-1 vote

DEAD: Edited: Why the GJ movement disgusts me and Why we must not give up on Ron Paul

==Edit==

THIS THREAD IS CONSIDERED DEAD. DO NOT NECRO!

==Author's note==

Following this note is my long rant about the GJ movement. Reading the comments, I realised that my post was too emotional and difficult to follow.

Below my response to Rix4Paul, putting the rant in context.

Taking a breath,
I think you're right, I am overreacting a little bit and forgetting that everyone is an individual with their own choices.

I think I ought to explain my rant.

What I see is that Gary Johnson is being paraded over Ron Paul. Not a simple "cast a vote for Gary Johnson"... but an overpowering, "Gary Johnson 2012!" rallying cry, as though GJ became the movement now.

To me, it feels as though people are losing hope in the things that they were working so hard and so long for: The delegate strategy, in changing the hearts and minds of the Republicans, in the Ron Paul movement itself... and more. And that the vote for the LP candidate Gary Johnson is an escape from those things going astray, especially after the GOP has crossed us time and time again - "abandoning ship".

I also have trouble trusting GJ and the LP, partly because they seem so "alien" compared to Ron Paul and his delegates that we know and trust. We also do not know what actions GJ will take. Compound that with what I see in Australian politics, which is all about flip-flops and back-stabbing: the result is that after all of that, [The System] remains, and it's suffocating my country. For all we know, GJ could betray you in the same way Australian politicians betrayed us, and you would not be able to hold him accountable in the same way you could Ron Paul with his delegates. You already know that RP is a man of principle and integrity, but GJ is an unknown, and still smells of politics.

Perhaps I am wrong to think that GJ is untrustworthy. Perhaps I need to trust in your judgement more. But what I'd like to see is that DailyPaulers think a lot harder before announcing "Gary Johnson 2012!" in every comment they post, because it gives me (an "outsider") some very uneasy chills.

My ultimate hope is in Ron Paul, in his ideas and his movement, not in Gary Johnson. From Across the Pacific: Go Ron Paul!

====

==Original text==

Jumping the RP Ship to join the GJ ship?

You all disgust me.

As far as I know, Ron Paul has not given up the fight yet. Nor has his tireless supporters, who have devoted much to the movement. In spite of the GOP/RNC dashing all our hopes, our hopes have not died yet.

Third Party Vote In My Country

You who look towards GJ do not seem to understand the significance of voting in the third party "in protest". My own country is suffering because of that very sentiment, ever since our own last election. Now the socialists are in control of Australia, courtesy of a deal with the third party (who are radical socialists), and living here is getting suffocatingly harder by the day. Few Australians here know why it's so hard to make ends meet, since they themselves are sheeple. A swift "death" would be preferable to the drawn-out torture here.

Thankfully, your third party aren't socialists, but are libertarians, right? Perhaps. What you don't realise is that by voting GJ, you are effectively voting for [ The System ].

What is [ The System ]?

[ The System ] is the status quo. You see it in the two-party system, in Romney and Obama, in the establishment, in the special interest, in the taxes and the bills, in the indifference of men and women. People have many different names for [ The System ], from "conspiracies" to "evil", but the point is that people recognise that there is "something" that is causing all this pain.

In other words, [ The System ] is what we are fighting against.

In Australia, voting third party was a vote for [ The System ].

Part of every two-party system is a third party establishment.

To many people, the third party is the only real alternative to the two major parties. But the problem with this alternative is its lack of sway or power. In every election, the third party becomes the third wheel as most people vote for the "two evils".

Of course, that's not saying that it can't grow. In the last Australian election, the Labor Party (Left Party) was facing defeat: people were deserting it in droves to the Greens (Third Party). The Greens grew so strong that at the election, it caused a hung parliament, where no party has a clear majority. In this election, there were three parties and three independents. The Left and Right Parties had the biggest share of votes but not enough to be given "clear majority": the minor paries were thus kingmakers.

The Liberal Party (Right Party) refused to deal with the Greens because of ideology. And since the Greens were voted in protest of the Labor party, it meant a deadlock. So the people demanded a re-election. But this was too good of a political opportunity to waste. So by backroom deals, the Labor Party became re-elected with the seats and support of the Greens - i.e., back to the status quo.

