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Weekend Ponderings: Spontaneous Order

So I've been thinking a lot about the movement lately. Where do we go from here? Where do I go from here? Who do I follow? Who's the next leader? What is the best course of action? Does Ron Paul or someone else need to lead and direct us for us to keep up our momentum?

As I was pondering I came across a subject that really resonated with me. I posted this in Michael's Faction Analysis thread but thought perhaps it should be it's own thread because I'd love to hear what other people think and feel about this. Please watch this video first and the others if you have time, they're quite fascinating. Then share your thoughts. I find that it describes us, the DP, and the greater movement to a T. What do you think?

"Spontaneous Order" (4:38)

supplemental videos and thoughts:

Starlings: leadership but no leaders(3:55)

Amazing decentralized school of fish working together to overcome and escape the predators circling about (7:02)

Many people believe that without someone to plan and dictate human behavior, society would fall apart. For those who believe that watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRzwJzOnDwM (1:41)

No traffic lights: Spontaneous Order in Action. Instead of crashing into each other and running over pedestrians everyone just... paid attention. People adjusting to having no directions after having them for so long, may find it slow and difficult at first, but after time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIthEM6pDqw (0:10)

Spontaneous order is a very beautiful thing to see in motion. It is also a very formidable thing to stop or intimidate. It is decentralized and can adjust to emerging situations on a dime in order to compensate for, evade or defeat its foes or circumstances.

The main exhibit, the Ron Paul grassroots. Who told these people to do what they did? Spontaneous order.

Ron Paul is not our leader, he just taught us, awakened us and demonstrated how to live correct principles and then left us to our own to govern ourselves. He always said he doesn't want to run our lives. But here's what he did do, once again referring back to the starlings: Teaching starlings how to flock: http://i.imgur.com/JDe0z.jpg

Wherever right causes are being fought for I believe we will find each other there, spontaneously, with or without pre arrangements. We have been taught and have learned well and we act on it. It seems there are a lot of different thoughts on where we should go next. I say
keep on fighting for what's right, however you see fit. I believe our causes will flow together like water.

What do you think? Is decentralized the way to go, a multi pronged attack, or should we try to keep together under one head, one cause, one course of action? Some other way?

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Become involved as a Precinct Delegate.

The Republican Party is about to implode if it loses this election. A dead mouse could beat Obama and yet Romney is stumbling nearly every day. Was it planned this way to discredit the "conservative" Republicans and smooth the way for the Establishment to gain uncontested control of the political process in the U.S.?

It took me thirty years as a Libertarian to wake up and realize that there isn't going to be a Libertarian third party in the United States influential enough to effect elections or to get anyone in federal office. Today it seems to me that the best offense is to co-opt the Republican Party. The only way to do that is to overwhelm the Republican state organizations with libertarian Precinct Delegates. The job is done in many states already dominated by Ron Paul people.

Most importantly, become a Precinct Delegate. Find out who the Ron Paul people are in your county organization and if your precinct has a Ron Paul person in place. They welcome allies. Find out if it is necessary to live in a precinct to represent it and go from there.

Something else that can be done is to get in contact with the Republican Party. There are schedules of meetings and other functions to attend. In the Q&A sessions ask pointed questions about why the elected officials haven't eliminated agencies or programs and be prepared to back up why your questions are relevant to the "Republican" message of smaller government. Ask why the budget is still bloated and why it hasn't been reduced? Find out what the Republicans have been doing to bring your state smaller government. Hold their feet to the fire and make 'em squirm.

Of course the same same strategy can be used with the Democrats. There are many of them that agree with us in many ways.

It only takes one to KEEP AMERICANS FREE. Know your duties & rights as a juror. Stop the unconstitutional conviction of innocents in federal custody. The Fully Informed Jury CALL 1-800-TEL-JURY www.fija.org IMMEDIATELY if not sooner. It's that important.

Is this relevant to this post

Is this relevant to this post at all, or do you just post this on any topic?

You are suggesting everyone should follow one direction, imposed by you. How about the idea that many will do what you suggest, because they believe it is right? Many will do other things that they believe are right. No one need be forced into a single direction. We can be many flocks with the same goals.

