32 votes

Governor Paul and Secession.

Governor Paul and Secession. Time to Fire up the Texas Governor 2014 and ditch DC. Would you not move to Texas if Ron Paul was governor?




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I love Missouri

But I would want to be in Texas if that happened.

Secession is a buzz word often thrown around with 'Treason'

Ron Paul can define plans that create lasting results.

Liberty Candidates should be kicking ass domestically in the Republican Party where foreign policy doesn't mean jack. THEN, we can change the foreign policy.

If Debra Medina almost ended Perry, Paul would bring the cataclysm in Texas.

================================
Fight the Ron Paul blackout on the Daily Paul (now 'P AU L'), put his removed poster back as your avatar:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9ir62bp8nshv83m

Meh. I'd rather see people

Meh. I'd rather see people come to the realization that they can be their own leaders and actually do not need any governing at all.

Southern Agrarian

I'd go. The interview where

I'd go.

The interview where he told the truth about Lincoln being a tyrant and the war being more about centralization of power is what caught my eye. He was the first politician i'd ever heard tell the truth... Looking into him more to see if he told the truth in other areas is what got me learning much more.

"You must be frank with the world; frankness is the child of honesty and courage...Never do anything wrong to make a friend or keep one...Above all do not appear to others what you are not" - Robert E. Lee, CSA

Secession is relegated to the

Secession is relegated to the fringes of politics, because so few people actually want to secede.

Outside of Alaska, Texas is the only state with a significant secessionist movement, and only 25% of Texas at that wish to secede. That number is likely a lot smaller in real-terms, because you have a lot of hotshots that give secession this kind of lip service, but don't actually want to secede (which can be evidenced by the lack of real (not lip-service) pro-secessionist support in the Texas Congress). Moreover, there is a good chance, that like in South Carolina or Missouri, secessionist want to secede in order to create a Biblical theocracy.

Look at the whole nullify Obamacare movement! It started off so powerful, and then just withered and died.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Vermont also has a strong

Vermont also has a strong secessionist movement. They want to secede so they can be more socialist. I'd say that's great. It would make the federal government more conservative. And if a state wanted to leave so they could be a biblical theocracy, I'd say that's great too. It keeps them from imposing their will on 49 other states and would give them the ability to have government more in line with their values.

California, Oregon, Colorado and others are leading the way in nullification of marijuana laws. Ohio and others are nullifying obamacare. TN has nullified gun regulations of guns made and sold within the state. SO i'd say state sovereignty is alive and well.

"You must be frank with the world; frankness is the child of honesty and courage...Never do anything wrong to make a friend or keep one...Above all do not appear to others what you are not" - Robert E. Lee, CSA

The Vermont secessionist

The Vermont secessionist movement, IIRC, has the support of 13% of the population, and since they are good 'ol libs, I imagine that much of the support is posturing. There is nothing preventing them from becoming more socialist, like Mass has (to great effect, by the way).

My point about theocracy is that some states may have secessionist movements for different reasons than one might think; they want massively larger government, not smaller. Even so, the movements are tiny.

True, some nullification has worked; great for them. Although the Ohio nullification of Obamacare has not nullified the tax on non-participants; they've just avowed that no state tax would be applied. Rejecting the tax on non-participants would be the key and bold step.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

As big as Texas is

I doubt it's big enough to hold all the people who would want to move there to be living in a true republic with President Paul as its first president. :)

I wonder which side Mexico would support if war actually

broke out? Mexico has pros and cons in it's involvement. I also wonder which other states would ally themselves with Texas?

Perhaps

Perhaps Arizona... similar problems with the border. If New Mexico came on board, that would be a nice South/Southwestern bloc.

Unreconstructed's picture

Secession - Rights versus Responsibilities

Honestly, Ron Paul's defense of the right of secession is what won me over to him in the first place. Never before had I heard a politician (a presidential candidate, at that) take such a brave stand on such a controversial issue.

Secession is the basic classical-liberal principle which Thomas Jefferson eloquently defended in the Declaration of Independence, that governments are established for certain ends, but when government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was originally established, the people have the right to alter/abolish that government. The War for American Independence began with American secession from the British Empire.

Later, in Article II of the Articles of Confederation ("Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated") and the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution ("The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people") secession as a states' rights was affirmed.

Of course, secession's current stigma comes from its association with the Confederacy. Since the established narrative of history is that the Constitution "forged a nation" - despite literally no supporting evidence of that claim - the states' right of secession was ruled obsolete. Furthermore, although the Southern states seceded for freedom from taxation without representation, and the federal government invaded to preserve its money and power, federal propaganda duped many Northerners and foreigners into believing that the war was fought over abolition. Subsequent generations have been further indoctrinated into believing this narrative of history. Having twisted states'-rights terms like secession and nullification into symbols of slavery and racism, the federal government gleefully centralized power under false pretenses.