And there in lay the trap. Although the third party forced the Australian Government into submission, it still made deals with [ The System ]. Its highest priority was not changing the system, but political strategy and survival.

In the U.S., the chances of such a deal-making situation are slim. Romney and Obama are much stronger in comparison to the LP, and Obama is likely to win against Romney due to popularity (it wasn't so for Australia's PM). But suppose the election came to a "hung congress": what would happen then?

Can you guarantee that the LP would not make any deals that would serve the establishment?

The Real Issue

But then, that's not the real issue. The real issue is: does the Libertatian Party stand for exactly the things you here are fighting for?

I do not believe that the Libertarian Party stands for what we stand for.

You see, unlike in the Republican Race, we little-to-no delegate influence in the Libertarian Party.

All our efforts throughout this process has been to build a delegate base, and it's not just to nominate our chosen candidate for POTUS, Ron Paul: it's to shape the Republican Party. Our movement has been a grassroots one.

The Libertarian Party, on the other hand, is NOT a grassroots organisation. It is an establishment that conveniently has much of the same things we are looking for. The problem is, someone else decided it, and that same someone-else has very much the power to turn the very meaning of the LP upside-down. They could do it in their values, in their ideology, in their decision-making... and more. And those voting for the LP would ironically have no drect say in what the LP is doing... except vote with their feet, perhaps.

Sure, at this stage it would be best to go with the LP, who seem to have what we want. At this stage, it would be best to abandon the hostile Republican Party. But that would be undoing what great progress we have made thus far. We have created a movement, sown the seeds of REAL change in that hostial party. We are growing with the ideas of Ron Paul, who believes not in some organisation but the PEOPLE WHO MAKE UP THAT ORGANISATION, i.e., WE THE PEOPLE.

We are transforming the hearts and minds of people through our DELEGATES who now represent us in the Republican Party: to turn our backs on these tireless individuals in this time of great need would be shameful and cowardly. And that is exactly what a vote for Gary Johnson means: abandoning the movement.

Right now, we have more delgates than we ever thought was possible at the beginning. We have a foothold, and aren't some "Fringe element" that no one cares about. And better yet, we are still changing hearts and minds! We just need to keep on reaching out!

We Are Winning: NEVER give up on Ron Paul! We Are Winning!



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Gary Johnson is not a movement

he is a tool that we can use to spread our liberty message at this moment. I can tell you that when I look at my Gary Johnson sticker on the back of my car and the sign in my yard it doesn't excite me, like the RON PAUL sign that I feel damn proud of that sits right next to the GJ signs and stickers.

Nonetheless, I understand that the only reason I am supporting GJ is because he is a true libertarian, boring, but still he is the best thing we have going on right now.

Humanitarian interventionist war

This phrase is so sick and so Orwellian, I can't believe any RP supporter would vote for someone who actually uses it as part of their campaign platform. I didn't know much about GJ until I read a few posts here and after hearing about it, there's just no way I could get behind someone who promotes this. I seriously doubt RP will endorse GJ because of this issue alone. This has been a problem for me with the Libertarian Party for quite a while...they favor interventionist warfare -- which really disqualifies them as libertarians. If they'd accept RP as their presidential candidate, I'll definitely support him. But not GJ in the number one spot, with or without RP on the ballot with him. I'm not being a purist, I would accept someone else who isn't as perfect as RP. But the war issue is so critical (and ties in directly to the Fed and debt problems) that I think it shouldn't be compromised on.

I recommend only voting for G Johnson if Ron Paul

endorses him, otherwise he's trash. That's the best test of the man-Did Ron Paul endorse him? He certainly hasn't yet.

I like Ron Paul, but he's not

I like Ron Paul, but he's not God and I don't have to wait for him to tell me who to vote for.

Yeah, no sense in taking advice from someone who is clearly

wiser than you. That way you can continue going through life as a completely self made jackass. Have fun voting for Gary fucking Johnson, genius.

