Rational discussion about what to do for the 2012 race for POTUS
Submitted by dwalters on Sat, 09/08/2012 - 12:25Most regular users of the Daily P.Au.L are aware that I openly support Gary Johnson. That is beside the point with respect to this post. My intentions here are only to encourage rational consideration of the available options left for Paulites in the general election and to attempt to spark a healthy discussion with no name-calling or other actions stemming from anger, disappointment, spite, etc. I hope you will set the emotional nature of the current times aside and genuinely consider what I have to say.
Option 1 - Vote for Obama:
Pros:
- Delivering the election to Obama is a method of punishing Romney
- Romney may be considered unelectable in 2016 given that Obama is much weaker than he was in 2008 and Romney may likely do worse than McCain did
Cons:
- Our troops remain in Afghanistan until 2014 (at least - whatever happened to the recent 2024 extension? Is 2014 election year fodder?)
- We may end up engaged in more needless militarism in Iran, Syria, etc, putting tens of thousands of American lives at stake
- Indefinite detention clauses in the current NDAA will remain
- The UN Small Arms Treaty will likely be signed
- Draconian censorship laws will likely be levied against internet freedom
- Whistle blowers will continue to be treated like sub-human criminals
- The government will continue to grow at an alarming pace
- We will likely get stimulated again with the current economic outlook
- The War on Drugs will continue even in states that have put in place legalization/decriminalization laws
- The healthcare mandate will endure
- There will be no audit of the Fed
- Foreign aid will remain untouched or maybe even increased
- The Welfare State will likely continue to expand
Option 2 - Vote for Romney:
Pros:
- Slight possibility that Romney would listen to Austrian solutions in another economic crisis (I doubt it though)
Cons:
- Romney will be rewarded for his underhanded tactics used to attain the nomination
- Our troops remain in Afghanistan until 2014 - at least
- We may end up engaged in more needless militarism in Iran, Syria, etc putting tens of thousands of American lives at stake
- Indefinite detention clauses in the current NDAA will remain
- Draconian censorship laws will likely be levied against internet freedom
- Whistle blowers will continue to be treated like sub-human criminals
- The government will continue to grow at an alarming pace
- We will likely get stimulated again with the current economic outlook
- The War on Drugs will continue even in states that have put in place legalization/decriminalization laws (likely at a more aggressive pace than Obama. Romney equated drug use to murder in a speech aired on HLN earlier in the year)
- The healthcare mandate will endure
- There will be no audit of the Fed (I don't trust Romney's sincerity)
- Foreign aid will remain untouched or maybe even increased
- The Welfare State will likely continue to expand (Medicare promises)
Option 3 - Write-in Ron Paul:
Pros:
- You get to vote for one of your heroes
Cons:
- No one outside of your personal contacts will know you did so
- A write-in campaign has no chance at successfully electing Dr. Paul
Option 4 - Vote for Johnson:
Pros whether he wins or loses:
- The votes will be counted (to some varying degree depending on the state - I doubt there would be 100% vote flipping) which would send a clear message to the GOP that the Liberty Movement won't just fall in line based on political rhetoric and/or coercion
- 5% of the vote puts the LP in major party status for 2016 which would likely help to solve problems with gaining participation in the debates
- Johnson will not be the last LP POTUS nominee. Others after him may be more universally acceptable to the Liberty Movement, and major party status would give those potential candidates much firmer footing
- It will piss off both the Democrats and the Republicans (Johnson affects the duopoly candidates differently depending on the state in question)
Pros for the outside chance he wins:
- Afghanistan will immediately be drawn down
- Avoid war with Iran, Syria, etc, potentially saving tens of thousands American lives
- A budget with $1.4 trillion in cuts - enough to balance year one (more than the $1T proposed by Paul) - will be submitted to Congress which would likely lead to real cuts (not just baseline cuts)
- In the event of a financial crisis, no economic intervention will be employed thereby creating an environment for real recovery
- If Audit the Fed hits his desk, it will get signed
- The Drug War will end
- If the legislation passes, the 16th Amendment will be repealed, the IRS abolished, and a consumption tax implemented which would eliminate all federal payroll withholding (saving entrepreneurs a fortune), eliminate taxes on all used goods (clothes, cars, etc), and distribute the federal tax burden over everyone that interacts with our economy (illegal aliens, tourists, other visitors) not just the employed citizens.