Secession, despite the sovereign right of any free people anywhere, may not be responsible. After all, the federal government, already capable of economic exploitation and mass murder in 1861, has only grown mightier since then. If a relatively conservative state like Texas secedes, for example, the federal government will, under the pretense of "preserving the Union," wage total war against Texas and her allies. Simply put, self-defense dictates that the sword of secession remain sheathed for the time being.

Secession's time will come, however. Eventually, the federal colossus will become so top-heavy that it will crash, or as Peter Drucker phrased it, "smother itself in its own fat." Already, the present value of federal off-budget unfunded liabilities exceeds $200 trillion, in addition to the on-budget national debt of $16 trillion. Even if this sum could be taxed, it would amount to the virtual enslavement of the population. The more likely scenario is years of rising taxes and rising inflation before an inevitable default. At the same time, the federal government presides over an overextended empire, creating more problems than it solves ("blowback") in the very countries it occupies.

On the glorious day when the federal government finally crashes, secession will occur de facto, as local municipalities, counties, and states resume their sovereignty and govern themselves. A completely voluntary society based on peace and commerce may not be the end result, but the closer a government is to the ideal of self-government, the more representative, accountable, and competitive it must be. Conversely, the more power is centralized, the less sovereign the individual becomes over his own person, prosperity, and property. Like the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, the federal government will be too impotent to protest the loss of its states. Secession is the future, but the Revolution must play its cards right to ensure it happens as peacefully as possible.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors, but today we kneel only to truth." - Kahlil Gibran

Ruth Bader Ginsburg made the

Ruth Bader Ginsburg made the argument back in her law-school days, that since states have the right to nullify or secede (and the united states have the ability to kick-out other states) from the union, the power of the federal government is broadened. Government adopts Obamacare. You don't like it? Secede/nullify! Government bans abortion. You don't like it? Secede/nullify!

She argued that instead of such an interpretation, the states only have the right to secede or nullify when the federal government does something strictly against the Constitution, and their right to do so varies with the interpretation against the Constitution. For example, the states would have a very strong right to nullify or secede over Roe vs. Wade, which was Constitutionalized on very shaky ground, but absolutely no right to nullify or secede under anti-slavery laws. In essense, if a state decided to ignore the 13th amendment, the federal government would be perfectly reasoned in placing that state under federal control or forcing the state to allow dissenting citizens to move into US territory.

Under that interpretation, Ginsburg argued that if a state did not nullify or secede over something, they were accepting its constitutional validity. This also would be used to intepret the secession of individuals from states.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

I haven't been in the U.S. since...

1999, but I'd renew my passport and be on the next plane to the nation of Texas... freest, most peaceful and prosperous nation on earth!

Look, I'm sick of saying

Look, I'm sick of saying this.

When Ron Paul retires, he's coming to New Zealand. We called dibs on him months ago.

I don't think NZ can hold us all.

Because if RP is there we are all coming.

Sorry, but didn't New Zealand rename itself 'New Middle Earth'

to cash in on all those Hobbit movies a few years back?

The Under-Lying Truth
Anti-Panda Propaganda Systems
--------------
Ron Paul: "If you ever can bring about revolutionary changes two things would be required: young people... and music."

If he does not win the Presidency of the US, Dr. Paul is........

.........going to run for Governor of Texas in 2014 to finally run Perry out of office! ( Although I appreciate that ya'll would want him in New Zealand ).

You obviously don't

You obviously don't understand the concept of 'dibs'. :)

Now why would you doom poor Texas to the same fate as the south?

Wow, all I have to say about this is that those who fail to learn about history are doomed to repeat it.

...Dr. Paul certainly wouldn't be that stupid. He's seen the size of the US Army.

HONEST RON 2012!
LEGALIZE LIBERTY!

Excuse me?

We lost because of two things.

1) The death of Stonewall Jackson.
2) General Longstreet's near treachery at the Battle of Gettysburg.

Actually, we could have won the war in the first month if President Davis had authorized Jackson to march on Washington after the battle of First Manassas. Union troops were in total panic and disorder - we could have literally walked into Washington and grabbed Lincoln. Negotiations would have been quite awkward.

The Confederacy got blockaded, burned, bombed (hey, alliteration!), sacked, pillaged, and zerg rushed by numerically, technologically, and logistically superior forces, and still managed to keep fighting for almost five years. If it happened again, we would see guerilla warfare as the primary means of combat, and the Union would have to seriously be concerned about sabotage from inside its borders. Texans wouldn't be the only ones fighting, I promise you.

Of course, you have to ask yourself: would they really be able to get the moral high ground in invading Texas now that the pseudo-justification of slavery is removed? It would be an absolute PR disaster, and a good portion of the military (I know soldiers like this personally) would have none of it.

