2 votes

Are you fighting for something or are you fighting against what others are fighting for?

I guess most here would agree that the liberty movement should be about freedom for everybody to do what they want as long as they don't harm others (broadly put).

Then why are so many fighting other people's ideas?

If I don't like someone else's idea, why fight it? Why not stay quiet and let them get on with it? If I am right and they don't succeed then so what? But what if they do succeed because they knew something I didn't know or they make something happen that I didn't expect?

Is Ron Paul not an example of what is possible if you go with what you believe in for long enough and have enough passion to see it through?

Why not vote up, bump and comment what you like and let the rest be? Isn't that the best way of being a liberty activist not just in words but also in action?

"Whenever I hear, "It can't be done," I know I'm close to success." --Michael Flatley:

"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it." --George Bernard Shaw

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For the moment..it's about

Freeing our people and this nation from the chains of fascism. That seems to draw a very diverse crowd. Liberty evokes passion and freewill to express opinions that enlighten us even when our beliefs are disavowed. It's a REAL education vs Propaganda. The true meaning of a learning experience and the only way a patriot is created.


If our movement doesn't want to become co-opted (think Tea-Party), then we need a place to VET. In a forum where people and ideas are VETTED it is necessary to criticize. We are in for a world of hurt if we decide that it is no longer necessary to use our brain because all ideas will succeed if we BELIEVE for long enough...and I am a believer. I believe in divine intervention and I believe in this movement, but I don't believe that a quote from Michael Flatley will help a stupid idea succeed, and I don't believe that you should start a thread criticizing people who dare to express opinions. If you disagree, give your reasons, but don't criticize them for criticizing.

+ 1

Terrific post!

I could add a few Bob Marley quotes to your post.
Peace brother!

LL on Twitter: http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
sometimes LL can suck & sometimes LL rocks!
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

My personal view

I believe lars has a valid point to make. in fact I think it could be expressed in even stronger terms in some cases.
So, what specifically is he referring to?
When you look at some of the posts here, we see remarks such as:

"Lars wants to create a new reality where RP does run LP"
"Lars' vision of the reality he wants to create"
"Lars is referring to people's opposition to wasting time trying to draft RP to run on the LP ticket"

So, it looks like someone has decided specifically what Lars is directing his comments towards. even though he has not mentioned anything about the subject.
So lets 'assume' that this persons 'insight' is correct, and explore some specifics.
The effort by a number of determined individuals, in the interest of promoting the RP Intellectual Revolution and cause of Liberty, have seized upon, in the absence of any other strategies, other than long term prospects, the concept of bringing together the RP grass-roots movement and the GJ Liberty campaign. To make a concerted attempt to resolve any differences, form an alliance between the two movements, and get RP on the Liberty ticket in all 50 states, as a candidate, VP or whatever can be achieved.

Why?.. because of the similarities in the party platform; because it will mean continuing the fight against the two party monopoly; because a greater majority of Liberty party campaigners are RP supporters; because it will attract more votes and support; because it will scare the hell out of the RNC/Dem, both of which are shedding honest voters at an un-precedented rate; and because this avenue has been raised by many other RP'ers.

A creditable idea..you would think so, but then this hand-full of people seem to think not. To the extent of expressing their dis-pleasure in numerous crude and totally unnecessary ways, such as personal attacks on the very people involved in the strategy.
"Blatant fabrication" "totally delusional" "lying" "it will never happen" "RP will never do it" to mention but a few comments.

Maybe these people have a crystal ball that provides all the answers, maybe they have this line of communication with the TPTB that we mere RP'ers don't possess, who knows. Then there's the psycoanalysing of RP himself, where we are told precisely how he thinks and what he will do, I only wish we all had that ability, I'd be a much wiser man than I am now..wouldn't we all.

I would expect the best approach to know if this would be something RP would consider, would be to do your homework, and then simply ask him.
I personally don't rule out a 3rd party run based on his previous statements as an indicator, after all, he has said he never deals in absolutes. He also made the statement when asked if he would drop out of the campaign, "I will stay in as long as my supporters want me to".
Also as recently as the Leno show last night " no, not much" doesn't sound like any complete rejection.

