for shooting down IR655 (some did receive normal end-of-tour awards when they transferred months or years later).

I don't support the overthrow of Iran, now or then. That also doesn't mean our Navy shouldn't be out, forward deployed, defending US-flagged ships around the world. Keeping the sea lanes open for American ships is the Navy's first and foremost mission. That simply can't be done in home waters.

PS: I did look for Adm. Fogarty's comments on Youtube but couldn't find any. Do you have a link? This incident (and the lessons learned from it) is still taught today, and I'd love to have another bit of primary source information (and not some hack-job like 'Seven Minutes that Stunned the Navy').

lindalsalisbury's picture

National Geographic

did a series of 5 youtube videos on the Vincennes insident. I used a short version because I didn't think anyone would be wanting to spend all that much time on this subject.

I am not computer smart - I have had my computer less than a year, so if you go to youtube, and search National Geographic Vincennes, you will probably get it. When these videos come up, You will find the video of Fogerty on the right side of the page where related videos come up.

I would try to do this for you, but, I am sure you are more capable.

There was no malice as you say, but innocent people are still dead, because we, and they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

I thank you for your service and now I understand why you have a defencive stance on this subject. I do think, I did not misrepresent Dr. Paul's position this matter, it's none of our business. Millions of people agree with you, as to where our military should be.

If you still have trouble, I will try to do the link "thing". Good luck.

sad to say this is the first I've heard of this tragedy

thanks for posting

God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it. – Daniel Webster

Very very sad

thanks for sharing this. I was moving at the time and don't remember this incident, wow, depressing.

Prepare & Share the Message of Freedom through Positive-Peaceful-Activism.

Don't remember

Because it was given short coverage. The Iranians remember.

"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas" Victor Hugo

lindalsalisbury's picture

It is very depressing

Of all our history with Iran it is no wonder they call us the great satan. The grief we have caused these people, for decades is enormous.

We have done nothing, but put them in the dire straights they are in today, then we are supposed to bomb them for it.

Dr. Paul is SO RIGHT, we should have minded our own business.