-14 votes

LINOs in Our Midst: Those that Would Sabotage Us

I've been following this site and your posts for over a year now. Even perusing some of the comments depending on the post from time to time. Now that I've signed up and have gotten into conversations with some active members, I've come to the conclusion that there are many LINOs (Libertarian in Name Only) here among us.

Just like the RINO had sabotaged both the GOP and then the Tea Party... LINOs will do the very same here.

What are some indicators of a LINO?

Ron Paul Fanboys
-They take a loyalty to Ron Paul OVER integrity to libertarian principles and the movement. They stick with Paul even after he no longer caries the torch on a national stage and only take his word rather than think for themselves regarding their future actions. They also tend to compare everyone to Paul and in turn, no one else is ever good enough.

Those with a Personal Agenda
-These are those that would vote for Paul because he's Pro-Life while they wouldn't vote for Johnson because he's Pro-Choice... completely choosing to ignore that BOTH candidates put state's rights before their own personal belief. They also tend to completely overlook the fact that most positions on both sides of this and other issues have valid arguments with libertarian principles at their core. Instead of realizing that you can't invalidate a valid argument with a valid argument... they cement themselves into believe only their way is right rather than it's a gray issue that as of right now doesn't have a clear answer. Bottom line... they would rather trade small government, spending cuts, and less war for something regarding their personal belief. This is the very opposite of anything Dr. Paul is about.

Party Loyalists
-These are those that allow the fear-mongering their own party uses dictate how they vote. The same that is done with using fear to convince everyone to get on the pro-war train. They exaggerate the negative of the opposition while suppressing the truth about their own candidate in order to create the "Vote for our candidate because we need to get the other one out"... letting the "lesser of two evils" compromise work its magic... letting people believe they're doing something good when they're in fact becoming and promoting others to be the cause of the problem... allowing them a fallacy to believe they followed their conscious when in reality they compromised in order to live with their emotionally charged decision.

No where in party by-laws or loyalty oaths does it say ANYTHING about voting for Romney or Obama with your private and personal vote. This is an overly used fallacy to justify compromising principles guilt-free.

Self-Proclaimed Selfish Libertarians
-These are those that have no respect for others liberty or the consequences of their actions that affects others. Often they justify what they do by ignoring that they're at fault for consequences. If they don't take responsibility by not acknowledging their consequences... they don't have to change, feel remorse or guilt, or admit they're wrong. They will even say that their actions are for the sake of their own liberty and no one else's... that they're doing what they are for "fun" and to feel better about themselves... when that's the very opposite of libertarianism as we all would respect each other's liberty enough to be careful with our actions.

The Willfully Ignorant and those in Pathological Denial
-These are those that tell themselves its everyone else that can't handle the truth about Romney or Obama, but when they don't like something themselves they go into down-rating mode and spam negative ratings because they themselves can't handle the truth regarding their savior, Ron Paul. These are the same that claim "THIS IS A RON PAUL SITE!!?!" when in reality it's a libertarian forum simply dedicated in name and with some forum space to the person that started the movement. It even says on the site logo "The Daily Paul is INSPIRED by Ron Paul". This goes along with the Ron Paul fanboys in the sense that they will hate on anything Gary Johnson related with "Go to the Daily Johnson with your GJ posts!".

In the end it comes down to that last one. People that argue for the sake of desperately holding onto their beliefs and being right in them are sabotaging any productive conversations that are happening here. They instantly discredit anything you say before even trying to consider or understand it.

The next time someone is acting like this... challenge them to prove that they understand what you're saying... what they're responding to... by having them put your own argument into their own words.

Most often times... you're going to find they can't... because the last thing they want to do is understand.

That is how we're going to end up sabotaging ourselves.

We have enough sabotaging our potential as it is. It doesn't need to be our own people with their close-mindedness and self-deceit.

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Gary Johnson, CONFIRMED

Gary Johnson, CONFIRMED LINO

"Gary Johnson on Wikileaks"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTWUctBpUxs

RT: "Would you be doing what President Obama is doing right now, would that include drone strikes, special operations teams that go into sovereign nations without their knowledge?" Gary Johnson: "I wouldn't want to misspeak, I wouldn't want to rule that out"

Wikileaks is the last place to be getting accurate information

...don't let others do your research for you.