- Religious influences will no longer be employed to provide collectivist, government benefits to straight couples while punishing the gay and lesbian community. Separation of Church and State should not have exceptions, and the only argument that exists is based in religion.
- Although Johnson is pro-choice up to independent viability of the fetus, he takes the same policy approach as Ron Paul in saying it should be left to the states, thereby negating the importance of his personal opinions on the issue
Cons:
- If the legislation passes, some are concerned that the Fair Tax would create a new entitlement system due to the prebate that would be distributed to all US citizens. However, I would argue that collectivism is avoided because all citizens will receive it, and the prebate only represents the amount of tax that would be paid based on poverty level income (~$2000/yr) which is not nearly enough to survive on and provides a logical solution to the regressive nature of other consumption taxes
- Johnson said he may be willing to militarily intervene for humanitarian reasons in other countries; however, he said he would only do so with approval from Congress (giving respect to the process provided by the Constitution)
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Did I leave anything out? Please discuss.
One last note: To illustrate the unreliability of emotion based decision making, please consider the following questions -
What percentage of people in prison (barring victimless crimes) are there because they acted out of emotion? I would venture to say greater than 90%.
What percentage of people in prison (barring victimless crimes) are there because they made rational decisions? Very few.
Did your parents ever tell you to "think before you act?" If so, why did they tell you that? Was it because making emotional decisions out of anger or other emotions can often get you into trouble?
Is the purpose of the Liberty Movement to gain liberty? If not, what is the goal? Given the above information, what is the most productive choice for Liberty with respect to the 2012 race for POTUS on a rational basis, neglecting emotion?
The factors stated above are what led me to where I stand now.
Thanks ahead of time for your genuine consideration and responses.
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It's about achieving major party status for the LP...
if you think there is no chance at winning, then what do you have to lose. I guarantee that the Libertarian Party has a MUCH higher probability of putting forth liberty minded candidates than the Republican Party will ever let get the nomination. Gary Johnson will not be the last LP Presidential nominee.
All it takes is 5% of the vote in the general election to achieve this goal. I think that is something everyone could get behind.
What if Dr. Paul decided to run on the LP ticket in 2016? Would he have a chance with the name recognition he has now? I would venture to say that he would do MUCH better than Perot in 1992, and Perot got 20% of the popular vote.
I wish he were on the LP ticket
He would definitely draw more than Perot. That would also shake up the whole red state, blue state thing, as Ron has many fans in states that are normally democratic, while also pulling in the conservative vote from repub states. I also think he needs a platform where he can debate Obama and Romney. We've only seen him debate neocons who thought he was from another planet!
Agreed
The LP is just a big distraction. Barr, Johnson... etc. all attempts at creating a respectable brand. At the same time, the LP constantly undermines itself, making the brand close to worthless.
Barring a constitutional amendment of the election process, it will ALWAYS be a two party system. Luckily, each party is just a coalition of opposing factions, we just have to make our voice heard. This is much easier said than done, but since Liberty-minded individuals are usually not beholden to a major party, we just don't have roots / infrastructure within the parties to be heard... but this is quickly changing, and if we keep fighting on, we will have our day.
I've decided to write-in Paul. I feel like voting for Johnson will just give the LPers a false sense of hope that their plan will work and we will further misallocate our time and effort.
You need to add the new "War on Porn" for Romney.
He will start a new growth area for the central government.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz4Lvv-6OTU
http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/24/could-romney-really-ban-porn/
http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/18/romney-campaign-quietly-pr...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/19/mitt-romney-aide-pr...
I don't even particularly care about porn, but this one bothers me. If they can justify this kind of intrusion, it opens the door for all kinds of other micro-management of the Internet.