The central Goal

The video touches on one of the most important subjects that could be considered and one in which science should devote much of its efforts in discovering; however that is not the case because like the presenter here he does not address the controlling factor of nature which includes every subdivision of the human body and that of the whole of nature. The presenter leaves us with the impression that everything is random and spontaneous without any central goal. Nature is goal driven. Each and every one from the smallest to the greatest, the greatest for us would be earth itself, has a definitive goal it wants to accomplish. The motivator or controller of these entities is something that has not been explained by science and unfortunately science is not wanting to find out what it is because modern science has done all it could to eliminate God and His creation from the big picture. They want us to believe it all happened “spontaneously” or as an accident of nature. The “scientific view” of how we came to be on this planet and all that it has is easily debunked. Here is one quote that does just that “If, after seeing a room in chaos, it is subsequently found in good order, the sensible inference is not that time is running backwards, but that some intelligent person has been in to tidy it up. If you find the letters of the alphabet ordered on a piece of paper to form a beautiful sonnet, you do not deduce that teams of monkeys have been kept for millions of years strumming on typewriters, but rather that Shakespeare has passed this way.”- P. T. Matthews, The Nuclear Apple We must be guided by specific goals and for me that is doing what God wants me to do. Each person should consider what God wants them to do. If we all have that in mind we will be the greatest force for good the world has ever seen. The liars and criminals will jump out of windows just at the very thought of us all working with one goal in mind, doing what the Creator wants us to do.

"We The People" by due diligence effect an "open system"

1. Elya Pregogine wins 1977 Nobel Prize for his discovery of "open systems." A system achieves viability as it increases it's complexity, transversely a closed system is devoid of viability, collapses.
2. Closed systems lack a mechanism, complexity, for dispersing energy. It is a simple system.
3. In a membership organization, a closed system means the power structure is not distributive but a simple one(top-down), and the result is that power is extracted from the membership until the resources therefrom are depleted, and the organization experiences collapse.
4. Thomas Jefferson was on hand during the collapse of France's version of a closed system; the ruling elite of royalty, aristocrasy and clergy were siphoned off the resources of subjects to the point of depletion.
5. Jefferson returns to America amid the contest between the federalists and anti-federalist, the forming and ratifying of the U.S. Constitution.
6. Jefferson extols a form of government that features and gaurantees "distributive" power, which is characteristic of an "open system."
7. John Adams, also Madison and Jefferson (and others) push for there to be checks and balances in the national government, that is to be comprised of three divisions, it is decided. Here is yet another evolution toward achieving an "open system."
8. The federal government would mediate interstate affairs to prevent abuses of power between states, and maintain openess between all states. There would be no impruriant binds one state could place on another. This would affect equalibrium of power between states.
9. Jefferson and others advanced the Bill of Rights, which established negative liberty upon the national government, whereby the national government was to preserve individual liberty, for the life, liberty and property of every citizen. The national government could not give itself new powers. In the context of our consideration, the national government could not act to effect a "closed system," by simplifying the power structure (for instance, in an attempt to extract and retain power and resources from the membership).
10. The Bill of Rights recognized that positive liberty would be exersized by the people, or if they wished, and saw it as fitting, could be confered upon their respective states. All private interests of the people would normally be satisfied by their own means, genius and style of enterprise. Membership was thereby granted full efficacy and also perpetual viability.

Another term for this science is called "Chaos theory." But I prefer to use the phrase "open systems," whenever I relate to others about the amazing instrument providence has gifted us with, a system of government that offers it's adherents and restorers full efficacy--ie liberty!--and perpetual viability.

That is indeed a bright hope and confidence to hold out for our children and their children, and on and on. For a long, long time into the future.

If you appreciate my view of what good government is, and how it points to garnering the support of persons in our local and building up the strength of liberty at home first, then please support my candidacy for state representative.


Thank you.

Will Benge
Candidate for State House
District 33, Washington State

I've said it before and I'll

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think we could get a lot of great work done if we focus our efforts on three things:

1) take back the debates from the fascists
2) work to implement a more transparent voting process.
3) continue to educate about the Fed.

I bet there are a LOT of people out there who haven't really taken an honest look at the liberty movement that would be willing to work with us on the debates. We could win a lot of new minds by starting with that.


in no particular order:
• eliminate electronic voting: repeal H.A.V.A.
• eliminate video bans: demand full access
• restore exit polling by the people for the people
• FDI: Full Disclosure Initiative ... whois a freemason?
• eliminate media "projected results"
• dissolve the Commission on Presidential Debates Inc.
• eliminate party affiliation on ballots
• boycott liar media

How about...

...the deliberate free choice of individuals? Away with this evolutionary hogwash! High development from deliberation, not mystical scientism.


"The world has never known more oppressive governments or bigger governments than those which profess the cult of liberty." - Donald Sanborn

On spontaneous order and leadership...


I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!


wow these are some great examples

Thanks for sharing everybody! good stuff

It would be wonderful if some kind of spontaneous order

could develop behind the Liberty candidates who will be on the ballot on November 6.


To me it seems like spontaneous order emerges when there is leadership, not necessarily leaders. I admire your leadership and efforts to raise awareness of liberty candidates and their need for support. Keep it up. Presidency would be nice but without local state and national representatives in place to help a liberty president out we have little hope of affecting much change. Thanks Dixie

Another example of Traffic Lights vs No Traffic Lights...

