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“A people who will not be ruled by God are destined to be ruled by tyrants.”

“A people who will not be ruled by God are destined to be ruled by tyrants.” William Penn.

Many of us who are 40+ rejoice that so much of the younger crowd are getting the message about the CFR, Federal Reserve, debt-money, North American Union, limited government, and the Constitution. Armed with this information you can change the world. However, I have noted with concern that there is a decided lack of moral foundation to sustain the liberty they are so eager to obtain. Many of the younger crowd frequenting this site and supporting the RP campaign have no higher ideals than the shallow notion of legalized marijuana and gambling. Worse, I have noted that many of them appear to be addicted to sensuality and sexual license: The name of Howard Stern – king of pornographic radio - appears way too often in posts on this site.

The founders of this country were almost to the man devout Christians who saw their struggle as a moral outflow of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Critical language in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution’s concepts of limited government and the division of powers were borrowed from Christian philosophers like John Locke. One of the great slogans of the Revolutionary war was “no king but Jesus.” George Washington said that religion and morality are the twin props of liberty. Almost all the advances civilization has made toward liberty began with the gospel. Rome, the most oppressive and brutal government the world has ever seen, was conquered by the gospel of Christ as brave men and women went to the arena for their faith, rather than renounce Christ. It is this sort of moral conviction that brings and sustains freedom; not Howard Stern and legalized pot. If we don’t have a deeper moral basis for our revolution than this, then perhaps its better that we fail, for the result will not be true liberty, but moral decay leading to tyranny. Indeed, it is the loss of true religion and morality that has brought us to this cross road in the first place.




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Whats morality

have to do with freedom? I drink,smoke and enjoy nudie bars. Why ? Because I have the human right to do so. Religion plays no part in human rights. Did I stumble onto Hucks site by accident?

Is God a reality in politics?

Let's ask Opus, he is my favorite un-poltically correct bird.

http://comics.com/wash/opus/index.html

You can learn a lot from a penguin.

Secular Morality Is Possible

I'm nice to people because it's the right thing to do, not because some eternally old man in the sky with a lot of hang-ups says so. So if believing in myths helps you not be an ass or a tyrant, good for you. I'm doing just fine on my own, thank you.

Ron Paul for President in 2008.

Church and State

Separate... as the Constitution sets forth. It makes a whole lot of sense. Countries are not ruled by God...they are ruled by people. We must have the right people ruling or it does not matter. Also, when I see idiots like Huckabee throwing God arrows at everyone, I just cringe!!! Would you ever feel comfortable having an evangelistic minister lead the US. Not me, and certainly one who talks about enemies seeing the gates of HELL!

Please

I read this post a few days ago and did not comment. I was offended. Who are any of you to say what is right or wrong for the other side of the arguement. I am an atheist, this post is exactly why. I also live by a very high moral standard. It was taught to me by my mother and father who are very religous. I also dismissed everything they taught me about their religion at the age of thirteen. Didn't , couldn't and wouldn't allow myself at that age to be taught something I should find on my own. I did take away the high morals though but they can be taught without religion. Although it has been interesting hearing both sides of the debate, and I respect both sides, IT DOES NOT HELP THE CAMPAIGN. It does nothing but divides us and goes against what Ron Paul teaches. Which in a nut shell is LIVE AND LET LIVE. Please let this discussion continue somewhere else because it is one that needs to be understood. But not hear and not now.

“We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”Thomas Jefferson

“We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”Thomas Jefferson

Government and the Church both desperate

Government and the Church both desperate to be turned right side up. We all realize our government needs to be turned around; some of you have totally given up on the government (myself included) but now that there is someone to stand behind you have hope (that's what RP is all about). Similarly some of you have totally given up with the church (myself included) Jesus is still the guy that gives me hope and I continually turn back to him. I can find no fault with Jesus' teachings and I no one can as he is God himself. If you are full of hate or apathy for the church or for the government, go back and understand the start of both you won't find fault with either; the spirit of both are completely good. It has been my long standing opinion now that no large organization can resist corruption we as humans are too weak. We can only pray for forgiveness and forgive one another. Can you forgive RP for the newsletters? I can. God bless Ron Paul, one of the best things we can do right now is to pray and fast for Ron Paul.

how...

did I know, if I opened this, I would find a big ole' argument.

Because You're a Prophet

And your momma didn't know? :)

I know it can get testy on this topic, and it really doesn't need to be discussed here in my opinion. Even though i've posted 3-4 times myself.

We need a completely different forum for this. And it feels like the halls of the Continental Congress all over again. Just imagine the heated debates when our Founding Fathers were deciding whether to Declare Independence or not. Whoopee!

I respect all who are for equal Liberty for mankind.

