32 votes

Rational discussion about what to do for the 2012 race for POTUS

Most regular users of the Daily P.Au.L are aware that I openly support Gary Johnson. That is beside the point with respect to this post. My intentions here are only to encourage rational consideration of the available options left for Paulites in the general election and to attempt to spark a healthy discussion with no name-calling or other actions stemming from anger, disappointment, spite, etc. I hope you will set the emotional nature of the current times aside and genuinely consider what I have to say.

Option 1 - Vote for Obama:

Pros:

- Delivering the election to Obama is a method of punishing Romney
- Romney may be considered unelectable in 2016 given that Obama is much weaker than he was in 2008 and Romney may likely do worse than McCain did

Cons:

- Our troops remain in Afghanistan until 2014 (at least - whatever happened to the recent 2024 extension? Is 2014 election year fodder?)
- We may end up engaged in more needless militarism in Iran, Syria, etc, putting tens of thousands of American lives at stake
- Indefinite detention clauses in the current NDAA will remain
- The UN Small Arms Treaty will likely be signed
- Draconian censorship laws will likely be levied against internet freedom
- Whistle blowers will continue to be treated like sub-human criminals
- The government will continue to grow at an alarming pace
- We will likely get stimulated again with the current economic outlook
- The War on Drugs will continue even in states that have put in place legalization/decriminalization laws
- The healthcare mandate will endure
- There will be no audit of the Fed
- Foreign aid will remain untouched or maybe even increased
- The Welfare State will likely continue to expand

Option 2 - Vote for Romney:

Pros:

- Slight possibility that Romney would listen to Austrian solutions in another economic crisis (I doubt it though)

Cons:

- Romney will be rewarded for his underhanded tactics used to attain the nomination
- Our troops remain in Afghanistan until 2014 - at least
- We may end up engaged in more needless militarism in Iran, Syria, etc putting tens of thousands of American lives at stake
- Indefinite detention clauses in the current NDAA will remain
- Draconian censorship laws will likely be levied against internet freedom
- Whistle blowers will continue to be treated like sub-human criminals
- The government will continue to grow at an alarming pace
- We will likely get stimulated again with the current economic outlook
- The War on Drugs will continue even in states that have put in place legalization/decriminalization laws (likely at a more aggressive pace than Obama. Romney equated drug use to murder in a speech aired on HLN earlier in the year)
- The healthcare mandate will endure
- There will be no audit of the Fed (I don't trust Romney's sincerity)
- Foreign aid will remain untouched or maybe even increased
- The Welfare State will likely continue to expand (Medicare promises)

Option 3 - Write-in Ron Paul:

Pros:

- You get to vote for one of your heroes

Cons:

- No one outside of your personal contacts will know you did so
- A write-in campaign has no chance at successfully electing Dr. Paul

Option 4 - Vote for Johnson:

Pros whether he wins or loses:

- The votes will be counted (to some varying degree depending on the state - I doubt there would be 100% vote flipping) which would send a clear message to the GOP that the Liberty Movement won't just fall in line based on political rhetoric and/or coercion
- 5% of the vote puts the LP in major party status for 2016 which would likely help to solve problems with gaining participation in the debates
- Johnson will not be the last LP POTUS nominee. Others after him may be more universally acceptable to the Liberty Movement, and major party status would give those potential candidates much firmer footing
- It will piss off both the Democrats and the Republicans (Johnson affects the duopoly candidates differently depending on the state in question)

Pros for the outside chance he wins:

- Afghanistan will immediately be drawn down
- Avoid war with Iran, Syria, etc, potentially saving tens of thousands American lives
- A budget with $1.4 trillion in cuts - enough to balance year one (more than the $1T proposed by Paul) - will be submitted to Congress which would likely lead to real cuts (not just baseline cuts)
- In the event of a financial crisis, no economic intervention will be employed thereby creating an environment for real recovery
- If Audit the Fed hits his desk, it will get signed
- The Drug War will end
- If the legislation passes, the 16th Amendment will be repealed, the IRS abolished, and a consumption tax implemented which would eliminate all federal payroll withholding (saving entrepreneurs a fortune), eliminate taxes on all used goods (clothes, cars, etc), and distribute the federal tax burden over everyone that interacts with our economy (illegal aliens, tourists, other visitors) not just the employed citizens.
- Religious influences will no longer be employed to provide collectivist, government benefits to straight couples while punishing the gay and lesbian community. Separation of Church and State should not have exceptions, and the only argument that exists is based in religion.
- Although Johnson is pro-choice up to independent viability of the fetus, he takes the same policy approach as Ron Paul in saying it should be left to the states, thereby negating the importance of his personal opinions on the issue

