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Abortion in the United States - The Reality

From TheLogicalPerspective.blogspot.com -

Abortion is a tough issue for many people in the United States. The right to one's own life is paramount to the success of a free society. However, the outright outlawing abortion presents practical dilemmas that cannot be ignored.

...

In the event that abortion was completely outlawed in the United States, affected women would flock across the borders to get the procedure done anyway. Many that could not afford to make the journey to another country would likely attempt to self-abort at home. There would be unqualified individuals analogous to drug dealers performing abortions. Prohibition has been proven to be a failing tactic repeatedly.

While I disagree with abortion and would advise women against it given the opportunity, I realize that logic and reality predict that the use of government force is not the answer. It rarely - if ever - is the answer.

If an individual wishes to end abortion, education and activism are the most reasonable solutions.

Full Article - http://thelogicalperspective.blogspot.com/2012/09/abortion-i...



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Yeah, and slavery was a real

Yeah, and slavery was a real tough issue a hundred and fifty years ago. If we went back to 1862 and told Americans, northerners and southerners that in a little over a hundred years from then, the federal government would "discover" a woman's right to kill her unborn child. And this is how we are viewed today in the Middle East.

People get wrapped around the axle over women wearing hijab in Muslim countries. Consider how they view us, killing over a million unborn babies every year.

And then consider our homosexual politicians coming out in favor of "gay marriage". Americans need to stop throwing stones and clean up their own house.

This is my main problem with a lot of Libertarians. They are concerned that no one violate their rights, but they don't recognize the rights of others, specifically the unborn.

Isn't that exactly how slave owners viewed their slaves? Not real people, and not entitled to the same rights the slave owners enjoyed.

Regardless of the government action...

technology would have outmoded slavery. Slavery is the least efficient source of labor.

I don't endorse abortion as I clearly pointed out, but also, I don't endorse government force on the issue.

Even unjustifiable murder would not be tolerated in a free society. The Wild West wasn't as wild as Hollywood makes it out to be. Violence sells... Boring nights on the prairie driving cattle doesn't.

If a ban existed and you walked in on a confused woman that was self-aborting, would you call the police and have her arrested? Or, would you try to counsel her? If you chose to call the police, should they lock her up in a padded room for nine months and be forced to give birth? Should she be tried for premeditated murder? If you were the prosecutor, would you seek life in prison or the death sentence? What should the punishment be?

Tell me in practical terms how to enforce a ban on abortion.

Off hand, I only know one woman that ever had an abortion, and she felt so bad about it that she now has three kids. She was impregnated by one of her high school teachers.

I don't think so. Look at how

I don't think so. Look at how useful so many American companies find cheap labor. You don't think they'd love to take it one step further and have unpaid slaves?

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

You're spinning High School tales from The State

There are more slaves today than ever in history.

Especially sex slaves.

================================
Fight the Ron Paul blackout on the Daily Paul (now 'P AU L'), put his removed poster back as your avatar:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9ir62bp8nshv83m

What makes gays un-libertarian?

Give me a break.

I totally agree

a lot of people miss this point. I could never abort a child, but if somebody else wants to, it's not my business, and they will have to live with it. The government should have no right to control what we do with our own body IMO, and as you said, prohibition has NEVER worked anyway.

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
-Thomas Paine

NO, it IS your business. You

NO, it IS your business. You are here because your mother did not abort you.

True

My mother did not abort me, but I'm glad she had a choice. Like Ron Paul said, you cannot legislate morality. You cannot force people to be "good" with laws.

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
-Thomas Paine

True and false. For example,

True and false.

For example, I think that our system of laws does force certain good behaviours on people. Anti-theft, anti-murder, anti-fraud. It certainly can change behvaiour.

I feel that laws cannot stop desperate people from doing desperate things. And they are not very effective at fighting against cultural tidings (see anti-pot laws and your typical college campus).

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

It's really simple.

The purpose of government is to protect people's rights. An unborn person is thus under the protection of government.

How to enforce a ban on abortion? It's very, very simple. Local police arrest anyone providing murder "services." If the nice, clean clinics are shut down, how many women are going to risk their lives to have their unborn baby killed? Not many, I can assure you. The idea that they'll be pouring across the border is absurd.

exactly

!