The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. - Heinlein
Romney I still cannot believe
Romney
I still cannot believe how terribly the GOP treated Dr Paul and his supporters. The Romney campaign was instigating the whole thing. I just cannot make myself warm up to Romney. I can't even listen to him speak. I don't care what he says he is gonna do, I think he will continue what Obama started. Its almost like they are forcing me to move to the Libertarian Party...
The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. - Heinlein
One of the very best posts ever.
Concise, logical, provocative...thanks!
If one thinks of elections as a battle of ideas then 3rd parties can, and do, win. A very good example is the NDP Party of Canada. They have never elected a Prime Minister nor ever held a majority in Parliment. But almost every idea/policy from their platform has become law at some point. The Libertarian Party could become the NDP here. The process would begin with this presidential election.
To my mind a vote (or a non-vote) for anyone but Johnson sets the rEVOLution back.
h-daddy
sorry this is not Canada
The two party system has been entrenched here for over 200 years. You GJ supporters are regressing to old tactics that didn't work. RP's plan to work within one of these parties has taken the movement farther than its ever been. Your vote for Johnson sets the revolution back. The dems and reps laugh at your LP vote.
They laughed at the convention
when they proved they could change the rules at will and with impunity. They didn't even bother to hide it. And they changed the rules so that the delegate strategy that was effective this year (or would have been, if there hadn't been so much cheating and ignoring of the rules) is a complete non-starter next time.
RP's plan is a plan for *himself*. Even Ron and his son Rand don't take the same approach (which is a shame in the case of Rand endorsing Romney and voting for the NDAA and so on).
Ron Paul said: "Do whatever you want. Do what you think is important. Everybody is an individual."
And lets look a little closer at your argument. A vote for Johnson sets the Revolution back? That is complete bullshit, and it's bullshit that gets thrown around here a lot. There is *nothing* about voting for Johnson (or writing in Ron Paul, or voting any other third party) that prevents you from doing *anything* you want outside the voting booth. Nobody can try to coerce you into voting against your will, and if they do try they're committing a felony. Nobody can know how you vote, if you don't choose to tell them, and if they do collect that information somehow they're committing a felony.
Ron Paul endorsed a third-party candidate in 2008! Explain that, if voting for a third party candidate is supposed to "set the revolution back" so much.
"You decide." -- Judge Napolitano http://youtu.be/D5J84fWqEK0
point taken
a third party vote is usually a person voting their conscience. I've done it, voting for the LP twice. In an ideal world a third, or fourth party would be welcomed. The shenanigans the GOP did pull show that the "infiltrate one of the existing party strategy" may prove ineffective. Hopefully a solution will spontaneously emerge from the minds of the liberty movement. That is if we don't destroy each other first!
My response was harsh
and your reply was very gracious. Thanks.
"You decide." -- Judge Napolitano http://youtu.be/D5J84fWqEK0
hey we're all liberty lovers
and we need a lively debate to show us the way forward. It's better to hear criticisms from our peers than from our political foes. We vet each others logic before we use it on them. Sometimes you gotta be harsh to get your point across. Believe me I've pissed off many people here. If you see bs call it bs, we're all the better for it.
voting by itself isn't the solution
Voting for President is a rigged game. We lose or we lose. They would love for us to be preoccupied with deciding who to vote for in November instead of concentrating on legit ways to bring about change.
I think that is a point that is often lost
It isn't about the Presidential election, that is just a way to focus attention. It is about returning liberty to this country and that goes beyond the political machinations of any party. Our future is first with the people and then returning the power to those people. In my opinion we need to make this as much a social movement as a political one. We need to interact and act with people based on our principles. Have events, get togethers, put our hands and backs where our mouths are and volunteer in the community AS RON PAULERS. This is where our future lies, not in the circus that is Presidential elections.
