32 votes

Rational discussion about what to do for the 2012 race for POTUS

Most regular users of the Daily P.Au.L are aware that I openly support Gary Johnson. That is beside the point with respect to this post. My intentions here are only to encourage rational consideration of the available options left for Paulites in the general election and to attempt to spark a healthy discussion with no name-calling or other actions stemming from anger, disappointment, spite, etc. I hope you will set the emotional nature of the current times aside and genuinely consider what I have to say.

Option 1 - Vote for Obama:

Pros:

- Delivering the election to Obama is a method of punishing Romney
- Romney may be considered unelectable in 2016 given that Obama is much weaker than he was in 2008 and Romney may likely do worse than McCain did

Cons:

- Our troops remain in Afghanistan until 2014 (at least - whatever happened to the recent 2024 extension? Is 2014 election year fodder?)
- We may end up engaged in more needless militarism in Iran, Syria, etc, putting tens of thousands of American lives at stake
- Indefinite detention clauses in the current NDAA will remain
- The UN Small Arms Treaty will likely be signed
- Draconian censorship laws will likely be levied against internet freedom
- Whistle blowers will continue to be treated like sub-human criminals
- The government will continue to grow at an alarming pace
- We will likely get stimulated again with the current economic outlook
- The War on Drugs will continue even in states that have put in place legalization/decriminalization laws
- The healthcare mandate will endure
- There will be no audit of the Fed
- Foreign aid will remain untouched or maybe even increased
- The Welfare State will likely continue to expand

Option 2 - Vote for Romney:

Pros:

- Slight possibility that Romney would listen to Austrian solutions in another economic crisis (I doubt it though)

Cons:

- Romney will be rewarded for his underhanded tactics used to attain the nomination
- Our troops remain in Afghanistan until 2014 - at least
- We may end up engaged in more needless militarism in Iran, Syria, etc putting tens of thousands of American lives at stake
- Indefinite detention clauses in the current NDAA will remain
- Draconian censorship laws will likely be levied against internet freedom
- Whistle blowers will continue to be treated like sub-human criminals
- The government will continue to grow at an alarming pace
- We will likely get stimulated again with the current economic outlook
- The War on Drugs will continue even in states that have put in place legalization/decriminalization laws (likely at a more aggressive pace than Obama. Romney equated drug use to murder in a speech aired on HLN earlier in the year)
- The healthcare mandate will endure
- There will be no audit of the Fed (I don't trust Romney's sincerity)
- Foreign aid will remain untouched or maybe even increased
- The Welfare State will likely continue to expand (Medicare promises)

Option 3 - Write-in Ron Paul:

Pros:

- You get to vote for one of your heroes

Cons:

- No one outside of your personal contacts will know you did so
- A write-in campaign has no chance at successfully electing Dr. Paul

Option 4 - Vote for Johnson:

Pros whether he wins or loses:

- The votes will be counted (to some varying degree depending on the state - I doubt there would be 100% vote flipping) which would send a clear message to the GOP that the Liberty Movement won't just fall in line based on political rhetoric and/or coercion
- 5% of the vote puts the LP in major party status for 2016 which would likely help to solve problems with gaining participation in the debates
- Johnson will not be the last LP POTUS nominee. Others after him may be more universally acceptable to the Liberty Movement, and major party status would give those potential candidates much firmer footing
- It will piss off both the Democrats and the Republicans (Johnson affects the duopoly candidates differently depending on the state in question)

Pros for the outside chance he wins:

