-18 votes

I can not in good conscience vote for Gary Johnson - if you don't understand the LIFE issue you don't understand Liberty

While I have no problem with My Ron Paul friends and Daily Paul activists choosing to vote Gary Johnson, I cannot support him and will not vote for him.

I am Pro Life, I believe once a person is created, that person has a RIGHT to exist. It's the highest form of true liberty, because if you don't have the right to exist, you have no other rights. I have heard all the variations on when life begins, some people saying multi cell structures are not humans, to those that believe in unrestricted anytime abortion like Gary Johnson. At conception, every aspect of a unique person is created in the form of a DNA strand, eyes, intelligence, height, even medical problems, there is no other person that has that exact DNA code on the planet. We have choices we make every day, we choose to marry, go to college, commit crimes, speed, back candidates and have sex. When you make that choice to have sex you know the consequences, just like when you speed or rob a bank. Once life has been created, it can't be turned back, unless that life is extinguished. Libertarianism is all based on laws that do not harm others, like legalization of Pot, but Abortion is the killing of something, no matter how small, so indeed it is harming by the act of destroying the person to be. The woman is not destroying her body by bringing a pregnancy to term, her body still has every organ and works the same regardless.

I wonder where we would be if abortions were legal back in the 1960's, 50's 40's etc? Would you be here, would Dr. Paul be here? Would Steve Jobs have been here? With well over 50 million abortions in the US since abortions were legalized, a good chance not.

For all my anti-war friends, if we allow there to be a war on the unborn, and if we don't respect life, how can we ever expect fellow Americans to care about war? Respect for life starts at the beginning, not at the end. We have cheapened life so much, that lives are now commodities, sometimes on the battlefield, sometimes on the abortion table, soon to be on death panels at your local post office like medical office. Are you too old? do you bring anything to society? are you a Republican or Democrat?, oh third party, health care denied.

It's a slippery slope, every step you take makes it that much harder to climb back up the hill.

I will write Ron Paul in, or if that's not possible vote for the Constitution Party candidate, or sit on my hands.

Ron Paul 2012

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sooooo

Economic melt down and locking people up in the police state is better?
I don't like the thought of voting Gary Johnson either. If he doesn't pick up the pace and become a real contender in this election, I will be writing Ron Paul. If it looks he even has a slim chance to win, I will vote for him. If you want to hold to that one issue and ignore the SO many other issues, well that your business, but there is a lot more at stake than abortion. And no I don't agree with abortion being legal.

To set up some competition to

To set up some competition to the two party duopoly for 2016, a win is 5%. GJ can do that, so I hope you help him and us achieve it. That 5% can start to crack the duopoly.

Face it: GJ and/or RP will not win.

But, I'll sleep much better and be able to look my kids in the face if I vote for RP and tell them I NEVER compromised on my principles.

Ends justify means is exactly what has gotten us into this current mess.

"Liberty's too precious a thing to be buried in books...Men should hold it up in front of them every single day of their lives and say: 'I'm free to think and to speak. My ancestors couldn't. I can. And my children will."

-Jimmy Stewart

HEAR HEAR!

LIFE, in all it's forms must be protected.

"Liberty's too precious a thing to be buried in books...Men should hold it up in front of them every single day of their lives and say: 'I'm free to think and to speak. My ancestors couldn't. I can. And my children will."

-Jimmy Stewart

SteveMT's picture

Do guns kill people? Or do people using guns kill people?

Do cigarettes kill people or do people smoking cigarettes kill people?
Does alcohol kill people or do people drinking alcohol kill people?

Does the availability of abortion kill people or do people using abortion kill people?

Cliffs do not kill people; Only people jumping off or falling off of one will.

Morality cannot be legislated for or against. Sharks only kill people who are in the ocean. The government forcing all people either into or out of the water is equally wrong. With Liberty comes responsibility. People have the freedom to do what they want, but they have to live with their decisions.

This logic means that NONE of our rights

are protected by the government or anyone else. Laws exist for a reason, the primary one is the protection of individual rights. The fundamental individual right is the right to life.

Free and Brave
or Cradle to Grave
You can't have both

SteveMT's picture

Individual rights means independent from others.

An embryo becomes a fetus at 8 weeks gestation, but is not viable until minimally 22-28 weeks gestation. These babies and ones even more developed all require huge interventions to prevent death.

Individual rights apply to individuals capable of independent living. A "viable" fetus is equivalent to a person on life support. Ethical decisions are made everyday about these unfortunates as to whether their potential for recovery is high or low and whether their life should be sustained or not.

jaseed's picture

You Can Forgive

You can forgive someone for most anything, but that doesn't mean they belong in a national office as leader!
From what I've heard, willard and the mrs gave $125,000 to "PP". GJ, Jesse V, Barbara and Laura Bush all pro-"choice". Send em all to Crawford, Texas. Let em rock away in retirement on the ranch with dubya!