So lets see, after some 16,465 (delusional?) people have signed a petition asking RP to consider this proposition, and many good people have done so much hard work to make this something of a possibility, do I personally consider it a waste of time and am I delusional if I don't..no. certainly preferable to sitting around downing other peoples tactical suggestions on DP.
Does Lars think it's delusional?..I doubt it.
But then again, just maybe Lars was refering to something completely different...

Ron Paul 2012.

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

Any opinion that is different from someone else's opinion

is an opposing opinion. You yourself are opposing others opinions in your post above. So it is inevitable that if we disagree and wish to express our opinions that we will oppose each other. So it isn't a matter of whether we should disagree or not, but how to judge the disagreement. I prefer the tools of rationality, logic and reasoning and these all point to a.) accepting that Ron Paul's run for President is over and b.) finding a way to turn the momentum and popularity for liberty that his campaign has generated into an effective strategy.
You interfere with both of those things.

For me, the most logical course and the one with the best chance of working is for all of us to support the Libertarian candidates and vote for Gary Johnson. I am open to other ideas, but quixotic quests to get RP to run third party against his own stated desires is not one of them. I will not support the GOP or the Democrat Party.

Free and Brave
or Cradle to Grave
You can't have both

The reality is that none of the things we are going to do

will win it for us but ALL the things each one of us do will.

The only thing that will ensure defeat is if we fight each other for what others want to do.

I applaud you for your support for GJ. It is one of the many things we can do including not supporting him and working within the GOP. Both are worth doing and the people doing it rather than just talking about it are all making a difference.

This is what objectivism has devolved into in 2012?


I will NOT fight for your right to kill yourself.
I will NOT fight for your belief in a flat earth.
I will NOT fight for your belief that kids should learn to murder people.

So, there you have it not every idea is as good as every other idea.

Some are BETTER than others. Just because you have an opinion, does not make it valid or valuable.

Your opinion that 1+1=3 is very INVALID and UNVALUABLE, for example.
Your opinion that you can live without breathing is the same.

A VALUABLE, VALID opinion is one that is borne out by the facts and evidence.

An opinion based on delusional fantasy, or one based on lies, or one that is destructive to the life, liberty or property of others is a very INVALID, UNVALUABLE opinion and should NOT be fought for.

I cannot believe that someone who calls themselves libertarian.

Voted this reply down. It's a sorry state of affairs when a libertarian votes down objectivism.

And you wonder why we can't reach the voters? Look in the mirror.

Cyril's picture

I'm not fighting against people, really

I'm not fighting against people, really, neither here or at our enemies'.

I'm fighting against ideas with other ideas.

Liberty fighting against Inhumane Planning.

Peace fighting against Unjustifiable Killings.

Justice fighting against Disguised Enslavement.

I'm fighting for us to put an end to this, eventually.

For Liberty.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.


"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

I appreciate your reply.

Unfortunately, Lars is referring to people's opposition to wasting time trying to draft RP to run on the LP ticket, which RP has stated he has no intention of doing.


But Lars wants to create a new reality where RP does run LP, regardless of what RP actually WANTS or the fact that RP said he has no intention of doing so.

And anyone who replies to Lars' vision of the reality he wants to create who is not supportive, is a "troll" or a "cynic" who hates liberty.

Here's one such response http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2720797

Cyril's picture

I appreciate your correcting

I appreciate your correcting me.

Then, I'd say, shouldn't we UNITE instead and nitpick less ?

We'd become strong enough, sooner, to restore Liberty that we know is THE KEY to the goal I alluded to.

Wouldn't we ?

Yes, it's a bitter tone. But I don't mean to offend.

It's just I'm tired when I see all this.


"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.


"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Thank you

it is all about the peaceful revolution not least towards our fellow freedom lovers.

I'm in total agreement...

...unless they are deliberately misleading people, which you have done on several threads tonight.