- Afghanistan will immediately be drawn down
- Avoid war with Iran, Syria, etc, potentially saving tens of thousands American lives
- A budget with $1.4 trillion in cuts - enough to balance year one (more than the $1T proposed by Paul) - will be submitted to Congress which would likely lead to real cuts (not just baseline cuts)
- In the event of a financial crisis, no economic intervention will be employed thereby creating an environment for real recovery
- If Audit the Fed hits his desk, it will get signed
- The Drug War will end
- If the legislation passes, the 16th Amendment will be repealed, the IRS abolished, and a consumption tax implemented which would eliminate all federal payroll withholding (saving entrepreneurs a fortune), eliminate taxes on all used goods (clothes, cars, etc), and distribute the federal tax burden over everyone that interacts with our economy (illegal aliens, tourists, other visitors) not just the employed citizens.
- Religious influences will no longer be employed to provide collectivist, government benefits to straight couples while punishing the gay and lesbian community. Separation of Church and State should not have exceptions, and the only argument that exists is based in religion.
- Although Johnson is pro-choice up to independent viability of the fetus, he takes the same policy approach as Ron Paul in saying it should be left to the states, thereby negating the importance of his personal opinions on the issue

Cons:

- If the legislation passes, some are concerned that the Fair Tax would create a new entitlement system due to the prebate that would be distributed to all US citizens. However, I would argue that collectivism is avoided because all citizens will receive it, and the prebate only represents the amount of tax that would be paid based on poverty level income (~$2000/yr) which is not nearly enough to survive on and provides a logical solution to the regressive nature of other consumption taxes
- Johnson said he may be willing to militarily intervene for humanitarian reasons in other countries; however, he said he would only do so with approval from Congress (giving respect to the process provided by the Constitution)

----------------------------------------------

Did I leave anything out? Please discuss.

One last note: To illustrate the unreliability of emotion based decision making, please consider the following questions -

What percentage of people in prison (barring victimless crimes) are there because they acted out of emotion? I would venture to say greater than 90%.

What percentage of people in prison (barring victimless crimes) are there because they made rational decisions? Very few.

Did your parents ever tell you to "think before you act?" If so, why did they tell you that? Was it because making emotional decisions out of anger or other emotions can often get you into trouble?

Is the purpose of the Liberty Movement to gain liberty? If not, what is the goal? Given the above information, what is the most productive choice for Liberty with respect to the 2012 race for POTUS on a rational basis, neglecting emotion?

The factors stated above are what led me to where I stand now.

Thanks ahead of time for your genuine consideration and responses.




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Correct. The names will change but the tyranny will remain

.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

I wouldn't want Obamacare repealed without being replaced.

We need Obamacare REPLACED with a more free market-oriented healthcare system which is what Romney is advocating. Many of the plans Romney has for healthcare are things Ron Paul was wanting to implement if elected president, such as block granting Medicaid to the states and allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines. Plus, the Ryan plan as meager as it is could possibly be the only thing swallowable by the huge geezer lobby in this country. If it weren't for Medicare driving healthcare costs up so much, we wouldn't have a drive for nationalized healthcare in the first place.

repeal and get the feds out of this

This is a massive expansion of IRS powers to tax. Romeny never mentions removal of the IRS tax penalties. Get the feds out of this, and let each state do as they please.

You take heed to expedient rhetoric... I don't...

Jon Huntsman had it right - "Mitt Romney is like a perfectly lubricated weather vane."

Actions speak louder than words.

Here's Johnson's record as NM governor: http://www.dailypaul.com/249009/actions-speak-louder-than-words

Great post, but good luck on the Rational Discussion goal.

Most on here are driven to irrational extremist positions by their emotions. This thread inspired me to post http://www.dailypaul.com/253915/emotion-vs-logic
which promptly got buried. They're fighting you and ignoring me, so you're two steps ahead of me.

I've grown to hate this site over the past several months...

I've been a lurker for about 4+ years, but never signed up with an account until much more recently.

The past 3-6 months or so have proven to me this site is ruled by nothing but demagogues who rely on emotion, not reason to frame their arguments.

I've been a fan of this site

I've been a fan of this site for over a year for the sake of getting up to the date and even unreported news. After finally recently signing up though I became extremely disappointed in finding out that the self-proclaimed "truth-seekers" couldn't handle truths they didn't like as well... including truths about themselves.

Check this essay I wrote yesterday regarding the truth of why people choose write-ins over voting for Gary Johnson.

http://www.dailypaul.com/253833/conflicting-principles-sabot...