There's a difference between

There's a difference between taking advice from someone wiser than you and waiting to take orders from them because you can't think for yourself at such a point that you rely on someone else to make your decisions for you.

He SPECIFICALLY is CHOOSING to avoid an endorsement so the mainstream media and GOP can't say that the numbers for Johnson were a fluke from Paul commanding his minions.

This is why he said GJ was "wonderful" "doing a good job" and worth taking a look at, BUT ADDED the disclaimer that people need to decide for themselves... just like every time he asks "I have no control over who they vote for."

I'm pretty sure the last thing Paul wants us to do is write him in if there's a better choice, not for the sake of the candidate himself, but for the sake of the outcome of support getting behind a 3rd party for the movement now and in the long term.

Clearly Paul has put too much faith in people to use objective critical thinking instead of just simplistic emotional thinking.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

Oh wow, Necro much?

This is old stuff now. Now we know better about what RP's position on GJ is. My position on GJ has changed since as a result, and I do not want to address this particular topic anymore.

I believe in the freedom to be what we choose to be.

Wow, was I replying to you?I

Wow, was I replying to you?

I wasn't asking for your input or attention... but if you want to think I was talking to you or responding to something that YOU said... feel free to keep kidding yourself.

The person's comment I had replied to was made a week AFTER Paul had said this about GJ... so it was relevant that they were still ignoring what Paul HIMSELF said.

I think you need to go "reflect" on how stupid you just made yourself look.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

This thread is dead.

And I amend what I said: OUR position has changed.

As for the other people in this thread, I doubt they really want to revisit this particular thread just to read or answer your reply to them. The last post is 5 days old, and the majority of the older replies were made on the 30th of last month. I don't doubt that what you said is relevant. I do however think that the time to post here has expired.

That's it from me. I explicitly call this thread dead. If you want to reply to this, go ahead, but you'll look as stupid as you say I look now. =]

I believe in the freedom to be what we choose to be.

I can't vote for Johnson

It's the war thing. I will vote for a candidate that has Paul's views on foreign policy. Yes, there are a few out there, but I won't cram him down your throat like all the Gary Johnson supporters did. If you really care, just go to wikipedia- third party 2012 candidates and you will find him in the midst.

Should we continue to build

Should we continue to build up the pro liberty wing of the Republican Party? Certainly. Indeed, it's the only long term hope the Republican Party has. Except for the Ron Paul people most of the Republican Party will die off within the next 30 years.

But that doesn't address the issue of which presidential candidate we vote for in 2012. Ron Paul isn't going to be on the ballot. So voting for Gary Johnson does not mean that you're giving up on the Republican Party, it just means you want to send them a message of where they need to go if they want your vote.

That's the whole point

"ultimate goal"

No matter how long it takes. Ron is retired. We are the movement now. Step up to the plate and get groomed to run for liberty. We have lots of good folks who can lead in an intelligent manner. For now we need to be rid of obama or goals of liberty will never be accomplished. NEVER.

Keepin' it real.

Yah see

That is why i still remain undecided. People around here act like its a bad thing and come quick to conclusions, well its not...it means your thinking. This post makes a lot of sense in some way he is turning another mans supporters into his own sheep? the delegates WE put our work into came into the GOP. who knows who the LP delegates are. I certainly wont be donating to them.

His name is Edward Snowden

What is Capitalism?
http://youtu.be/yNF09pUPypw

The RP ship sailed into

The RP ship sailed into harbor, and there is only one other ship other than the ship of Romney and Obama that is on the ballot in all 50 states. The choice is logical. See you on the ship soon. It's only common sense for any half-witted RP supporter.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
http://www.thethirdangelsmessage.com/wordpress/should-christ...

You vote for GJ

and we'll be stuck with obama or whoever the hell he is.

You are insane and making us mad. GO AWAY obama troll.
obama is NOT the logical choice. A vote for GJ is a vote for obama.
Go Away.

Keepin' it real.

Wha?!?