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

A coat hanger used to be the tool of choice..

Maybe modern day women will be more creative.

Evictionism

http://lewrockwell.com/block/block208.html

In this post Dr. Walter Block not only links to all his work on evictionism, but he also links to critiques and his response to those critiques. If we are truly a part of an ideological revolution then I think we must hear out all sides on this issue if we are to have an opinion at all. The key, to me, for libertarians who are forming their opinion should be to carefully consider how their view stacks up against the NAP and property rights.

The debate between Block and Wiesniewski over evictionism is especially enlightening. Their debate deals with this issue the way libertarians should. I encourage everybody interested in the abortion debate to at least read their writings in order to see how to civilly and logically discuss this matter in the libertarian way. You can find links to their debate in the article I posted above.

This is the reality of abortion in America...

can be found here_

http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abo...

I'll repeat the comment I made the other day.

i've said for a long time that the only way to stop abortion is at a very local level (like sheriff's dept), going after the abortionist and not the parents! then, no woman is not allowed her "choice", but she and only she participates. then she can decide whether putting her life on the line is worth the murder of her child. 10 out of 10 would rethink the hideous choice.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Democracy is when two wolves and a lamb vote on what to have

for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote.

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Because we live in the United

Because we live in the United States of America, the abortion issue should be settled by the Declaration of Independence which tells where we get out natural rights and what they are and the Constitution which protects those natural rights.

It does not have to be a religious issue.

What I see in this country often is that people want their rights without thought or concern about how the exercise of those rights affects the rights of somebody else.

Abortion as a form of birth control is a prime example. When men and women exercise their right to engage in behavior that can produce another life, then that new life has rights. The right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.
Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, NOR BE DEPRIVED OF LIFE, LIBERTY OR PROPERTY WHITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

What can an unborn child possibly have done to warrent it being deprived of life?

Abortion is a tricky. emotionally charged issue. There is no answer that satisfies everyone. But the truth of the matter is, it is unconstitutional.

Roe v. Wade was ruled on the womans right to privacy. (9th and 14th ammendments) The Court explicitly rejected the unborns "right to life" argument.

And that is where we stand today. Abortion is legal under any circumstance because it is ruled unconstitutional for the state to make laws that interfere with a womans private decision to terminate her pregnancy.
The old state laws that made abortion legal only for rape, incest and medical reasons are gone.

Now we have a Republican candidate for president that wants to over-rule Roe v. Wade altogether and make abortion illegal for any reason.

Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

John Adams

In a free-society you do NOT defend other peoples "freedoms"

You give them permission to defend their own. You can assist (voluntarily) but not without permission.

ONLY under Corporatism, Socialism, Capitalism, or Dictatorship can you have a "voice" in the abortion debate.

There is no force-agency in a free-society.

In a free-society women would find out they are pregnant and they would either tell everyone about it and keep it or they would find a "woman" or "doctor" who would abort it.

There would also NOT be abortion statistics or any medical statistics in a free-society as ALL of that information would be "private"

So -- in a free-society I would argue that the value of women is much much higher and therefore their offspring would have a greater value (thus more fetuses make it to baby-hood).

That being said, in a free-society, a mother would make the choice (whether to keep it or not) and there would be ZERO record of her choice.

If you are fighting for a free-society there you have it -- You will NOT know how many abortions are taking place; period.

I think you might want to

I think you might want to reconsider what you just said. If you saw an unconscious person being robbed or raped, would you stand by? How about a disabled person being mugged?

This is the position an unborn baby finds itself in. It is incapable of defending itself. And what is the function of government? IT IS THE PROTECTION OF LIFE AND PROPERTY.

I suggest that you secure a copy of THE LAW by Bastiat.

Butko: If you want a free-society then you must allow "failure"

to occur.

Corporatism is Protectionism

If you want a truly free-society you cannot have Gov't Censorship or Intervention (agreed?). This is where Mises and Rothbard agree, philosophically.