A side by side comparison of the same intersection with and without traffic lights:


I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!


Don't forget about the largest evacuation in world history....

Spontaneous order was also responsible for the largest evacuation in world history after 9/11:

"At first, the response by local vessels was completely spontaneous. Ferries, tug boats, fishing boats and other vessels pulled up, filled with tired, dust-covered survivors, and made for the nearest shore – often Brooklyn, just across the East River, New Jersey across the Hudson, or Staten Island on the other side of New York Harbor."


I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!


reedr3v's picture

Oh wow, thanks for that beautiful story.

Wouldn't it be lovely to see a website that featured this type of story, individual heroism -- ordinary people taking personal responsibility and getting the job done, not waiting for the slow, rigid gears of timid, rule-bound official bureaucracy to get moving?

here is another

TEDTalks: Steven Strogatz: How things in nature tend to sync up
Mathematician Steven Strogatz shows how flocks of creatures (like birds, fireflies and fish) manage to synchronize and act as a unit -- when no one's giving orders. The powerful tendency extends into the realm of objects, too.

Exercise Your Rights. If You Don't Use Them, You Will Lose Them.
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Ilya Prigogine Order out of Chaos


Is an older, but wonderful reference if you want to get more into the details of how Order emerges.

For me, The reason to have a leader like Ron Paul, or someone else is as a focal point for the philosophy - someone to introduce a new way of thinking to people stuck in the old dialectic. We could measure how many people we had effected by watching Ron Paul's success.

If Ron Paul is not participating in politics anymore, and our movement is factionalized with regard to the best political outlet, it just means we don't have a good measurement of our success anymore, not that the movement is dying.

There are other ways that we can express ourselves beyond politics. And there is local politics that can work, and these is economic measures that you can use as well - particularly ifwe cold come up with an alternative Currency/economic system to use - the old hackers code of routing around damage in the system.

Good point

"The reason to have a leader like Ron Paul, or someone else, is as a focal point for the philosophy."

In the last link I listed:
Teaching starlings how to flock: http://i.imgur.com/JDe0z.jpg

The author introduced the concept of a programmer, and that to program a flock of starlings you "dont try to choreograph the whole ballet" but what you do instead is devote all your time and resources to programming the individual starling. Teaching it the basic rules of how to fly, how to react, how to respond and interact locally with your fellow starlings. That's kind of what Ron did with us. He was the programmer, the focal point for the philosophy, the program if you will. He never tried to run the movement or tell us what to do and where to be, what to say, what to think, what to feel. He just woke us up, taught us the principles of liberty and planted the seed in our minds. After he did that for one, or several, or even large groups he gave them the charge, once you have been enlightened its your responsibility to do something about it. In that way he began to clone, or better said, began to spread the message and grow the movement. He provided the leadership and the philosophical focal point as you suggest, but he did not lead it. We did.

So perhaps because we are our own leaders we do not need a leader per say, but a philosophical focal point or someone that champions it so we can continue to share and spread the message. For many that is Ron Paul's message, or interpretation of liberty. His set of programming rules if you will. I agree with parts of others programs, but none as completely as Ron Paul's. Does that mean "no one but Paul", "Paul til I die"? Ha, no, not necessarily. In that same link about the starlings
it suggests near the end that if your flock behavior isn't quite right, keep iterating and reprogramming the individual starling until the flocking of the thousands of birds become satisfyingly true to your mission. So is Ron Paul's programming perfect? No. Is it pretty close. I would say yes. Can it be improved upon? Yes, and I'm pretty sure Ron Paul himself was hoping someone or many someones would take up the banner and run with it and improve on and expand what he started. If that means tinkering with the philosophical focal point than so be it. I would be wary to adjust it myself as I feel its pretty darn good, but if there are others so inspired and can with intelligence and integrity improve upon it by all means do so.

The first video talks about the rivaling functions, organs, and particles within the body that, fight, collaborate, conspire, cooperate, and bump heads and synergize. The video says that if this did not happen we would fall over dead. These processes and internal battles are what keep up alive and healthy. I believe the differences in opinion and actions that play out and clash with each other on the pages of the daily paul and within the movement are healthy for us and makes us all stronger and wiser for the trouble (as long as the debate remains civil of course). In this way I believe the best ideas and best courses of actions will rise to the top. Poor and ill advised ideas will be dissected and their flaws revealed. As different parts of the same movement towards liberty I believe that though our actions and functions may seem to clash or contradict at times I believe it will all work out in the end towards the goal.

I agree, I believe there is a need for someone to set the philosophical focal point but not necessarily lead it. Just someone to program it and let it run. Perhaps others to fine tune it to iron out any bugs.

Wonderful analogy

I've sometimes described the economy and society as "organic," organized from the bottom up. This video clip does a beautiful job expanding on the idea. I think I'll be bookmarking this one and spreading it around.