In Liberty's Cause

In Liberty's Cause

Why is religious discussion

always dismissed as "arguments?"

Glad the topic headline makes it easy to avoid for those so inclined.

I wouldn't mind if God ran our gov't

but it wouldn't be God, it would be churches and religious leaders and many of them are seriously disturbed individuals. So until God shows himself on earth and says he's taking over, no thanks.

Totally Not Hogwash

The biggest killers in history were atheists. The next biggest was the 'organized church' who killed people who were unwilling to 'convert' not just to Christ, but to their particular brand of christianism. That this killing and torture was done in the name of Christ is most unfortunate. Real Christians don't do that. Somewhere it seems that so many people in this Country have this distorted view that if a person is a politician that they have to reject their faith. That is not true.

The previous poster did bring up some valid points. But he needs to read the history of our founding fathers first before saying 'most' were deist. Most of them were strong Christians and many were even Ministers. I was taught the same thing in public school. And read more than just one quote by Thomas Jefferson, who along with Benjamin Franklin, were probably the least religious. Here's a quote by Jefferson that alludes to the previous poster. "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

So I hope I don't have to read another post on this subject on DailyPaul.com But the discussion is lively!!!
I'll fight to the death your right to refuse to believe.

I am a Christian who believes that for one to have eternal life, you must put your faith in the Blood of Christ which He shed on the Cross.

I do not adhere to the belief that the state should in any way form or fashion force people to convert to any religion - including 'Statism.' (sounds sort of like Satanism.) Statism is the religion of the CFR and the Socialist/Marxist.

In Liberty's Cause

how do you figure

that they were Christians and not Deists?

the majority of the significant founders were Deists or you can't claim them as anything,

You can't claim Washington, Jefferson, Paine, Madison, or Franklin as Christians

We have been mistaught

I used to think the same thing. But just as the Constitution hasn't been actually taught in our public schools for about 120 years, neither has the 'real' Founding Fathers.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=113

But do remember we fight the same battle. Our goal is to keep the boot off of our necks. Be it a 'right' or a 'left' boot, or any other boot!

Agreed!?

In Liberty's Cause

Well-intended post, I presume...

However, please do not be mistaken: I wrote "many" were deists, not "most", and I did make sure to make the distinction when I wrote it. This probably throws off most of your argument. I'm actually intrigued with your Jefferson quote as it was one I considered including in my first post. Actually, the founders did not take the subtle points of freedom and liberty lightly, and the Federalist papers are very enlightening on their motives and thoughts - much more than can be contained in the Constitution.

I will clarify one point of confusion though: my post is not one of atheism vs. religion. Indeed, read my posts more carefully, as they are written without intent to reveal my own religious convictions. Please refrain from judging my spirituality when I have kept that to myself; it is irrelevant to my wishing to point out the offense of the original poster, much as you (a person of faith) point out the offenses of other Christian establishments.

Personally, my reflections on statism and totalitarianism is that they always require either some form of divinity (Holy Roman Empire) or mystic associations to a higher power(cult of personality, Stalinism, Hugo Chavez, Castro, or Mao), which is often confused with atheism.

Sorry about that.

I try to be accurate, but most of the time I've just read the post and am going on memory. But I stand corrected. However, it really doesn't throw off my argument. I was just pointing out that most if not all of our Founding Father's were definitively Christian in their understanding (all may not have been 'Born Again Professing Christians') and their 'World View.'

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=113 is one reference link.

The main point is that we BOTH believe that the individual should be a free man! And to that end we both fight!

We have differences, which is a good thing. Obviously, I don't know your spiritual condition, and don't venture to guess. (if you were referring to me in that respect; I'm not sure.)

Your last paragraph is I think an accurate assessment.

In Liberty's Cause

can't we get back to discussing our differences

AFTER we win this thing?

What is Morality?

Is it outlawing a plant given by God that CURES 3 kinds of cancer? Regrows brain cells and treats alzheimers? That keeps Glaucoma patients from going blind? And cannot be duplicated by "synthetics". Like synthetic leather synthetic anything is @#$@.

Outlawing a plant that can make our country energy independent and is the best source of making ethanol and 5,000 other industrial uses? That our Founders grew and SMOKED? That our constitution is written on? And much much more. Your post insinuated that Marijuana is immoral when in fact the outlawing of it is a crime and very immoral ! Get above the ignorance

www.abovetheignorance.org

The problem is that Christians seem to be very immoral but claim morality. But their morality is unasailable because they believe themselves to be declared moral by G-d. I was chased off of a church parking lot for trying to give people Pro life liturature about Ron Paul sunday by one grumpy "moral" woman.

Thomas Paine.."I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" John Adams...