I was wiling to listen to your arguments.. but maybe I'm missing something??
My plan is to stay in the republican party and keep working.. definitely.. BUT if I cast a vote for Gary Johnson in the presidential election is that "abandoning ship"??
I think you just need to take a breath.. we're all on the same side here.. like Ron Paul said we're individuals, and we may fight for liberty in different ways.. but as long as we keep informed and keep fighting.. we can win!

Taking a breath,

I think you're right, I am overreacting a little bit and forgetting that everyone is an individual with their own choices.

I think I ought to explain my rant.

What I see is that Gary Johnson is being paraded over Ron Paul. Not a simple "cast a vote for Gary Johnson"... but an overpowering, "Gary Johnson 2012!" rallying cry, as though GJ became the movement now.

To me, it feels as though people are losing hope in the things that they were working so hard and so long for: The delegate strategy, in changing the hearts and minds of the Republicans, in the Ron Paul movement itself... and more. And that the vote for the LP candidate Gary Johnson is an escape from those things going astray, especially after the GOP has crossed us time and time again - "abandoning ship".

I also have trouble trusting GJ and the LP, partly because they seem so "alien" compared to Ron Paul and his delegates that we know and trust. We also do not know what actions GJ will take. Compound that with what I see in Australian politics, which is all about flip-flops and back-stabbing: the result is that after all of that, [The System] remains, and it's suffocating my country. For all we know, GJ could betray you in the same way Australian politicians betrayed us, and you would not be able to hold him accountable in the same way you could Ron Paul with his delegates. You already know that RP is a man of principle and integrity, but GJ is an unknown, and still smells of politics.

Perhaps I am wrong to think that GJ is untrustworthy. Perhaps I need to trust in your judgement more. But what I'd like to see is that DailyPaulers think a lot harder before announcing "Gary Johnson 2012!" in every comment they post, because it gives me (an "outsider") some very uneasy chills.

My ultimate hope is in Ron Paul, in his ideas and his movement, not in Gary Johnson. From Across the Pacific: Go Ron Paul!

I believe in the freedom to be what we choose to be.

SheldonFromDownUnder should stay there

You don't have a stake in this race so keep your two cents worth of thoughts to your self. Watch and be respectful.

I will darn sure say what I want.

Be it right or wrong at the time, because only when I see the SHTF from saying it will I learn!

I'm not content with being a mere observer or an outsider. I'm not content with being frustrated with being an Australian, stuck over across the Pacific as I watch you Americans do amazing things for the Ron Paul movement. In the area that I live, no one cares that the reason the sky-high price of food or petrol is linked to the US dollar, or what inflation actually is, or why it's so damn hard to get a job or a valuable education, or who a principled man looks like.

And what you say about me having no stake in this race is wrong, because I darn sure as hell have one. My two cents of thoughts is worth exactly two cents, just as much as it is for a dollar, a hundred dollars, a million... or none. Because of welfare, because of debt, that is exactly my worth as a person—absolutely $0—and that is the worth of the fiat money system that surrounds us all.

You have my respect. And now I turn your words back at you. Watch your friends and be respectful. And please do as you see fit.

I believe in the freedom to be what we choose to be.

Everyone

is affected by what others do no matter where they live.

Like a butterfly's whisper movement of it's wings, we'll all still feel the wind movement of what each other does regardless of if you are aware of it or not.

Keepin' it real.

Every person..

on the planet has a stake in this race. Take your authoritarian sociopathic censorship somewhere else.

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Hey

You try being respectful.

If you dont understand, this monetary system is GLOBAL, We have the Reserve Bank of Australia here running things.

Dont tell me or my fellow Aussies, or the Romanian Paul supporters, or the Spanish Paul supporters, Or the Polish, English, German, French, Paul supporters to keep thier two cents to themself! If you do, you obviously have missed Ron Paul's point.

The People all over the world that understand the monetary system support Ron Paul.

Also..

the US is trying to make Australia one big US military base and trying to draw them into a future-but-soon conflict with China. Obama has been openly announcing shifting our deployments to the Pacific.

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Creating a strawman...

... as a pretense to verbiage...

GJ is an important component of the liberty movement.

End domestic and foreign wars, repeal Patriot Act and NDAA, balance the budget now, restore and protect our civil liberties... not good enough for you? Then you are clueless, despite your attempt to be relevant.