Cons:

- If the legislation passes, some are concerned that the Fair Tax would create a new entitlement system due to the prebate that would be distributed to all US citizens. However, I would argue that collectivism is avoided because all citizens will receive it, and the prebate only represents the amount of tax that would be paid based on poverty level income (~$2000/yr) which is not nearly enough to survive on and provides a logical solution to the regressive nature of other consumption taxes
- Johnson said he may be willing to militarily intervene for humanitarian reasons in other countries; however, he said he would only do so with approval from Congress (giving respect to the process provided by the Constitution)

----------------------------------------------

Did I leave anything out? Please discuss.

One last note: To illustrate the unreliability of emotion based decision making, please consider the following questions -

What percentage of people in prison (barring victimless crimes) are there because they acted out of emotion? I would venture to say greater than 90%.

What percentage of people in prison (barring victimless crimes) are there because they made rational decisions? Very few.

Did your parents ever tell you to "think before you act?" If so, why did they tell you that? Was it because making emotional decisions out of anger or other emotions can often get you into trouble?

Is the purpose of the Liberty Movement to gain liberty? If not, what is the goal? Given the above information, what is the most productive choice for Liberty with respect to the 2012 race for POTUS on a rational basis, neglecting emotion?

The factors stated above are what led me to where I stand now.

Thanks ahead of time for your genuine consideration and responses.




Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

I doubt

I doubt that votes for Gary Johnson will even be counted in many states. Only when the GOP sees it's base eroding in solid Red States will they reconsider their destructive policies. Really, for us to build the coalition we want Romney will have to be soundly thrashed.

Pros and cons

Voting for Johnson or RP will make you feel good
Noone will know OR care

It's hard not to call names when folks cant learn from what happened 10 minutes ago.

Ron Paul officially ran for Pres. and was recognized by the MSM as running for pres. - the media also blacked it out

If a large number wrote in RP or voted GJ what would happen??

What do ya think goofball??
NOTHING. You dont think they'll fail to report that when hes not even on a ballot??

voting obama doesn't "punish romney"!!!!
It tells the gop, we wont be controlled AND if enough of us do this, romney loses. THEN they'll realize, oh wow!! we DO need them on our side.

dont let the gop talk you into thinking that obama doenst need your vote to win. obama will lose unless we vote for him. they know this. they want you voting romney or 3rd party. They'll say anything to keep you from voting for obama cause they know if most of us do romney is done for.

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

I don't know goofball... Maybe we can discuss it if you'll...

be respectful of other people.

ok, sorry . .

so, you think I'm a goofball for thinking what Im thinking?
what do ya think?

I do believe enough folks in this country hate obushma enough that romney pretty much has it locked.
I think there are some gop folks on HERE trying to get the DPers to vote GJ or write in RP also by acting like voting for GJ or RP is the only "right" thing to do.

What some of the DPers dont realize, is we're in an all out war WITHIN the gop. The gop doesnt think they need us and they certainly dont want us around. Also, on bullies
a bully understands one thing - when their blood is dripping on the concrete playground from their nose, they stop bullying the one they were bullying. Now for the name calling.
If you dont think the gop is a bully, bullying us, your VERY naive!!

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

bump

good posts deserve bumps.

LL on Twitter: http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
sometimes LL can suck & sometimes LL rocks!
http://www.dailypaul.com/203008/south-carolina-battle-of-cow...
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

The Problem With Gary Johnson:

Is that he might continue running. His record and statements are not acceptable and will only divide us in the future if he continues to run as president in future elections. He needs to run for senate.

I support both voting for GJ and writing in RP this election as a protest vote. That is all it is. Neither will win and it is stupid that the liberty movement would keep arguing over what form of protest to use. That is up to the individual.