Corporatism is Anti-Failure

A Free-Society is Pro-Failure

The ONLY way to stop women, in a Free-Society, from having an Abortion is to have ZERO Medical Privacy; which is NOT a free-society.

Corporatism = Zero Privacy in Medical Prescription or Procedure.

In a Free-Society there would be no statistics on how many people die from this or that -- there would be no statistics on how many abortions take place.

In a free-society when you go to a doctor there is NO RECORD of it.
---No IRS
---No Gov't Census
---No Gov't Record Keeping

The Gov't has ZERO permissions in a free-society.

When Lt. Gen Julius Becton (Ret) took over as Superintendet of Schools in Washington DC he said ".....when it comes to children, failure is not an option"

Zero Failure = Corporatist Ideology

Ron Paul is a non-interventionist and a pro-lifer. You can be both.

But in a free-society there's no record of death; there's no gov't accounting for anything, so how would you know who gives abortions or who doesn't.

Nature provides ZERO Guarantees -- This goes for the Fetus too.

And I'm against abortion -- I was adopted. But I want a free-society more than a fetuses "guarantee"

Under Capitalism women had as many abortions as she wanted.

Under Corporatism women have as many abortions as they want.

The difference? One drives the women to underground doctors, the other provides free clinics. Neither represent "free-societies"

LIFE, liberty, and property

"I realize that logic and reality predict that the use of government force is not the answer. It rarely - if ever - is the answer."

Government can be the answer sometimes (gasp!), libertarians believe that to be the case to protect Life, Liberty and Property. Otherwise you are an anarchist.

Scientifically, I think it is becoming harder and harder to state that a fetus is not a human being (what makes a 7 month old baby in the womb different from a 7 month old premie out of the womb?). So if you are ok with government protecting the right to life, which most people are, then it isn't a ridiculous logical jump to think that fetuses should have protection under the law.

However, because of the 10th amendment - "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" - the proper place for the abortion debate should be at the state level, since the constitution doesn't say a dang thing about abortion. Either that or a constitutional amendment.

Personally, I think we should aspire to anarchism...

as an end goal.

For instance, someone brought up murder earlier (in effect saying) - "Why don't we legalize murder?"

In reality, the government probably commits more murders than would otherwise be committed by a completely free society. Despite what people think, most people don't need Big Brother to hold their hands.

Not wanting to involve government is not an endorsement of abortion - just as not approving of entitlements is not an endorsement to increase poverty.

We will continue to be subjects of the government until people understand that natural order emerges without government force.

Really? Don't countries like

Really?

Don't countries like Somalia and Sudan teach us differently? Where government is non-existent and crime, murder, and poverty run rampant...

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

NO -- Dr. No :-)

Those countries have supra-gov't intervention (foreign).

Foreign gov'ts are wrecking prosperity over there.

Those are not Misesian "free-societies" anyway -- so it's bad example and bad example as the answer.

There has never been anything even remotely close to a Misesian Free-Society.

birth control and personal responsibility...

I believe there are several parts to this issue.. one is getting pregnant in the first place. yes, there are times when it can be forced on a woman and in those times isn't there "the morning after pill?" If a woman is raped or forced she should beat feet to the nearest dispenser of that solution and make that part of her healing. If that solution isn't readily available it should be MADE readily available for those women who need it.

Rampant unprotected sex should not have abortion as the solution. I know there are women who use abortion as a form of birth control. I know a woman who had nine because it just wasn't the time to have a baby and she couldn't manage either birth control or herself. That is where personal responsibility comes in. I may have mentioned this here already somewhere but I had my tubes tied when I was 21 because I felt I could financially manage one child and that was it. I also felt in my heart that these times were coming and I would be able to protect one child and I love children enough to not want to bring any more into a world that I felt unsure of.

I am against waiting until the fetus is viable and then deciding on abortion. My daughter was born at 6.5 months and there are babies being aborted AFTER that time. She was a beautiful tiny baby who needed minimal intervention to survive. I actually was able to bring her home when she reached 4.5 lbs. There are babies being aborted who would be healthy and happy babies that someone could love so I am against terminating their lives at that point. Again I feel that is where personal responsibility comes in.