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

dinner time bump

Thanks again for posting this.

LL on Twitter: http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
sometimes LL can suck & sometimes LL rocks!
http://www.dailypaul.com/203008/south-carolina-battle-of-cow...
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

You forgot to mention that

You forgot to mention that Ron Paul HIMSELF said he would vote for the Fair Tax if it ever came up to vote in the house even though he's not a co-sponsor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI5lC4Z_T80

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

I doubt Ron Paul was endorsing a 23% consumption tax

Which seems totally unfair to me considering he was advocating a 0% tax rate. Opporational definition of words is important for real communication.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

23% is the rate that would be

23% is the rate that would be needed to take in the same ammount of taxes right now. The point is that it wouldn't be that high as long as we had small government.

Paul was advocating a 0% income tax, not a lack of taxes all together. When Paul was asked how he would counter the lack of taxes he said they could impose a "highway tax" and raise "gasoline tax", but came back to saying it wouldn't be needed if the spending was cut down.

They're both for 0% income tax and cutting government down so they don't have to raise other taxes as much if at all.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

It's not about the president, it's about local & state candidate

Thats where the real power is, local then state. Unless somthing drasticly changes in the next few weeks, the largest terrorist organization in the world will continue to elect the president.

What chance does GJ have of winning? Is he inspiring or influential? Will the fearful sheeple change their voting habits or political racism in the next few weeks? Would it hurt to vote for someone other than Romney or Obama in a way that the votes will be counted. I don't think so.

Our real power however is establishing a base of liberty minded candidates in the local and state positions who will stand for individule rights, sound money and just laws. Candidates who will help inspire citizens to ask questions wake up to tyrannical, political racism and corrupt office holders. Leaders who understand the power of nullifacation and citizens rights to just say no. Local leaders who will help awaken the people to their constitutional rights.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

I didn't know "local and

I didn't know "local and state" has anything to do with the main problems with our national economy and our foreign policy.

If these things aren't handled... the "local and state" power you would have would eventually mean nothing in comparison to what could come.

Don't discredit the presidential election so you don't have to make a choice.

You're avoiding choosing the moral high ground between two conflicting principles.

You want to promote liberty to its full potential, but doing so means not voting for who you want as president with your write-in that only you'll remember.

Which is more important... the full potential of the liberty movement or you voting for who you wanted to win even though they can't?

You can TELL YOURSELF you stuck with your principles either way... but which is the right one to go with when next to each other?

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

Wow you have been quite prolific during your 15 day membership

And your past 15 minutes. Clearly with pre written texts.

Anyhow true power comes from the bottom up, from the voice of the citizens . And not from the top down by government force. Citizens have the right and power to influence and control their counties and districts. Nullifacation is our most powerfully tool to overturn tyranny.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

Please explain how what you

Please explain how what you do on a local level is going to change our foreign policy and cut federal spending.

And also feel free to tell yourself you're the first person to use the fallacious point of how long I've been SIGNED UP on the site as a failed attempt to discredit me in some way when I've been coming to the DP for over a year... and sadly after signing up... have realized that the liberty movement is just as full of the willfully ignorant as any other party or movement is.

"Truth-seekers" who can't handle certain truths themselves... especially truths about them self.

This kind of ignorant comment from you that INTENTIONALLY totally misses my point is nothing new to me. You have trolls that know they're trying to troll, and then you have those that don't even realize they're acting like a troll... because that's just how they are. Fallacies, circular reasoning, close-minded. At least an intentional troll knows better and can stop when they choose to.

So please... tell me how your local government "nullification" is going to fix the problems at a federal level regarding the economy and foreign policy?

PLEASE... ignore that point a 2nd time... keep proving me right about people like you.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

Power comes from the bottom up while force come from the

top down. Power always overcomes force. Basic laws of nature and physics. The only reason the federal government has assembled su h force is because the people have relinquished their power, which must regained if liberty is to be restored. You can't overthrow 100 years of ignorance, and weak voting history in a single presidential election. Liberty is an individule decision not a forced mandate.