Free and Brave
or Cradle to Grave
You can't have both
Between Obamney and GJ
since they will be the only 3 on ALL 50 ballots, Im going with the closest representation to the Constitution and thats GJ. I wanted RP. Gj won me over being the last man in the race who stands for most of what RP stood for, and he also loves RP. He even predicted in January on fox what would happen in the rnc /gop nomination.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nate-Nathanael-Greene-Benson/2...
Tough one....
Lets see......Forward! with Obomb'ya, or "Believe in America" with the other crook Mitt. Or GJ, who might not be worth a crap and has about zero chance of winning.
LOL.....I'll try and vote for Ron Paul anyways, just write it in no matter what, won't check a box for obama or romney, no way, can't support criminals.
So what does that get you in
So what does that get you in the end? The one good thing that I can see coming out of this election would be putting the libertarian party on the map.... No Johnson has about as much of a chance as Ron Paul had at winning but, a shot at making a third party viable is a pretty good thing. just think if the GOP had a threat the outcome of that convention could have been much better for liberty. Just my 2 cent.
P.S. The Johnson supporters have worn me thin as well..... If they would have been wise they would have waited until after the convention.
Exactly
The main problem is that there is no viable alternative to the GOP at the moment. If there was a real and realistic alternative that stood for small government then the GOP would have to cater more to all those voters. As it is now they can be as big-government as the democrats without too much trouble because most people would vote for the lesser of two evils.
We need to have a real alternative to pull the GOP in the right direction.
The waking up manual: http://www.dailypaul.com/168937/the-waking-up-manual-how-to-...
A question if I may?
What would happen if for some reason, Mitt were not able to continue to run? Serious health reasons or something along that line?
Could that put Ron back in the picture?
Good post by the way!
" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~
Yes and no.... He was not
Yes and no.... He was not nominated. In other words he would be on the same ground as Rick and newt.... I had to wonder if this is part of the reason they worked so hard to keep Ron from getting his name in the hat..... Mitt would have to sleep with one eye open!
Yes but....
Ron was the last man standing so wouldn't that take president over Rick and Newt?
I'd rather see Mitt sleeping with both eyes open!
( I obviously don't know much about these things )
Thanks for your reply by the way
" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~
Nope... it doesn't count for
Nope... it doesn't count for anything... If he would have been nominated he would be next in line.
Much thanks
will keep praying!
" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~
Me too...
Me too...
gary jhonsons neocon foreign policy
http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/09/thedcs-jamie-weinstein-gar...
jhon
Why don't you tell us
Why don't you tell us something we don't know? Are you trying to say Johnson is more of a war monger than Romney or Obama? What is Johnson's stance on the NDAA? That concerns me more than this...
This is an easy decision for me.
I am not a Republican. I can not vote for Obama because he does not
represent anything that I dream of for my country. I can not vote for
Romney because of what he has done to undermine the grassroots. I live
in a state that does not allow me to write in Ron Paul. So... neither
party will lose out if I vote for ANY third party candidate that is on the ticket in my state. They never had my vote to count on anyway. I
don't want to leave it blank because I can not be sure that "diebold"
will not fill in the blank for me. So there you have it; anyone but
the status quo!
~Your perception becomes your reality~
You don't appear to
You don't appear to understand how the Diebold machines work... They don't fill in blanks (physically). They simply flip votes digitally ... No vote would be no vote to flip... If vote flipping is your greatest concern leave it blank...
So you wouldn't have voted for Ron Paul?
I say make them cheat. The more they cheat, the more likely they will be exposed for the frauds they are.
I guess you missed the news
I guess you missed the news reports last year... Ron Paul doesn't have a chance.... They get that info right from the Rothschild family... How could I vote for someone who isn't and was never going to be on a ballot?
Not to mention is you agree vote fraud is a problem why set around hashing on who to vote for... go in and punch Obama who cares it's going to be flipped anyway..
You should also include the
You should also include the pros and cons of Virgil Goode. He doesn't have a mathematical chance of winning, but for those in the Liberty movement who cannot support for Johnson may be able to vote for Goode, and to me that is still better than a vote for Romney or Obama.
liberty lover in Nor Cal!