I guess I'm sorry that sex has become such a common thing.. getting pregnant has become such a common thing... getting an abortion has become such a common thing..

Garnet
Daughter of 1776 American Revolutionists

Whose liberty do we protect?

While I don't like abortion and find it to be morally wrong, I am not very comfortable telling someone else what they have to do with their own body. Do we force people to have a child they neither want or can take care of? How is that going to be better for the child? Do we force women to be incubators for a child and then take that child away as soon as they are born? Do we let that child grow up in foster care until they are 18? True there are many people that would love to adopt a child, but rarely can people actually afford to do it. The cost is prohibitive in the U.S which is why people go to China to adopt a child.
Abortion is a tricky issue because there are two peoples liberties to account for. I don't think a total ban on abortion is going to stop abortion and will just make a lot of criminals. Remember it used to be illegal and many woman died going to butchers. There is many reasons why someone might choose an abortion and no one can pass moral judgement on someone until they have walked in there shoes. I don't like it when people use abortion as a means of birth control, that is wrong. But what about the woman who already has 5 children she is struggling to take care of? Will another child help that? What about the 14 year old who got pregnant from a poor choice, comes from a home where her parents will throw her out of the house if she has a baby? Will she and the child be better off living on the street or living on welfare? Will they be better off if she never finishes school and never has a job better than working at Walmart? Strictly pro life people will always say to give the child up for adoption...have all of them ever given up a child like that? Can they guarantee that child will have a better life, that that child will actually be adopted?
I myself became pregnant at 16, and the father wanted me to have an abortion, I didn't because to me its not right, but I also knew my parents would not throw me out of the house. If I thought they would have I might have had that abortion. I had planned to give my baby up, but once he was born there was no way I could give him up. So I raised him and he is an awesome kid. He's 23 now and I never regretted keeping him. That being said I didn't always provide a great life for him, and I have not always been a perfect parent. He has struggles directly related to being raised by a young mother. I had to quit school, and worked horrible jobs for 20 years. I am 40 years old now and JUST got a decent job. I am rambling but just wanted to make the point that NOTHING is ever black and white and there is never just one solution to an issue. Education is key...government force won't stop the problem. Just something to think about.

I refrain from this.

My PERSONAL view is that abortion is wrong.

I do not walk in others shoes.

I may not know circumstances, or how devastating an outcome either way might be.

I will make decisions for myself and help guide my immediate family.

Therefore, with ndaa, monetary, illegal wars, etc., I have not let this issue become a presidential "wedge" issue. I will however, continue to try to spread the message of Liberty, and responsibility, that a fetus has rights too.

Pick your battles wisely. You cannot enter into a room to debate without walking through the doorway first. Once in, coffee will be served.

"What if the American people learn the truth" - Ron Paul

Ridiculous

I do not care if the women put themselves at risk with an unqualified butchering lunatic, I do not think that it is right, period.

This argument drives me

This argument drives me crazy. It's sorta like saying, "if murder is made illegal, you'll have people rushing to hire hit men and making deals in back alley's... prohibition has never worked."

Since I happen to believe abortion is murder, the fact that women go out of the country, self-abort, and go to "unqualified" individuals (is anyone ever actually "qualified" to murder?), while upsetting, does not influence my desire to protect or abdicate my responsibility to defend the unborn from being violently torn apart with no anesthetic, burned alive, or stabbed in the brain. Sorry ladies, if you want to go to a back alley or some Mexican chop shop, that is your decision but I can't worry about you more than I worry about your unborn, innocent baby.

If murder was not policed by the government...

local order would still emerge. Murder would not be tolerated. Despite what many think, most people don't need Big Brother to hold their hand. For that matter, Big Brother probably commits more murders than civilians.

People act as if because a person doesn't want the government to be involved in abortion that that person endorses the murdering of babies. It's called demagoguery. Politicians are good at it.

The government is rarely the answer - if ever. Until society realizes this fact, we will be subjects rather than individuals - in the fullest sense of the word.

Calling a fetus, or earlier

Calling a fetus, or earlier form of life "unborn" is absurd.

By that logic, Monty Python was right when they sang, "Every Sperm is Sacred".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk&feature=youtube_g...