The only reason we have our current foreign policy and federal spending problems is because the majority of citizens have stood slilent and not excerized their rights to nullify anything. Currently some 25 states are standing up to the federal government about unconstitutional fedèal laws and thousand of citizens are learning about their rights to nullify their local laws and corrupt judges.

Your 15 day membership is only suspect in my eyes because of your prolific posts, comments, related messages members responce rating.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

Telling me the cause of the

Telling me the cause of the problem doesn't tell me the cure for our foreign policy and federal policies regarding the economy. Repeating "nullification" of local domestic issues doesn't do it either.

The solution is to attack it from both sides... the top and the bottom. If attacking the top means getting Johnson to show how similar Obamney is and how we don't need more of the problem causing status-quo... that will only help our effort on one front for both 2012 and 2016 in the GOP. Getting a libertarian nominated will be easier because of this flanking attack on both the top and bottom of the party.

People rate me down usually because they don't like hearing the truth. Sure, anyone can say that about the reason why they get rated down, but I invalidate the points the other person makes while they 99.999% of the time make a baseless claim without evidence.

People that agree with each other... whether through willful ignorance or not... are going to rate each other up and rate down their opposition whether or not their arguments are valid.

I make videos for a well known YouTube channel network and usually pick very debatable topics to talk about there. Regardless of the valid arguments I made, I still get plenty of hate and down-ratings.

People don't like to hear the truth if it's not what they want to hear... even the self-proclaimed truth seekers.

Examples of what I'm talking about with my videos. Check out the ratings. These videos got twice as many views as the average view total of a video on that channel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH4PRWtsXzQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fthPss57lyI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCOsSmLhuyE

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

I gave you a solution but your blind allegiance to your agenda

prevents you from seeing it or even considering the possabity. Revolution is a bottom up movement and not a top down facillation of change. Liberty lives and thrives in the heart of the individule. True leadership comes from the bottom up because people are willing to follow and support. Sheeple vote based on fear and will never vote for true leaders unroll they have a change of heart.

Your ego puts you at odds with 99.999% of your fellow man according to your own words. You clearly don't understand the distinction between power verses force, or power of nullifacation. The ability to influence is powerful but you appear to be lacking in that skill, IMHO.

I fail to see the relationship between your 3D gaming videos any of the conversations on this forum or as support for any of you ego driven arguments.

That said, GJ appears to be the only logical way to vote at this time in my state of Florida which dosent recognize write-in votes.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

1. Nullifying federal laws

1. Nullifying federal laws doesn't help our foreign policy and it doesn't end big spending.

2. As I explained right before the video links, was that I fully understood and you didn't understand that "ratings" don't mean anything when tackling highly debatable subjects that people will rate with their feelings towards what you have to say, whether it be valid or the truth or not, rather than through critical thinking. You judged based on people expressing how they CHOOSE to feel about what I say.

3. Ego has nothing to do with it. A person that agrees with my sound arguments and valid reasoning are going to see it as assertiveness while those that don't like what I have to say, whether it be the truth or not, will choose to not see it as the truth and call me arrogant instead. Pandering works as well as it does in this country for a reason... because people know that they gain influence if they tell people what they want to hear. Why would I want influence like that? Why would I cater to your shortcomings?

"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart

4. Feel free to quote that better "solution" of yours that I was so blind to.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

I rest my case. You just proved my points.

Your free to believe whatever you like. You might however want to take a look at the replays to your numberous comments from the many patriots on this page alone. But somehow I doubt it.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

You need to make a case, before you rest it...

1. I just asked you to quote your "solution". I don't think you could... because it's non-existent.

2. Saying "You just proved me right" and then using that as your reason to think you're right despite the fact that you neither explained how I was wrong or offered evidence contrary to my own... is a fallacy. A baseless claim that is good enough for you to believe, but under scrutiny... doesn't hold any weight whatsoever.