Plano TX

Go

away troll. Take your GJ garbage somewhere else. Here is a dollar. Tell someone who cares.

A vote for GJ is a vote for obama and nothing is worse for Liberty than obama......absolutely nothing.

Keepin' it real.

Ignoring, for the moment, GJ

you say that nothing is worse for liberty than Obama? How about Romney, who has suggested that he might appoint John Bolton as Secretary of State? Can you say "World War III?" How good would that be for liberty? Please, on a site devoted to liberty and peace, how could anyone endorse voting for either Romney or Obama?

You've been a member for a little over five months and you're calling someone who has been here for over five years a troll?

Obama sucks. Romney Sucks. Taking sides in that fight is a losing proposition.

Opportunity to free ourselves of delusion of winning presidency

One of the things I disliked about the Paul campaigns was that it gave people hope that they could use their rules to usher in a real president.

We can't. They'll just change the rules and cheat in a number of different ways. But we loved how Paul running for president by their rules made them cheat, exposing their true nature. That was great and we did it twice...and they cheated left and right. And it is up to us to expose their true nature.

However, we need to break the illusion that we can win via the rules. We need to except the brutally hard truth of how the masses' votes don't matter...that we haven't had real representation for over a century...that we can't have any real power by playing by the rules...that you can't avoid them by going off-grid...that you can't out-pace their inflation and overtaxation by investing in gold (they will get every penny of yours...one way or another).

If Paul runs again, great, the better to expose them...as long as we don't fall back under the delusion that we can get power by playing by their rules.

The rulling class have used the tactic of 'rules' throughout time.

As it is taught in history classes: in the early 1200's, a baronial revolt led to the King of England making peace through a treaty...the Magna Carta. What isn't taught is how this was a trick by the King to lull barons into a sense of security, while the King used the time to gather forces and attacked one baron at a time. The movie IronClad shows this.

Later, these types of people made treaties with native Americans...putting them under a delusion that all will abide by the rules...again, they gathered up forces and wiped out the native Americans.

They desperately want us to stop attacking their credibility...to think we can win by the rules. They want us to believe we can simply vote someone in...like say, Ron Paul or Gary Johnson. We can't.

I'm not throwing my support behind Gary Johnson because he isn't trying to destroy the credibility of the cheating ruling class. Ron Paul is. Thus, I will support Ron Paul until someone better at bashing the cheaters comes along...and Rand doesn't look like he'll be that person for a long time.

This is hard to swallow

But Ron and Carol didn't want to win anyway. He said so. He said he was carrying his message. He's retired now and enjoying his twilight years. He paid his dues. You can't blame him for not wanting to continue working. This is his time relax. He won the battle of getting his message out there and gained steam while paving the way for us. Now we carry on.

Keepin' it real.

I agree with your reply, except for the comment about Rand

Rand could have easily stayed home and continued his successful practice.

But he didn't. He jumped head first into the belly of the beast, as did his father, to restore our constitution. He saw how his father was treated and thinks this the best route to accomplish that goal, or to, at least, slow our descent into thirld world status.

I trust the Paul's have a strategy, and although no-one is perfect, are doing what they can to restore our rights.

I remember the look on Rand's face the night of the NH primary, He was pissed they cheated and stole that one too!

Thank God we still have men like Rand in our Senate. He is playing his role very well, as can be evidenced by all the Rand bashing here. I truly believe he is doing what he and his father think is best for the resoration of our rights.

"A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within" W. Durant

Here's the thing about Rand...his record is too short

He's definitely been hugely more supportive for his father than for supporting the neocon agenda. I know that.

It's just that he hasn't been around long enough to have a long-term consistent conservative record.

Yeah, he's been talking the talk for years, but he's new to office. He's got to walk the conservative walk for many more years. And frankly, he has made a few surprising neocon actions.

I know people assume he's like his father. But I don't. Let his record speak, not his speechwriter, not his father.

By 2016, he'll have six years of record. That isn't very long. Hopefully, Ron will run again in 2016. That'll give Rand more time to develop a longer record, gain more political savy, and gain more support.