Thomas Jefferson, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian."

He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac"

"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."

Thomas Jefferson, letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, & quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)

James Madison... "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria. The great seal was designed in circa 1913 when the FED was created...

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."

I respect your right to believe what you want. But, please don't preach your BRAND of morlality. The tenents of the modern Christian Church requires that 2/3rd of Jews be killed to usher in the messiah while they escape in a "rapture." Isn't it this philosophy that is driving the middle east agenda? To Arm Arabs and stir up the middle east in a self fulfilling prophecy of Armagedon. A religion of death!!

It is the modern Christian Church that supports the oppression of G-d's natural cure for many diseases and cure for our enviroment and dependence on foreing oil?

Yes, many some were christians, but not near as many as you would believe. And, Morality and Christianity are mutually exclusive. Morality is doing no harm to another and live and let live. When Christians fight for the legalization of Marijauana then they can claim to be moral people.

Ron Paul is a Moral Christian.. As for the rest the debate is still out. Huckabee certainly isn't.

www.abovetheignorance.org

moral is

I believe morality and natural law goes hand in hand,and both come from a creator.

"Stop paying lip service to the Constitution,and OBEY IT!"-Ron Paul

You are making good points

But I wish you would stop quoting those founding fathers. *IF* they truly said those things, then you should be despising them- not Christianity. Don't you see the irony?

There is NOTHING in Christianity that says marijuana should be illegal. It's a mistake. But the concept is that "Thou shalt not kill." Some think that is what these drugs do. That is the confusion.

God made the Cannabis in the Cannabis plant

and He said.. it is good.. in fact everything in the world is good.. its how you use it.. if you drive on Cannabis.. well you could hurt someone so hide your keys when your hitting the bong or vape machine..

------------

This poster makes no claims as the the usage of any foriegn substance even coffee...ok.. I do drink coffee...

I can't be dishonest can I?

Marijuana has never killed one single person. Even with Cancer. And, it still wouldn't be a violation unless you made someone smoke 2 tons at gunpoint. Caffine is more dangerous than Marijuana and much more "addictive".

In Fact since marijuana cures cancer and grows brain cells those who smoke it have more brains! More Nuerons... www.abovetheignorance.org

"IF" the founders said those things. My "dear friend" to quote McCain , how about I reverse it and say "IF" the founders said the quote in the original thread. I gave the "source" and they are part of the public record.
The Treaty of Tripoli that says "the US is NOT a Christian Nation" is also undisputable public record. These quotes are undisputable. Why would I hate the founders? I respect your right to believe. I could be sitting with you in church some day because I do go.

The 3 wise men were Zorastrians. Zarathursa prophesied the Messiah after smoking the Holy Herb. So the Christmas story is one of 3 stoners on a road trip.
In Fact, Marijuana is in the BIBLE several times. Marijuana is in EVERY major Religion as Holy..IT is an ingredient of the Temple Anointing Oil. This is why the prohibition of marijuana is unconstitutional.
Marijuana in the OT
http://www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/mayjune96/kanehbos...

Jesus and Marijuana
http://www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/cc11/christ.html

If this is true (1st class condiditon / and it is) then Christians who are against the legalization of Marijuana are apostate. So you admit that Christians are basically ignorant of the Bible and will believe what the Clergy say. So "Ruled By G-d." really means ruled by "men in the clergy.".. That is Facism... So even you confirm the points against this post. Unless God himself comes to earth to rule.. NO THANKS to a religous ruler.

I know a great deal about the bible. I'm the guy who always says.."No weapon formed against us shall prosepr." when they attack Ron Paul. or "IF G-d be for us who can be against us." These things are true. I'm not saying the Bible doesn't have truth or that there is not a G-d. But, Honesty is Honesty, even if I or someone else doesn't like it.
Clergy are the enemy of truth ! They are the ultimate "spinners."

All tyrants used religion, case and point Hitler... http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

Exactly why the founders DID say those things.. Religion is great on a personal level, terrible on a national one. Despite what you may think. I'm a very religious and spiritual person. But, I can't be dishonest. Its just the unpleasant truth that Crhistians don't want to hear.

Why do I write G-d instead of spelling it out? Maybe my belief in G-d has something to do with it? Respect for the Holy Name?

Total hogwash...

How does one so thoroughly confuse history like that? Most tyrants have used the God appeal or some other form of mysticism as a rationalization for their rule in the face of reason. Hitler appealed to the Germans by conjuring the cross through imagery and oratory.

Many of the founders were deists, which was about as close as one came to atheism during the age of enlightenment. Here, the chief author of the Declaration of Independence is quoted:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." -- Thomas Jefferson

Further:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -- John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

Faith is a personal pursuit and ceases to be genuine when endorsed or coerced by the state.