It would be the equivalent of me replying with just "Nuh uhhh... I didn't prove you right... You proved me right!" and expecting that to have made any kind of worthwhile or productive point.

That is how strong your claim/argument is.

3. Then implying that others that I already invalidated were making any valid points?

Feel free to come back when you learn to put a valid argument together and not just your "claim and no evidence" rhetoric that's somehow good enough for you to feel like you said anything at all.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

Talking to a closed mind is a waste of time and energy.

I have clearly wasted too much of both on you already.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

Anyone can tell themselves

Anyone can tell themselves they're talking to a closed-mind as a cop out.

I've explained the evidence behind every claim and counter-claim I've made... and you couldn't invalidate a single one.

The proof... whether you think it's a waste of time or not with your cop out... is that you can't invalidate a single thing I've said. If you could have... you would have at least tried.

The willfully ignorant calling others willfully ignorant. It's laughable and sad at the same time.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

If you have a problem with the strategy...

... take it up with Dr. Paul.... That is where it came from. Where are you coming from? The DailyJohnson?

You oversimplified his

You oversimplified his strategy.

He wants us to take over local parties for the sake of just doing good in the world with more influence. Including the EVENTUAL majority influence in promoting liberty candidates at all levels. But UNTIL the takeover is more than half complete... what can local government do about foreign policy and the economy on a federal level?

Nothing, unless we take over the executive or congressional branches.

It would be faster to get a libertarian elected in 2016 or in the mean time someone with many libertarian leaning policies in 2012.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

Well - don't convince me...

Call up Ron Paul and tell him he is wrong to not endorse Gary.

Thanks

I didn't say Ron Paul was

I didn't say Ron Paul was wrong.

I said AND explained how YOU were wrong in your understanding of the strategy overall.

But keep repeating yourself... because that makes you more right.

"Complain to Ron Paul"
"Tell Ron Paul he's wrong"

What's next?

So many willfully ignorant people on this site. It's sad and sickening at the same time.

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

You are a real piece of work dude

You aren't winning me over with your style.

Answer this simple question - Seeing that Ron Paul has endorsed candidates at all levels in the past and the recent past... why is he not endorsing Gary Johnson?

Be humble to the truth

Be humble to the truth regardless of its messenger. Choosing what truths you listen to because of the attitude of the other person shows your bias/flaws more than anyone elses'.

He's only endorsed 3 presidential candidates in the past and is clearly making it obvious that he doesn't want to come off as a king with millions of Ron Paul pawns he can give orders to like many other politicians rely on with their endorsements.

If he endorsed Gary Johnson and Gary Johnson lost... they would be able to pass the Ron Paul and liberty movement's off as failing flukes that would end when Ron Paul was out of the picture forever.

This is why he said "I think [Gary Johnson] is wonderful and doing a good job and people should look at him and make up their own minds" (paraphrased).

Gary Johnson doesn't even expect an endorsement because of the above reasoning.

He said he didn't trust Romney.
He said Obama was worse, but not by much.
And said that we should look at Gary Johnson with the enthusiasm that HE thinks he's wonderful and doing a good job.

Given the reason why Paul doesn't endorse anyone... do you really need it to be an official endorsement to act on his opinion of Gary Johnson?

You're not soldiers waiting on orders. Think for yourselves. He's expecting the liberty movement to be smart enough to take everything into consideration... but it seems the vast majority are relying on emotional thinking, willful ignorance, and nothing else.

Watch and listen to what Paul is saying in this video and then also think about how we can get the positive effects of a history making 3rd party run (whether GJ wins or not) that does well AND takeover the GOP at the same time?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b3y7BxFPJ4

Critical Thinking > Emotional Thinking > Pseudo-Intellectuals that Saturate DP
Utilitarianism > Consequentialism > Deontology > Egocentrism
Making people feel "troll'd" with the truth > being an intentional troll > acting like one naturally

Haha...

However you need to reason it out.

I looked into Gary - I made up my mind.