RT: "Would you be doing what

RT: "Would you be doing what President Obama is doing right now, would that include drone strikes, special operations teams that go into sovereign nations without their knowledge?" Gary Johnson: "I wouldn't want to misspeak, I wouldn't want to rule that out"

This is the guy you want to represent the Libertarian Party? Are you trying to get people to laugh at Libertarians? Come on, I thought this was about the message, not the man. We can find a better man.

Still taken out of context...

...you're piece mealing and have only proven yourself naive. Johnson not being an absolutist on the subject of national security doesn't prove anything about him being a LINO.

IF you want to support a LINO

IF you want to support a LINO neo-con, that's your business. I don't care. Just don't attack me for doing the research. You do what you want with your vote.

I'd rather be a guy that

I'd rather be a guy that doesn't understand libertarian principles and philosophy but has more positions that happen to be libertarian (especially compared to our other choices) THAN be a self-proclaimed libertarian "truth-seeker" who, through mental masturbation, allows themselves to act and think carelessly, take no responsibility through willful ignorance, and then sabotage their own movement guilt free because they intentionally didn't link their actions to it and in the end can't handle certain truths which then show truths about them self... what they're ultimately avoiding.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

You didn't even watch the

You didn't even watch the video did you? The points I was trying to stress actually has nothing to do with wikileaks. At least try, when you troll me, geesh.

ROTFL

Seriously, you dont get it....yet-- I'll give you that much for your spunk on the topic.

I love all of the people that

I love all of the people that come on here focusing on Gary Johnson not being a true libertarian... but then fail to see how they themselves fit into one of the many categories of LINO.

I guess as long as you're attacking, you don't have to feel like you're on the defense.

Whatever works for you.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

Ok. Whatever that means. Are

Ok. Whatever that means. Are you supporting the Party over the candidate? Yea, some people asked me to do that with Mitt Romney, but I said no way. I put principle before party. I didn't mean to make you feel defensive. I just thought you should know more about the person you want to carry the Libertarian banner. Are you a real Libertarian, or are you just in it for the time being? What about Barr, did you vote for Bob Barr too?

To answer your question...

To answer your question... with my long list of reasons, much long than reasons to vote for Paul, I'll be voting for Gary Johnson whether he was on the LP ticket or not.

Quit the simplistic emotional thinking... and look at all of the aspects of the long-game.

Simple question that more and more people are avoiding like the plague...

...aside from "keeping our numbers together" and "showing our purity to the NAP"... how does a vote for Ron Paul promote the liberty movement to its full potential?

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

How does a vote for Johnson

How does a vote for Johnson promote the liberty movement? He's not even for Liberty. I would rather have no one, than have Gary represent Libertarianism. It seems like a compromise, and another attempt of the hi-jacking of the Libertarian party. Gary is not against the War on Drugs, he's not clear about the federal reserve, he doesn't understand monetary policy or the economic cycle, he's not opposed to Obamas' illegal wars, or military intervention. He says our troops are over seas fighting to keep us safe. He's not supportive of withdrawing our military bases. He's for the fair tax and "humanitarian wars". What does this guy have in common with Ron Paul anyway? All he does is spit talking points. If pressed on his positions he doesn't really know how to handle it. Gary is just not my candidate. He may be yours, good for you. I will not endorse the hi-jacking of the Libertarian party. I don't think you see the "long game" being played on the Libertarian Party. The LP has been infiltrated, and is intended to be used to control and compromise the Liberty movement.

I asked you a simple question

I asked you a simple question and you avoided it by turning the tables.

I have a long list that I've written several times on this site. I'll copy and paste it here as soon as you answer the very simple question.

Feel free to use an excuse as a cop out though too... many people like to do that. Afraid of a simple little question.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

Because ROn Paul preaches the

Because ROn Paul preaches the Liberty message. It's that simple. Gary does not.

You didn't answer the question... again...

How does a WRITE-IN for Ron Paul help the liberty movement reach its full potential now and in the future?

I'm not asking what Ron Paul does... I'm asking what the vote itself does.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

The person reading that

The person reading that ballot, may stop and think, "o yea Ron Paul, I've heard about him, he must be really popular, I'll have to take a look at his message". Also, if we get a whole lot of them, we could show some serious strength, possibly win the election, and/or send a message to the GOP and the entire political establishment altogether. Does that answer your question? Now tell me, what does voting for someone who doesn't understand monetary policy or the economic cycle, or non-interventionist foreign policy do to help the Liberty movement? You want people to laugh at the 'hypocritical Libertarian Party', by having not-Libertarian Gary Johnson be the poster boy for the Party? Is that a smart move? It could hurt the reputation of Libertarian-ism altogether. It seems to be more in the direction of compromising to the neo-con lite. He claims to carry the torch for Ron Paul, but he doesn't even deserve it.