Unreconstructed's picture

Emancipation Proclamation and Sharpsburg Stalemate

Agreed, but losing the war may have been a foregone conclusion even sooner. The stalemate at Sharpsburg (a battle in which McClellan, despite outnumbering and outgunning Lee, in addition to having access to his battle plans, still failed to win) followed by Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation (an unconstitutional edict which purported to "free the slaves" in the Confederate states while continuing to enforce slavery in federal-occupied territory like Maryland) was a crushing blow to the free and independent Confederacy in several ways. First, the failure to win a decisive victory against the federal invaders in the U.S. (Maryland being a Southern state under martial law occupied by Federal troops) denied the Confederacy the leverage they needed to negotiate a diplomatic resolution to the conflict. Second, by twisting the war around from a conquest of the South to a liberation of the slaves, Lincoln shrewdly preempted foreign intervention from England or France.

After that, the Confederates soon smashed the Federals at Chancellorsville, but at the cost of the military genius and Lee's "right arm," Stonewall Jackson. Gettysburg was Lee's last hope, but sadly everything went wrong for Lee over those few days, and the Army of Northern Virginia was not able to prevail against the entrenched Federals.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors, but today we kneel only to truth." - Kahlil Gibran

Half that army is in Texas

The South held its own just fine until they stopped fighting and Sherman/Lincoln campaign murdered them all. And, had Stonewall not been killed by friendly fire they would have won the war and we all would now have liberty.

Texas was an independent nation before joining the USA.

If you had the opportunity to start a new country with a vibrant economy, run by a government that believed in sound money, non-interventionism and the rule of law, wouldn't you want to live there?

As for repeating history, new history occurs everyday. What if the Pilgrims had said: "Nawwww, we don't need religious freedom. Look what happened to those last guys that tried it." What if the Founding Fathers followed your advice? Do you think we are the first republic? According to you they would say: "Personal liberty? To much risk of failing! We are better off under tyranny."

Willl's picture

Slavery is the difference between the two situations

The Federal Government had no legal authority to invade the South. But the moral authority that the hideous abomination of human slavery, which must be opposed by all those who love liberty, gave the North, allowed them to invade.

There is no slavery now, hence no authority to oppose secession.

It's 1776 again in America

I stand to differ with you.

We do have slavery today. The USA is one big plantation with politicians and those who back them being the masters, and the majority living as slaves under their subjugation.

You don't see the chains because they are invisible, but they are there in the form of taxes, interest, and monopoly prices, and countless laws that destroy our freedom.

Voting is just a sham to make people believe they are free, yet the distribution of wealth, resembling that on a slave plantation, provides ample evidence that the majority are enslaved.

As far as the myth that the Civil War was fought to end slavery, you are also in error. It was fought principally because the Southern States were paying 90% of the taxes that funded the federal government since most of the taxes on imports were collected in Southern ports. Slavery was far down on the list of possible causes, and Lincoln himself was not opposed to slavery until he saw such a position as useful to keep France and England out from aiding the South.

Liberty isn't given to us; it is taken by us, and if not, we will not have it.

Willl's picture

Please read my comments below

I did not argue that the Civil War was fought to end slavery, and never would. I broadly agree with you about the current state of the US, however you are only equating that with the actual human chattel market because you are lucky enough not to have to experience it. Go and read "One day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" or watch "Lilya 4 Ever" to learn about actual slavery, and the difference between it and your life. Americans are not complete slaves, yet.

It's 1776 again in America

Unreconstructed's picture

Seriously?

Please, do not make me laugh. Are you aware the slavery had nothing to do with the so-called "Civil War" (where I'm from, the War for Southern Independence!) and that, in fact, taxation without representation (i.e. how federal protective tariffs economically exploited the South) was the driving issue? For generations, Northern states had enacted federal protective tariffs into law which, among other things, granted a government-enforced monopoly to Northern industry, forcing Southerners to purchase overtaxed foreign goods or overpriced Northern goods, thereby redistributing Southern property to the federal or corporate treasuries. In 1860, after federal tariffs had been lowered to competitive levels, Abraham Lincoln campaigned in favor of restoring federal protectionism. At the same time, Republicans in Congress were working to pass the "Morrill Tariff," a protectionist tariff that tripled rates. After the Morrill Tariff was signed into law and Lincoln elected, the Southern states, seeing the writing on the wall for more federal oppression, invoked their constitutional (Tenth Amendment) and natural (Declaration of Independence) right of secession. The federal government and Northern industry, fearing the loss of the money and power which which they were accustomed to looting from the South, invaded under the specious pretense of "preserving the Union." Look at Ron Paul's own comments on the "Civil War" for some enlightenment:

http://newsone.com/1812845/ron-paul-made-south-was-right-civ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbOE4Ip7In0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CigdTwwO7-I

Here are some illuminating quotes for your edification:

"...war is most often fought for economic reasons. But economic wars are drive by moral and emotional overtones. Our own Revolution was fought to escape from excessive taxation, but was inspired and drive by our desire to protect our God-given right to liberty. The War Between the States, fought primarily over tariffs, was nonetheless inspired by the abhorrence of slavery. It is this moral inspiration that drives people to fight to the death, as so many Americans did between 1861 and 1865."

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do abut slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union." - Abraham Lincoln to Horace Greeley

"On the part of the North, the war was carried on, not to liberate slaves, but by a government that had always perverted and violated the Constitution, to keep the slaves in bondage; and was still willing to do so, if the slaveholders could be thereby induced to stay in the Union.
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals." - Lysander Spooner, Northern anarcho-capitalist and abolitionist

"We are the serfs of the system, out of whose labor is raised, not only the money paid into the treasury, but also the funds out of which are drawn the rich rewards of the manufacturer and his associates in interest. Their encouragement is our discouragement. The duty on imports, which is mainly paid out of our labor, gives them the means of selling to us at a higher price; while we cannot, to compensate the loss, dispose of our products at the least advance. It is then, indeed, not a subject of wonder, when understood, that our section of the country, though helped by a kind Providence with a genial sun and prolific soil, from which spring the richest products, should languish in poverty and sink into decay, while the rest of the Union, though less fortunate in natural advantages, are flourishing in unexampled prosperity." - John C. Calhoun, 1828

"The Southern states now stand in the same relation towards the Northern states, in the vital matter of taxation, that our ancestors stood towards the people of Great Britain. They are in a minority in Congress. Their representation in Congress is useless to protect them against unjust taxation; and they are taxed by the people of the North for their benefit, exactly as the people of Great Britain taxed our ancestors in the British parliament for their benefit. For the last forty years, the taxes laid by the Congress of the United States have been laid with a view of subserving the interests of the North. The people of the South have been taxed by duties on imports, not for revenue, but for an object inconsistent with revenue - to promote, by prohibitions, Northern interests in the productions of their mines and manufactures.
"The people of the Southern states are not only taxed for the benefit of the Northern states, but after the taxes are collected three-fourths of them are expended at the North. This cause, with others connected with the operation of the general government, has provincialized the cities of the South. Their growth is paralyzed, while they are the mere suburbs of Northern cities. The bases of the foreign commerce of the United States are the agricultural productions of the South; yet Southern cities do not carry it on." - South Carolina Secession Ordinance, 1861

Finally, war is only ever just if it is defensive, yet even if the federal government was invading to "free the slaves," how can that possibly be construed as defensive? War is also only just if it targets combatants, but the chief characteristic of any invasion is plunder, rape, and murder, which is exactly what war criminals like Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan committed against Southern women and children. Furthermore, the domestic actions of the federal government - military coups against states, suspension of the Bill of Rights, illegally levying an unconstitutional income tax, nationalizing banking, etc. - discredit the claim that slavery was a motive behind the war. The War of Northern Aggression was an opportunity for the federal government to eradicate the republic of states' rights once and for all and erect a centralized empire in its place.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors, but today we kneel only to truth." - Kahlil Gibran

Willl's picture

Yes, seriously.

That is quite a diatribe. However you are pretty much arguing with yourself, as I already know and agree with virtually all you just said.

Please read the actual words that I wrote, and respond to them, instead of assuming my point fits into some preconceived one that you have argued against before.

"...the claim that slavery was a motive behind the war"

I never made that claim, nor would I. I said that slavery was a JUSTIFICATION for the war, without which it probably wouldn't have occurred and without which it definitely would not have had the same outcome.

The destruction of slavery was the rationale the North needed to declare, prosecute, recruit, finance and win the war.

So your statement "slavery had nothing to do with the so-called "Civil War" is also an overstatement, though understandable.

My POINT is, (when you've finished your Civil War speechifying! ; )) that in the ABSENCE of slavery, as now, Texas, and indeed any other state, would have a different experience of secession with a vastly greater chance of success, than the South back then.

So the argument that 'they already tried that' is NOT an argument against the prospects for seceding today.

Here is my suggestion for Maine:
http://www.dailypaul.com/252171/what-mainers-should-do-now

Here is an essay I wrote many years ago which further explains my point about Jefferson (who is nevertheless one of my favorite American statesmen, though not, as Ron Paul, a Christian.)
rutlischwur.wordpress.com

And here is some background of where I'm coming from regarding the Civil War's fatal effect on the US Constitution and US Liberty (n.b. I know nothing else of Sobran or his other opinions, other than this essay and I agree with it):
http://www.sobran.com/articles/tyranny.shtml

It's 1776 again in America

Unreconstructed's picture

Sorry

I must have misread what you said, which is why I was off my rocker. I'm sorry.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors, but today we kneel only to truth." - Kahlil Gibran