Like Hitler..

Like Hitler?? A photo gallery of Hitler and christian symolism / the many priest he employed and celebration of Christmas...

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

Please delete this darn thread. It really is divisive and really is a distraction. I know you mean well.

You must be a super-sonic reader

A very short review for a very in depth link. LOL.

This discussion is going no where fast. Let's use our heads here.

To start with, the original poster did not include a lot of American history that came before the Constitution. The Constitution may be the law. It was not written by Christians. But the culture of America then and now is mostly Christian. That is how we can have a Christian nation and a government based on Masonic ideas.

God is all-powerful. He can use lemons to make lemonade.

No just a down-to-earth thinker...

Yes, indeed they were also Christians in Salem, but that should not comfort anyone. Declaring your faith and how it has guided your personal choices is fine, but to suggest that those who aren't Christians are somehow incapable of morality is a shame and should be pointed out. Furthermore, distorting the intent and words of the Founders to support such irrationality completely rebukes what makes the Constitution significant. The founders feared rule by divine right; they established a new system based on the concept of man as his own means and his own justification.

Constitution vs. corrupt gov officials

Christianity vs. bad Christians

See a pattern? Let's make this distinction in our discussion. There IS a disconnect between the Constitution and Christianity, but this forum is too small for that discussion. However, Christianity can do well under this form of government. It can survive any government. But good governments can not survive without the principles upon which Christianity is based.

Man is not his own justification. That is lunacy and asking for trouble.

Christianity can do well

Christianity can do well under the founder's government, and so can any religion freely practiced. It was never meant to be exclusive to people of any faith or lack thereof.

As to your last statement, here's the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

That is, the founders asserted that regardless of whatever one considers the source of their creation, the very entity of being human is enough to endow specific unalienable rights. Yes, it was indeed lunacy and asking for trouble at the time - no nation had ever been established on such an idea and the colonies would fight dearly for it.

THE PLOT AGAINST THE CHURCH BY MAURICE PINAY

THE PLOT AGAINST THE CHURCH BY MAURICE PINAY

http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/pinay/

Part 1: The Secret Driving Force of Communism

1. Communism as Destroyer

2. The Creators of the System

3. The Head of Communism

4. The Financiers of Communism

5. Jewish Testimony

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 2: The Power Concealed Behind Freemasonry

1. Freemasonry, enemy of the Church and Christianity

2. The Jews as founders of Freemasonry

3. The Jews as the leaders of the Freemasons

4. Crimes of Freemasonry

5. Freemasonry as spreader of the Jacobin revolutions

6. Freemasonry favours and spreads Communism

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 3: The Synagogue
of Satan

I see how well the fundamentalist christians are being led by

Jesus to vote for the likes of Gomer, uh I mean Huckaberee and McClain, sorry I mean McCain. I hate to go out on a limb like that.

Jesus motivating Huck's voters, Not hardly, IMHO !!!!

Please don't blame the Huckster rise in popularity on Jesus Christ !

What's Huck's appeal ? I think it's pragmatism, enticed by superficially 'bible-lingo' sloganeering.

He looks great on the surface - just don't look at his record as Arkansas governor, either legislatively or ethically, too deeply.

If evangelicals did that, they abandon him in droves.

In reality Huck is a statist, meaning he believes that many functions that are properly the province of individuals, families or churches, belong to the State.

[One look at Huck's record in Arkansas is proof of that - he expanded gov't in every concivable area - including inviting Mexico to occupy state property rent free while the built their Consulate - the better to flood Arkansas with illegal aliens. Nice !]

This is not the Biblical view of government.

The true Biblical view is what the founders laid out: strict limits on the power of civil government, with the vast majority of power reserved to the 'states or the people, respectively' : ie individuals, family or private assocations.

I wish it were otherwise, but many of my fellow evangelicals are blind to this distinction. Not all are, though.

Two sites where they're working hard for Ron Paul:

www.LewRockwell.com
www.ChristiansForRonPaul.com

So, when Christians vote for Huck, they're failing to exercise due dilligence in researching him, and missing the truth that Dr. Ron Paul's positions, character & integrity make him by far the better candidate !

CK

Christian Constitutionalists for Ron Paul
"Mandatory Limits on State Power: Psalm 2 & 110"

'History is never influenced by fickle majorities; but only by dedicated minorities who stand unconditionally upon their faith'
-RJ Rushdoony

Christian Constitutionalists for Ron Paul
"Mandatory Limits on State Power: Psalm 2 & 110"

'History is never influenced by fickle majorities; but only by dedicated minorities who stand unconditionally upon their faith'
-RJ Rushdoony