No Need to Compromise - Punish the RINOs and Write In Ron

Thanks to DWalters for starting this discussion. RINO's (Republicans in Name Only) - the NeoCONned "Conservative"/"Republican" wing of the ONE Establishment Party MUST be punished, but voting for Obomber and the NeoLIBeraled "Democrat" wing is surely not the way to do it. Is it? Maybe a better idea is to take back our blood. Remember all the "new blood" that Ron Paul brought into the "Republican" party - some of us all the way back to 2007 Ames Straw Poll. LET'S DRAIN THAT BACK OUT! On Tuesday 9/11/12, the 11th Anniversary of The Deception That Changed the World, let's all RE-REGISTER! This revenge will be the "dish best served cold," when we collectively make the Stomp Heard 'Round the World - as we march out of voter registration offices as Independents, Libertarians, Constitution, Green or even (OMG!) "Democrats." ANYTHING but "Republicans!" The IX XI Exodus plan is HERE: http://dumpdumbo.blog.com/

The justification for doing so is HERE:
http://dumpdumbo.blog.com/down-by-rinos/

And a preliminary view of what we do after we Re-Register is HERE:
http://dumpdumbo.blog.com/then-what/

Because that same Establishment (not a plutocracy or corporatocracy, but a CRIMOCRACY - Rule by Criminals) that own both parties and ALL of the media, also owns and controls the voting machines and reporting, IT IS A HUGE BLESSING THAT RON PAUL WILL

    NOT
      BE ON ANY BALLOTS

This gives US - the R3volution - OUR BEST SHOT at peacefully "Restoring America." Dr. K (Dr. Oregano), Jim Condit and many others are making plans for the most massive election day demonstration of Grass Roots power - possibly in the history of the Republic. There are many States that have no requirements for write ins, and the ones that do simply require a letter of intent or similar statement by Ron Paul, have deadlines well into NEXT month.

The sheer beauty of this is that IF WE MAKE them (election officials in each county and State)- they HAVE to count the votes, AND they will have to do it BY HAND! This single act of DEFIANCE will show the Establishment in general and the "Republican" wing of its ONE party, particularly, that the Gadsden Flag is for real - Don't Tread On Me!

Edward True in Iowa demonstrated the power of a single one of us in the Iowa Republican Caucus with a simple affidavit of the voting results in his precinct - and made the RINO Establishment in Iowa BACK DOWN and admit they had added 27 votes for Romney! Several of us are hot on the trail of the Iowa Republican Caucus FRAUD where Ron Paul - and more importantly - WE were robbed of the momentum of winning the "First in the Nation" caucus. (See: http://one3twelve.blog.com/black-box-blender/ )

So Write in Ron will save US and the world from the horrors of WW3 that EITHER Establishment candidate (Willard/Obomber) will bring upon us, and we won't need to compromise. The formula is very simple - 2 steps:
1. Write in Ron
2. Prove it!

Soon after the IX XI Exodus next Tuesday, we will announce the details of how We - "The Future of America" - [Not the lame*ss "future of the 'Republican' party" (puke, gag)] can smash the Establishment - beat it with its own stick - by turning their crooked "voting" machines against them by Writing in Ron Paul for President! We will simultaneously expose THEIR fraudulent (S)election racket and we will WIN the R3volution PEACEFULLY - with ballots and not bullets.

WE CAN DO THIS!

I have met Ron Paul and looked in his eyes and seen the Light around him. He is a decent man of impeccable integrity and IF WE DRAFT HIM, HE WILL SERVE! Plato told us this long ago, that we (the People) would have to draft good leaders and to beware of anyone who wants the job - especially bad enough to lie, cheat, steal and even murder for it. Sic Semper Tyranus, baby! Thus EVER to TYRANTS! It's time to clean house and take back OUR Country. But first, let's Stick it to the RINO's with Exodus IX XI - Re-Register as ANYTHING but "Republican" next Tuesday, 9/11, and we'll collectively notice the Establishment, IT'S ON!

Check this page on 9/12 for more info on Write in Ron.
Liberty, Peace, Prosperity and Love
Jim
http://dumpdumbo.blog.com/then-what/

सत्यं एव जायते
Satyam Eva Jayate!
Truth Alone Triumphs!

As I've said in other threads....

If Johnson is on the ballot and Paul is not, I will vote for Johnson. If neither is on the ballot I will write in Ron Paul...

Considering from all functional aspects, Johnson's positions are the same, and it is more likely someone actually on the ballot will get votes which are counted... I'd like to hear a logical explanation as to why my plan does not make the most sense for making our voices heard.

Why is the obvious not asked?

I've seen two threads about 'how could Johnson win your vote' - I started them both - and I don't intend to vote for the guy.

(on the DP: What could Gary Johnson do to get your vote? and Instead of pushing us to support GJ - Can't we push GJ to support us?)

Why are we not working to push Gary to be a candidate that more of us can support? There is no talk about using our voting muscle to move Gary more into our camp.

Why is that not a topic for discussion?

This is a point worth

This is a point worth elaborating. What, exactly, would Ron Paul supporters ask of Gary Johnson to win their support? Then, who answers for Gary Johnson? Would he seriously court the Ron Paul vote? The conversation has to include some official spokesperson for Gary Johnson or this conversation is a waste of time.