So you're trading the one

So you're trading the one person who probably already very well knows who Ron Paul is over the millions of people that would wake up to how similar Obama and Romney are with Johnson on the national debate stage with them.

How noble of you.

My vote for Johnson isn't about him and his positions. The differences between him and Obamney is secondary.

Look at the bottom of the linked post under what "Support" for GJ does and what our "Unified Votes" behind GJ does.

It's a much longer list than what a write-in for Paul actually does.

http://www.dailypaul.com/253833/conflicting-principles-sabot...

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

And you seem to be

And you seem to be overlooking the fact of how similar Obama is to Johnson. Just do your research on the guy. Listen to all of his interviews. I'm done here. Peace.

Out of all the things it says

Out of all the things it says they agree on... the only thing that didn't make sense or seemed bad was their response to Iran... because in reality they aren't agreeing when it says they are.

How should the U.S. deal with Iran?
Barack Obama: Isolate through trade embargoesP4 C4
Gary Johnson: Iran does not threaten our national security and there is no proof they are building a nuclear weapon

http://www.isidewith.com/obama-vs-johnson-on-the-issues

Feel free to point out what I'm missing with what they agree on.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

"Just How Libertarian is Gary

"Just How Libertarian is Gary Johnson?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTch7InkZjo&feature=player_em...

xRegardsX

I find it difficult to believe that after only being a member of the DP for a hair over 16 days that you have been anything but a LP plant. Well guess what, I'm writing in Ron Paul. The only one in willful denial is libertarians that think Gary Johnson has a chance even with Ron Paul supporters. It seems like the most selfish libertarian here is you with your agressive 16 day push of Johnson on this website, without any regard as to what the rest of us may want to do with our vote. It seems like the biggest party loyalist here is you and your fierce loyalty to the LIbertarian Party, a party which always receives 0.5% in the election and is political suicide for this real movement. It seems to me our personal agenda is liberty, yours is Gary Johnson and the recruiting numbers of the LP. Finally, it seems to me that your the biggest GJ fanboy I have seen, the proverbial wolf in sheepskin clothing that seeks to selfishly destroy what we and Ron Paul have built in this party for your own parties gain. We are Ron Paul REPUBLICANS GOD DAMNIT! There is ZERO future for us in the LP! NONE! If there was Ron Paul would have stayed libertarian, but instead he went back to the RP because he sees what you don't. You are right about one thing though, there are LINOs in our midst that seek to sabotage us..... Look in the mirror, it's you.

“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.” - F.A. Hayek

I've been coming to this site

I've been coming to this site for over a year. I never had a reason to sign up and speak up until I realized the positive reasons to vote for Gary Johnson even if he's not a true libertarian that would in turn help the movement (and country, and possibly world) both now in 2012 and in 2016.

I had originally pledged to write-in Ron Paul... but then I stopped thinking emotionally... and decided to be objective and critical. (http://www.dailypaul.com/251148/should-we-write-in-dr-paul-i...)

Sadly, after finally conversing with many of you... I've found that the self-proclaimed "truth-seekers" were afraid of certain truths themselves... especially when it pointed out truths about themselves. That is what inspired this post. I wrote this post BEFORE I was finally given the conclusive evidence that Johnson wasn't a true libertarian (even though it seems he's learning). That doesn't change a SINGLE point made in this post. It still all stands unquestioned. Read my responses to comments and point out what thing I wasn't able to invalidate.

The only thing people that didn't like knowing this post was referring to them could do is try turning the focus on Gary Johnson (like the comment below yours). But whatever... that shows more about them than it does me or what we already know about GJ. They're just talking to feel justified in their positions, but not really saying anything at all.

Congratulations btw... you're the 200th person to try and attempt to discredit me with how long I've actually been signed up. Be proud of yourself, you're not original, and you've made no point.

As for your "write-in" and "willful denial" remark. I don't think GJ will win, but I think that he has a chance if he hits the national debates just right like Jesse Ventura did. 46% of Americans think both Obama and Romney are one of "two evils" and 60-80% of Americans are willing to consider a 3rd party candidate. It's a 3 way race. Do the math.