Studying biology has given me

Studying biology has given me some explanation how spontaneous order works. People may find it a tragedy that the weak cells die off, but what do you call a cell that can never die? Cancer cells are simply weak cells that have found a way to escape death. Sometimes cancers can remain contained for years and years because other cells work to find a weakness that allows them to kill those cells. I find it amazing that all of these mechanisms follow in-programmed rules, a dynamic relationship between genes and environment, stimulus and response. It is much more complex than any human mind understands.

reedr3v's picture

The truly free market would be a constant

spontaneous building of the innovative and strong while destroying or correcting the unresponsive and weak.
the free internet is another great example.

The starlings are massing...

this is chaos theory. I wanna bet a lot of you actually own CHAOS by James Gleck. Big hit in the 1990s (Everyone I know has like 2 copies of it floating around)


I do

DJP333's picture

The New Century

I think you are on to something. The more I wonder, I think that the last century was about centralization, I believe that the new century is about decentralization and concentration on the philosophy of individual liberty. Because it is liberty that teaches that you should be the change you want to see in the world, and each of us has a different gift of liberty to give to the world, which has to change if the individuals that comprise it change.

"It’s not pessimistic, brother, because this is the blues. We are blues people. The blues aren’t pessimistic. We’re prisoners of hope but we tell the truth and the truth is dark. That’s different."

I have been thinking the exact same thing, DJP

I have been looking at every social structure in our society, informal ponderance of course, and, in the case of most all of them, am percieving their roots are founded in a "closed system" construct. Somewhere in their history they suffered a collapse resultantly, and are presently diminished, a shell; ineffectual.

--OR-- they are headed for a collapse.

--OR-- they were at one time open, ultra-responsive and viable but have since devolved into a closed system and are... headed for collapse.

The latter represents our constitutional republic.

However, we can effect an open system by renewing the original conditions established in our founding documents.

This effort, more and more of us will begin to percieve, points to reaching out to the members of this organization who are by right the actors, the producers of positive actions, the holders of positive liberty... our fellow citizens in our neighborhood, our precinct, our district, our county.

These folks are the source of power, a power that the mischief-makers in our system are coveting for personal gain and extracting by means of effecting a closed system of governance, they defeating checks and balances--and every obstacle that dare lay in their dubious path.

As pro-liberty folks, we are fighting to counter that effort of closure and to break through and restore openess and necessary structural complexity, integrity.

The answer, the element of complexity that is saving, equals the many that are to come: the numerous independent individuals who are sure to arrive, to respond positively, and come together into a healthy coalescence (an all-American sort of inter-dependence) and liberating self-awareness.

This is a call to each of us! Work your area. We cannot be a 'no show' and expect good results.

In this, we have every advantage: the numbers, the genius, all the magic and miracles that really can emerge from NOWHERE and just at the right time: all of it gushing up from the eternal springs of.. chaos.

That is, if we put our foot forward into the darkness, and give those "quantum forces" something to act on. Do it!

With such an awesome universe at our disposal, itself a living testament to the beneficent Designer, we have every force working with us... that is, if we should dare to wish to change our world to something more reflective of Him, brilliant and breath-takingly beautiful.

If you appreciate my view of what good government is, and how it points to garnering the support of persons in our local and building up the strength of liberty at home first, then please support my candidacy for state representative.


Thank you.

Will Benge
Candidate for State House
District 33, Washington State

Great comment

I read it twice and still got goose bumps.

"What would you do if you knew you could not fail"


comes from individual liberty that allows individuals to do what they please within particular rules. But if majority decides to change the rules, who can oppose them?

For example, if majority have decided to do away with free speech, sound money and natural law, who can stop them? Another dictator?

Therefore, the ONLY way out is for Libertarians to bite its pride and admit that Ms Ayn Rand was right.

The only way out is abandoning MORALITY of sacrifice supported by both collectivist left and religious right. New MORALITY, based on reason, will allow long-term stable free society. Religious mysticism, longing for utopia and any other irrational "feel-good" & "help others" thinking must be abandoned as PUBLIC MORALITY. It does not mean we have to forbid religion. It simply shows the way out - unless majority accepts morality based on reason, expect no stable long-term free society.

The thing is

following individual rational self interest is not immoral as long as you don't aggressagainst others to do it. And some folks find that it is IN ther self interest to help others.

I love this post

And the videos are inspirational and beautiful. I agree, the next step in the evolution of the liberty movement is to recognize that we don't need coercive rulers at all. We can govern ourselves much better than some corrupt group of parasites hundreds of miles away.


One shot, one kill is a beautiful thing...strive for it...achieve it.

Practice it....heart, soul and mind. Peace. The goal.

"Give a man a gun, and he could rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he could rob the world."