Oyez

I think it is a perfectly reasonable suggestion

First - Gary is having some online town-hall today 9/9 to SPECIFICALLY COURT OUR VOTE.

I'm confounded by the negative votes really... I think it is a perfectly reasonable suggestion.

I'm also confounded by the response I get from the Gary Johnson people - no support for the concept - just 'Gary Johnson 2012!' - I don't know why they aren't proposing this... makes me suspicious :)

So many people are suggesting that Ron Paul gave a tacit endorsement of Gary on the Tonight Show. I don't think he did. But, might Ron have suggested we take a look at Gary so that we discover where the differences are and do something about it?

I'm tired of people telling me I should vote for Gary Johnson - they never suggest that my issues with Gary might be addressed by Gary - or that we might be able to change Gary's position.

Isn't that part of the dictate? To spread Liberty through education?

And my question is...

Functionally, how is he any different from Paul besides the one thing I've already mentioned to you?

Functionally he is exactly the same on abortion (leave it up to the states, 10th etc)... same goes for the wars...

The only difference might be what I mentioned re: the fed, but really.. functionally... almost exactly the same in the short term.

Honestly - I have to read up more on his positions

I've spent a bit of time watching some of his interviews and debate responses. His abortion position doesn't bother me too much - in the sense that the most he will do on the subject would be to allow the repeal Roe vs. Wade, which is a goal of Ron's.

I think he is more likely to try government solutions - he made a comment or two to that affect (i have to find them again).

He is very reasonable in general and even where I might disagree with him, he isn't that far from my views (interventionism - he would intervene in one case on Congress's orders because he truly believes there is genocide occurring - and this isn't ideal... but he isn't invading Iran or Syria).

I'd like to see him say he would bring all the troops home.

He wants to keep bases in Afghanistan... keeping drone strikes on the table (yes - he admits they are problematic - but would keep them available).

So - like I said, I have to dig deeper. Some of my opinions are based on others writings - I'll have to come to my own conclusions (that is to say, I know how truths can be distorted - I'm skeptical of _everything_).

We'll see.

The only reason I'm leaning toward Romney

Though I despise the tactics at the RNC, I believe Romney is the only candidate who 1) stands a chance of beating Obama AND 2) might support the bills put forth by our defenders of liberty in Congress. Obama will offer no support to our guys, and Johnson will not defeat Obama. I want Rand Paul's bills signed, and Romney would at least consider them.

I expected some thumbs down, but

Help me see what is wrong with this logic. What am I missing?

If Romney loses, we become the scapegoat for the Republican Party and our fellow Republicans will have closed ears to us when we talk about libertarian principles. In their minds, it will be the Libertarians that cost the election. When the economy crashes under Obama, they will not learn any lessons because we are to blame (in their minds).

If Obama loses, (i.e., we help Romney win) then many of our Republican friends and neighbors will be more open to hear what Libertarians have to say. Our liberty-minded Congressmen will have a better chance of pushing through legislation than they would have with Obama. Do you believe Romney will be as trigger happy as Obama in sidestepping Congress with executive orders?

How likely is Johnson going to beat both Obama and Romney, especially since very few outside of our circle have heard of him? Will the electors even vote for him? I haven't made up my mind about him yet.

Sure wish I could vote for Ron Paul. That was an easy decision!

After seeing the Romney forces

in action this year at the state and national conventions, how can you perceive him as anything but a rabid totalitarian? The fact is we simply don't know who would do more evil in office, Romney or Obama, only that the damage done by either would be extreme. Which is why we should be "non-interventionists" and let God decide who lives and who dies (politically). Keep our hands clean and vote for neither. That way we can avoid doing any evil ourselves.

I see your point.

I was going to write in Ron Paul just to spite the status quo. But my brother raised a good point that gave me pause to reconsider Romney. He knows three business owners who are holding off on hiring till the election. They said that if Romney wins, they will hire; if Obama wins, they will have to downsize. In this regard, a Romney win will do good to help people find jobs and buy time. Pinning the economy to emotions is just plain stupid, but that's how it works now and will continue to do so until the Fed is gone. If Romney fails to deliver for these business owners, then the fall will be a hard one for Romney and the RNC.

Even with Johnson, I'm not convinced I'd "avoid doing any evil".

Praying for wisdom...as if my vote will actually count.

President of what?