But that's not why I'm even voting for him... for him to "win". There are MANY positive things that happen for the liberty movement now and in the future if we unified behind Johnson... forgetting our votes as being "protest". "personal message", or deontologist way of absolving yourself or responsibility for any bad Johnson might do "He did a humanitarian war! It wasn't my fault! I voted for RP or not at all!!!".

I'm trying to gather up all of the things that people say helps promote the liberty movement's potential to its fullest... so far I've only got "It keeps makes us counted and shows we're not divided" and "It shows we're pure in principle regarding the NAP".

So I ask you, what else does a write-in for Paul do to promote the liberty movement now and in the future?

As far as "selfish party loyalist"... I'm pretty sure many Democrats and Republicans felt the same exact way about your loyalty to Paul with how a vote for him was a vote for the other guy... or whatever other BS they told you. "You're sabotaging the Republican party!!?!"

I have plenty of valid reasons to push Gary Johnson, many of which people choose to ignore, try to discredit me fallacies so they don't have to consider anything I say, but for whatever reason... they never try to invalidate the actual reasons aside from a simple contradiction "That won't work, because of [insert baseless claim they can't back up here]!"

So just like you had many reasons to push Paul when a vote for him used to actually produce something of long lasting value, I have my longer list of reasons that I've been ignored and alienated over. It's the same damn willful ignorance neo-cons used. It's funny how libertarians think they're untouched by the human condition... how there's no way a truth-seeker could also lie to themselves. It's pathetic actually. Just as pathetic as a pro-war/pro-life Christian is.

I don't need to have "regard" for what you'll do with your vote. You're going to do whatever you want with it. I'm just trying to show some facts to people that have an open-mind. Never has anyone said "You made some great points, but I'm still voting for Paul". It isn't because they were able to invalidate the points I made... it's because most people on here simply won't consider it and will fight took and nail to make sure they don't have to be open-minded.

Read my signature. The last thing I am is a loyalist to anything. I'm not a loyalist to the GOP, not a loyalist to the LP, not a loyalist to GP, and even not a loyalist to RP.

Being any kind of loyalist means being willing to sacrifice the truth in order to keep defending something that really doesn't deserve defending at that point. But please, call me a loyalist if it makes you feel better about yourself and the credibility of your argument.

As far as their numbers go, I've already pointed out the historically high statistics of people willing to vote for a 3rd party that want a "good candidate" versus their only two choices. Ross Perot got 19.6% of the vote in 1992, went on to form his own party, and then got LESS than half of that in 1996. That cemented in the idea that 3rd party couldn't win. We're now at a point where that discontent has grown so much that people are willing to look elsewhere again. The biggest difference between then and now? We have the same tool that helped more than double Ron Paul's support in 4 years time, the internet. If Gary Johnson (regardless of party affiliation) seems to be the contrasting better candidate in the national debates... even just a portion of that 46-60-80% of voters can win a 3-way race. But if you want to keep overlooking aspects such as time period and the differences of the national mentality, what people now think about 3rd parties, and what we have now that makes a big difference that we didn't have then... again... that's your freedom to do so.

"fanboy" = Loyalist, so again... no

I'm a Ron Paul republican myself... Exhibit A (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.840325873507.22169...)

This isn't about becoming part of or promoting an "official" libertarian party as you're trying to imply. I'd be voting for Johnson even if he didn't call himself a libertarian or were running on the LP ticket. But feel free to keep implying all the assumptions you like about me and my intentions... that's your freedom to do so.

Honestly, I think Ron Paul would have had a much better chance running 3rd party himself this time around. We would have been able to spend an entire year getting his numbers up to the 15% he needed for the national debates early on. The difference of even 4 years ago and today regarding the power of the internet and social networking is astounding. Everyone I know says they come to me to stay in the loop. Those that felt comfortable voting in a Republican primary did so... I even brought them the paper work to register as a Republican seeing as CT is a closed primary state... and those that still hated what the GOP has stood for to them their entire lives still loved Paul and would have voted for him if he were in the general election. Now they're all switching to GJ for the reasons I've mentioned to them.

The real LINO's are those not only too close-minded to consider FACTS over their emotional and overly simplistic thinking... why does that make them a LINO?

Because they sabotage potential.
Because they aren't really the "truth-seeker" they wanted to think they were.
Because they're not careful enough with their actions and consequences to see how they really affect others... just so they don't have to take on the official or emotional responsibility for them.

If these people were true libertarians... they would be a lot more careful and a lot less careless.