“The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.”

– Thomas Jefferson

The Issue is NOT one of Morality but Fatality.

So by your logic: It is ok for me to kill someone, provided I can morally live with my actions?

Do you condone murder? Or do you just accept the idea of a society with no laws protecting life against acts of violence?

Your logic:

Having laws that allow people to kill, do not make them kill.

Fair enough, but what you are arguing for is absolute anarchy...

You should rethink your argument sir.

"Liberty's too precious a thing to be buried in books...Men should hold it up in front of them every single day of their lives and say: 'I'm free to think and to speak. My ancestors couldn't. I can. And my children will."

-Jimmy Stewart

SteveMT's picture

"what you are arguing for is absolute anarchy"

Absolute "responsibility" is more like what I want to see.

As Ron Paul has said "If drugs were legalized, would you become a heroin addict?" No, I hope, but why not? That "No" reason is what I'm getting at. We would say no to drugs because we know the consequences of drug use. We have more to lose than to gain, so we say no.

There are laws that protect the unborn at least in some circumstances, albeit ex post facto. Scott Pederson was charged with double homicide for the killing of Lacey and her unborn child.

Peterson Convicted Of Double Murder
By Kimberly Edds and Amy Argetsinger - Saturday, November 13, 2004

REDWOOD CITY, Calif., Nov. 12 -- A jury found Scott Peterson guilty Friday of killing his pregnant wife, Laci, and their unborn child in the saga of suburban adultery and betrayal that transfixed much of the nation for nearly two years.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45520-2004Nov...

Guns are a bad comparison...

to abortion. Guns have valid purposes besides violence. Literally the only purpose of abortion is to kill.

I don't play, I commission the league.

SteveMT's picture

Abortion has other purposes as well like saving the mother.

Tubal pregnancies will kill moms. Infections, trauma, placental abnormalities and abruptions, plus many others, can kill both the mother and the baby. Saving one person versus losing both are real possibilities these days.

Even then...

an abortion still cannot happen without life being killed, whereas a gunshot is not always lethal.

I don't play, I commission the league.

SteveMT's picture

Below the age of viability, the baby dies no matter what.

"There is no specific scientific or ethical consensus regarding the exact age of viability for a fetus. Depending on how one defines "viable," a fetus may pass this milestone any time between 21 weeks and 28 weeks of gestation."

"Because there are constant advances in care for preterm babies, the definiton of viability has changed dramatically in recent years. In the past, babies born at 30 weeks usually died. However, advances in medicine have enabled a few newborns to survive even if they are born as early as 21 weeks into gestation."
http://voices.yahoo.com/when-age-viability-fetus-7678400.html

We are overturning abortion by not voting Johnson, wow.

I am voting Johnson or Paul as a protest vote against the Republican party. Abortion is not going to be decided ever until there is a real change in the population.

When does life begin? If I murder a pregnant mother life begins at conception with many prosecutors! The Government would have you believe it begins when the mother feels like it.

I voted for many pro-life candidates that did nothing for the pro-life issue. Since both establishment candidates are Abortionist, it would not bother me to vote Johnson.

I was going to vote Johnson until Paul was recognized as a write-in in Minnesota. My heart wants to vote Paul but I want to get the Libertarian party some recognition in this election. We really need to try and kill the duopoly party!

After voting straight Republican party since Jimmy Carter, I think I may need a change this time around.

Gold standard: because man can not be trusted to control his greed

excellent post. I was going

excellent post. I was going to vote for Johnson till a few days ago. this is the issue that pursuaded me to write in Ron Paul. In Colorado they count the write in votes. Filled out my ballot and sent it in. Also voted no on retaining all the judges, voted no on the county school tax increase, Voted for the Libertarian Atwood who was running against Dianna degette and some moron neocon from the Republican party. VOTED YES FOR LEGALISATION OF MARIJAUNA. Voted for the Libitarian who is running for the CU regent position. Did not vote for the state senate position since I never vote for democrates and the moron Ken suthers is a neocon Republican. No Libertarian running so did not vote. Voted yes for limiting campaign contibutions.

Gary Johnson is a puppet

And here come his apologist sycophants turning a blind eye to the modern eugenic agenda, and pretending they see no connection between life and liberty.

Just Baffling...

I can't believe this post has gotten so many down votes. As a father, I am sickened by how many here seem eager to kill the unborn. The author makes an excellent point - one that was made very clear by Ron Paul - you cannot defend liberty if you don't defend life first. We all have a right to exist.

I'd like to know how many parents down voted this? If you're single, I can better understand this perspective, as it's most likely those individuals don't have a handle on how precious life is. But I cannot for the life of me see why a parent would ever defend abortion. Seeing your kids via ultrasound and also the minute they are born will change you in ways you can't possibly imagine.

I'm for Ron Paul and agree with his position on defending the rights of the unborn.

Since the presidency is not legislative, it shouldn't matter

Constitutionally speaking, neither Paul nor Johnson can legislate their life-choice positions, since the president cannot make law. Their job would be to either execute the acts of congress or veto those acts.

What this informs us about in their contrasting world-views is the way they hold to their differing spiritual convictions in light of all the scientific evidence of life beginning at conception.

Being a parent ought to help folks straighten out their thinking here, but just being here to read this at all means that mercy and grace has brought you safe thus far, and grace should be passed on...

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

I'm a parent

Father of 5, 3 above ground. Twins didn't make it. They died in our arms.

My older sister is a dwarf. One of the smallest in the world. Married, successful, happy...

After being married several years, she and my brother-in-law had an "accident" and she became pregnant.

You have to understand, I love my sister with all my heart. She basically raised me, being about 12 years my senior.

The baby would've killed her before it was even fully developed.

I'm torn, but I'm glad my sister is alive. When I see her, I don't call her a murderer, but instead give her a big hug.

I didn't downvote or upvote anything, rarely do, but I'm a parent who thinks there should be an avenue for abortion.

Obviously, her life would be in jeopardy if the baby came

to term. Her dwarfed size vs. the baby's need for developmental space could prove fatal for one, or even both of them. I believe that Dr. Paul would counsel to take the consideration of a preemie's survival vs other risks into account, and act accordingly.

"The avenue" you speak of was standard practice before Roe vs Wade, and it will always be; when the life of the mother; as likely here with your sister; was indeed threatened by the course of nature left without medical intervention.

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

I hear you sister!

I can't vote in good conscious for any of these no talent ass clowns. So I say don't vote it just encourages the creepers.

This needed to be said

I think this is should be a no brainer for the liberty movement and I'm surprised it is so unpopular here of all places, where Liberty is supposedly king. Thank you for bringing this up Joe.

Folks, regardless of whether you believe in a God, human souls, anything metaphysical, or not science tells us that life begins at conception. If nothing external is done to inhibit the "organism" it will develop into a human adult. I won't pretend to be a scientist because I'm not, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that something that grows and improves is alive.

With that in mind, we should consider the Vth Ammendment in the Bill of Rights. It's a little clause, but it speaks volumes: "nor (shall any person) be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;". How can we, as a liberty loving people who fight to protect individual liberties, deny the smallest and weakest among us the right to live?

Another point is the indictation of risk in our liberty philosophy. As you mentioned Joe, when women have sex they are aware of the possibility of becoming pregnant. They are taking that risk and should, as adults, take responsibility for their own actions. We in the liberty movement preach the idea of taking responsibility for the decisions we make. This is no different. They should put the child up for adoption if they don't want it/can't afford it. It was their mistake, not the baby's.

"There is only one kind of freedom and that's individual liberty. Our lives come from our creator and our liberty comes from our creator. It has nothing to do with government granting it." -Ron Paul

The biggest problem with your argument

is that you assume that the fetus is human at all stages. Can you be human without a functioning brain? Shouldn't we strive to define "sentience"? And no, science doesn't tell us that life begins at conception. It tells us that a zygote begins at conception. And then its a blastocyst, then embryo and then fetus. Fetus's only have about a %50 change of surviving birth at around 35 weeks. The brain doesn't start real development until nearly 25 weeks into gestation.
Its funny but my girlfriend says that if men got pregnant abortions would not only be legal everywhere but completely safe. She also believes that birth control would be much more universally available.
Its an important lesson to learn that where you sit is where you stand.

Sentience is a very poor

Sentience is a very poor indicator of personhood.

Elephants, The Pinnipeds, the Great Apes, Canindia, Ravens, Delphinidae, these groups of animals are all orders of magnitude more sentient than a human toddler let alone an infant.

What your girlfriend says is true, it doesn't justify anything though. Men are more violent then women period. Just look at the murder rate for men vs. women.

Us the fetus made of human

Is the fetus made of human DNA? Question answered right there.

How is it not human?

What cell in it's innocent body is not human DNA?

So should cutting one's hair

So should cutting one's hair also be ban?

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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

Growing hair is banned in many places

Besides military, Disneyland is among corporations that continue to have dress codes that include hair.

The issue of abortion is about age discrimination. The fetus has hair cells however underdeveloped and instead of being conceived in the safest place in the world, it becomes an unwelcomed pest, inhuman, and that is what makes it immoral.

Will That Hair Ever Develop Into A Human?

Your logic fails.

"Liberty's too precious a thing to be buried in books...Men should hold it up in front of them every single day of their lives and say: 'I'm free to think and to speak. My ancestors couldn't. I can. And my children will."

-Jimmy Stewart