Do we need rulers to tell us what to do? We need skills, community cooperation, and local liberty candidates. I think voting tends to free us from thought and responsibility. Learning to live, eat, drink, bathe, etc. without the grid and FRN's is difficult but necessary. In my opinion it is the most important thing to do.

This sounds a lot like my

This sounds a lot like my post on organizing that I just posted.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Six Options for Voting On Election Day 2012

There are six options for voting on election day in 2012. The sixth option is to not vote in the Presidential race, but choose real liberty candidates in down ticket races. Moreover, all this back and forth on the internet or social networking does not help elect liberty candidates.

Presently, likely voters nationwide realize that Mitt Romney is second coming of most of the bad policies of the George Walker Bush Administration. Now, I have read all the pros and cons, so I will not rehash those points. Finally, a vote for Barrack Obama is a vote for failed policies. Rewarding those policies will embolden Obama in a lame duck second term. None of the 15-20 million in the liberty movement should even consider voting for Barrack Obama, Joe Biden or most Democrat candidates. Now, please reconsider punishing down ticket Republican candidates for the actions of the Republican National Committee. The sole candidate that should be held to account for the RNC's rule breaking is Mitt Romney.

No, they all play a part in the game

Unless you know they are a liberty candidate then you can pretty safely assume they are not. So why reward them and their political gamesmanship. Did they fight for us? Did they support Ron Paul?

Free and Brave
or Cradle to Grave
You can't have both

8

I do not want to have 8 years of Romney's flip-flopping. Voting for GJ will put up protest numbers that are counted, and will term limit Obama. Then in 2016 we have a chance with a liberty candidate in an open POTUS race. If Romney wins, there is no chance we will get a liberty candidate in 2016.

Good point about the down-ticket races. We should consider all candidates.

We hope it term limits Obama

In 2016, with the economy crashing and WWIII breaking out, Obama (or Romney) might have better things to do with their time than allow a pesky election to happen.

As previously discussed,

As previously discussed, Romney is the most dangerous candidate, ought to be punished for what he did in the primary (he ought to be in jail), and it allows a run in 2016 if Romney loses.

If Obama wins, we already know his scandals, which hopefully makes him less dangerous, a lame duck, impeachable. A lot of non Ron Paul people are going to be voting for conservatives and not Romney - if enough real conservatives get in - well, we've dealt with Obama for 4 years already and he'll have less power then.

Assuming this is true, doing any of the following aids the cause.
Vote for Goode.
Vote for Johnson.
Get either in the debates and make a ruckus trying to open up the political process.
Support third party ballot access for all third parties.
Get Ron Paul as a write in candidate in all states.
Petition the elector college before December for votes in the real election.

That is as I see it all we can do all the way to congress - which we can still petition if everything else fails.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Not sure how Virgil is an option...

Considering his party's platform sounds more fascist, minus the outright imperialism, than "constitutional".

Well, considering the

Well, considering the Libertarian party wants to purge Christians, that sounds more fascist to me.

Ron Paul endorsed the Constitution party last election cycle, and a pastor was running as the candidate.

I'm tired of hearing the slanders. The more slanders I hear like this, the more I will never support the Libertarian party - having been a member at one time. At least the Constitution party has a constitution and libertarian combined ticket this year.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Max

I was an LP member for 30 years. Although there were a few atheists of the obnoxious type who just couldn't stand Christians, most of my fellow LP members welcomed people of all faiths to join in their efforts to reduce government. There was no organized effort to purge Christians from the party, and there was certainly no endorsement of political positions which could be construed as persecuting Christians. I understand you may have been uncomfortable with a lot of LP members who had been strongly influenced by Ayn Rand. Many of her followers simply had no tolerance for Christians, non-smokers, disabled people, etc. But that Randite influence is dying, and you and I and other believers can change the whole religious mix in the LP. There are far more Christian libertarians than Randite ones. We just have to get the more moderate and tolerant libertarians who support Ron Paul to gain influence in the LP. Currently the LP is much smaller than the GOP. Which party do you think would be easier for us to influence?

I've never heard of this....

Although honestly I have as much respect for Christians who wish to push their religious beliefs on everyone through the force of the state as I do socialists who wish to push their own socialist morals on everyone.

If this is the case, re: the libertarian party... at least provide evidence it is true.

FYI - you left out Virgil

FYI - you left out Virgil Goode as an option, as well as the fact that constitutional conservatives in the GOP outnumber libertarians.

It's a fatal flaw, because as I see it, it is the only balance point where a good push could make a difference at this time. All other options have pretty much pre-determined outcomes.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.