So, I believe I've hit and addressed every point you tried making thoroughly. Feel free to try invalidating anything I've said. Something tells me you won't, because you can't though. That isn't arrogance... it's assertiveness with good reason. That reason being how easily you allow yourself to run off with assumptions as though they're the truth. You've proven you have no integrity to yourself, even if you tell yourself you do. It's an integrity of convenience... which isn't integrity at all.

If you won't try invalidating what I've said... you'll come up with some ad hominem fallacies to try attacking me with or will use an excuse as a cop out and when called out on it you'll come up with another excuse or just quit the conversation like a coward using another ad hominem.

But whatever... I don't know anything. You might actually surprise me and do neither of those things. You might actually have your head outside of your ass :D

Answer the VERY SIMPLE question... aside from "showing our purity to the NAP" to anyone that even realizes that from looking at write-in votes (which would be no one) and "showing that this wasn't a fluke by sticking together" to the 2% of the nation that even thinks to wonder what happened to the libertarian movement that didn't already know...

...how does a write-in vote for Ron Paul promote the liberty movement to its full potential?

Please tell me you're not going to avoid this very simple question too :(

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

You didn't even read, watch,

You didn't even read, watch, or take any facts from my posts into regard. You just automatically attacked me, without talking about Gary's positions one bit. You need to do your homework on GJ and the LP before you just go blindly voting, that's part of the problem for the downfall of this country.
Do you think the LP would accept Federal funding if it were available to them next election?

My list of reasons to vote

My list of reasons to vote for Gary Johnson has MORE to do with the how it affects the liberty movement in 2012 and 2016 than it does with his actual possible presidency being slightly better than Obamney's.

I don't need to reread all of the negatives about GJ and how he's not a true libertarian. All of that stuff doesn't change the valid reasoning I have.

But feel free to ASSUME that the things you've said I haven't heard or considered before.

Everything I just wrote to this other guy (or you if it's just a second account) is valid regardless.

Instead of attacking me with your assumptions in order to feel like your side of the whole thing is making a better case for itself... attack the points I've made.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

I just blocked the guy via my profile

He is quite the pest.

You should have seen the last

You should have seen the last part of our last conversation before he blocked me lol

He kept avoiding a SIMPLE question like it was the plague, then started giving excuses, I called him on it, predicted he would use an excuse for a cop out... and then he goes and blocks like a child. Might as well be closing his eyes, plugging his ears, and going "na na na na nahhh I can't hear you".

If that's what you need to do to stay ignorant. That's your freedom... sadly.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

What was the question?

What was the question?

You've could've just looked

You've could've just looked at the end of the last comment I left you before me saying "you avoided the question"... but I'll save you the time of looking and just copy/paste it for you.

"Simple question that more and more people are avoiding like the plague...

...aside from "keeping our numbers together" and "showing our purity to the NAP"... how does a vote for Ron Paul promote the liberty movement to its full potential?"

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

This statement is not true.

"-These are those that would vote for Paul because he's Pro-Life while they wouldn't vote for Johnson because he's Pro-Choice... completely choosing to ignore that BOTH candidates put state's rights before their own personal belief."

So, you're saying Gary Johnson wants to overturn Roe v. Wade? Are you saying Gary Johnson wants to leave marriage up to the states? That's what Ron Paul wants to do. I'm fine with someone who is personally pro-choice or pro-homosexual - as long as they believe in the rule of law, states' rights and the tenth amendment on both issues. Gary Johnson does NOT as is obvious by his support of activist judges' decisions to overturn Proposition 8. The people of California have just as much right to choose to make their laws on marriage like any other state.

Johnson is a Progressive who believes in balanced budgets.

"Judges should be appointed

"Judges should be appointed who will interpret the Constitution according to its original meaning. Any court decision that does not follow this original meaning of the Constitution should be revisited. That is particularly true of decisions such as Roe vs. Wade, which have expanded the reach of the Federal government into areas of society never envisioned in the Constitution. With the overturning of Roe vs Wade, laws regarding abortion would be decided by the individual states." ---Extracted from Gary Johnson’s Our America Initiative site

According to the chart on the bottom of this site using all of the positions he's ever been public about... he's considered to hold libertarian positions the most... sorry ;P

http://www.ontheissues.org/gary_johnson.htm

http://www.ontheissues.org/VoteMatch/candidate_map.asp?a1=2&...

Make sure to come back and try again when you find something else untrue about him :D

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally