-2 votes

Democracy Killed the DP - Next stop: The Liberty Movement itself

Have the grassroots really become weeds? Is the goal to choke out all the leaders of the Liberty Movement? Is Ron Paul next?

I can't beleive what the 'average' DP member has become - which I gauge by the democratic element - the +/- voting.

In the past month or so, Jesse Benton, Rand Paul, Jack Hunter, John Tate, and more(?) have been torn apart on the DP. If you make a post in their defense, the negatives follow - or worse, you yourself are attacked as being a hack for the GOP. It gets to the point where you are afraid to post. Democracy in action.

The attacks against these folks are unreasonable and embarassing.

Frankly, I don't fit in around here. I presume many of the most reasonable folks have left long ago, leaving just the fringe of the fringe.

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you're a lost cause Bill.

you're a lost cause Bill. You can keep supporting the Jesse Benton retirement fund if you'd like...I'll never donate another penny to a campaign tied to Jesse...to any campaign for that matter. My wife and I maxed out and gave thousands to Dr. Paul...while Benton earned $586,000+ for a few months of "work"...if you want to call it that. It was an AMATEUR campaign from the get go.

Disgusting.

You're one of the most gullible people around here Bill.

“Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it’s realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy.”
― Ron Paul

Almost as gullible as Ron himself

Well - the story is still being written - we'll see where it ends up.

Jesse destroyed our campaign, Tate helped.

He was hired to destroy the grassroots so it wouldn't harm Mitch.

C4L was a grassroots dud and the people in charge wanted it that way.

Free includes debt-free!

sour grapes

How is it sour grapes to say "I think I could have helped and I wouldn't even have charged for it, but they wouldn't allow it"?

What possible argument could Benton have for treating one of our good guys like this? Who defended Dr. Paul more effectively than Tom Woods?

How does that not sound like sour grapes?

You restated it yourself. "I could have..." "...but they wouldn't allow it" I don't know why they didn't want his help... I do know that they aren't out attacking him in public. We only have one side of the story. Because Jesse doesn't defend himself against Tom doesn't make Jesse guilty.

How Tom defended Dr. Paul is irrelevant. I'm not questioning Tom's love for Paul.

As a younger Bill O'Reilly once said...

As a younger Bill O'Reilly once said...

http://youtu.be/ppum72Zqxq8

(language warning)

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

Yeah they were victims and did nothong to deserve it.

Someone please adjust my blinders, I think I can see too much of what's really going on out of my right eye.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Thanks for posting. I feel

Thanks for posting. I feel the same way.

We need more people like you participating in the forums, adding reasonable and skeptical comments, and otherwise trying to focus on effective strategies for the movement.

the attacks against these folks

... are justly deserved. What isn't deserved is calling 1,859 users signed in so far today "fringe of the fringe".

Take a hike Bill.

You must be their king

Thanks for the kind words.

Golly....

If this post had been put up 2 - 3 weeks ago I would have agreed with your frustration. But I was just thinking today of posting that DP has, once again gotten back to the best information forum out there. The range in news topics, philosophical essays and local and state issues posted this week has been refreshing, to say the least.
I was about to say that the DP is BACK!!!!

Thomas Jefferson: “Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Viva La Revolucion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmaTNf4YhEs

I Feel The Same

I think there was a lot of confusion (for all of us) during and just after the RNC. That was our moment of truth, and it shook us all. Now we're in a new chapter, and I think it's important to keep sites like this going. This is the only Ron Paul forum that I really pay any attention to.

When I first came on here, love is what I would say characterized the site. It hasn't seemed that way for about a month, but I agree with you, elviejo, that the information and ...cooperativeness of the site is coming back.

Let's KEEP it coming back. We are Ron Paul. We are the Revolution.

www.standardexcellence.net - Bringing you Oklahoma, Texas and national news & opinion that matters for liberty.

it is because people are

it is because people are realizing they must believe in themselves. who to vote for? YOURSELF!

Michael Nystrom's picture

Rumors of the DP's demise have been greatly exaggerated

Bill, you weren't here at the end of the 2008 campaign, but your post is reminiscent of many such posts at the time, which we jokingly referred to as DP suicide letters. "Oh, the DP is ruined! It ain't what it used to be! I can't stand it here any more, I have to leave!" There would be posts like this weekly. Daily even.

But to address your points:

"Democracy killed the DP." Hardly. The DP rolls on. Where, after all, are you posting this? Where is all of this discussion taking place?

As for the +/- voting, this has been addressed before. It is a useful measure of sentiment, but it is not the final word. The final word stops with you. Regardless of how many negative or positive votes a post or comment has, you can still, in your heart and mind decide whether the post is valid or not. That is the ultimate freedom that cannot be taken away by anyone.

Just remember, all of this is just a bunch of screen names talking to each other. It is not like some of us around here who made the (mistake) of using our real name - lol.

If the arrows disappear, the mob behavior will still be here. It will just show up in the comments. And the fear of saying what's on their mind will still prevent people from speaking up. This is not so much a problem of the site, or the technology, but of human interaction in general.

I would say that anyone who is afraid of a down arrow needs to get over his or her fear. If you can't speak your mind, as an anonymous screen name on the internet, how is it going to be when you get up in front of a crowd of people who disagree with you? We are still in the minority in the overall population in terms of our views and opinions. Think of the DP as a training ground to sharpen your debating skills. Don't let down votes bother you. Don't let dumb comments bother you (you can vote them down, lol). Find the people who make sense and learn from them. I learn so much from some of these comments. Others are annoying and I ignore them. Ultimately the power is yours.

Finally, as you may recall, using his real name, and real presence standing alone with his beliefs on stage before a large and hostile crowd, Ron Paul was loudly booed, on live national television for saying something that was 'unpopular.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD7dnFDdwu0

And you're going to tell me that you're afraid to express your opinion because of a down vote? It is nothing to be ashamed of, but it does mean that some of us have a lot of work to do.

p.s. I downvoted your post to give you some practice. Did it hurt? Don't let it. It was nothing personal. And it doesn't mean anything, unless you choose to give it meaning. The buck stops with you!

Peace out.

To be mean is never excusable, but there is some merit in knowing that one is; the most irreparable of vices is to do evil out of stupidity. - C.B.

Michael

I am sorry for wasting more of your time today, but I owe you an apology. I gave you a link to my post stating that Obama had restylied the American Flag to be flown at Federal Buildings on November 7. That is NOT the case. I did not read the Snopes report correctly. I am very sorry for passing along incorrect information to you. I realize you are a very busy person. I thought I had verified my information correctly, but unfortunately, I did the very thing I was trying hard not to do.

Thank you for the Daily Paul. Sincerely, bear

We also need to keep in mind that paid bloggers

We also need to keep in mind that paid bloggers, employed by various branches of government and various foreign countries having been running amok on the internet for years now, to sway public opinion, disrupt unity etc. There have been many articles regarding this that have come out.

As an observant and persistent SOB, I noticed way back that they tend to post 9 to 5, Monday through Friday. Time and time again, the comments or thumbs up on Youtube videos, Redit, blogs, message boards etc. would be trending hard one way or another late at night through early morning, or during the weekend, only to be swung hard the other during typical work hours, or come Monday morning. I used to do battle with many of the paid bloggers at one time, till I realized by the nature of their posts that they were likely getting paid bonuses for every response they could solicit.

At that point I just starting warning others of their presence. Amazingly on some forums, message boards etc. I would post "Will everyone who is being paid to blog here please identify themselves." This often made the suspected paid bloggers go silent.

Anyway, I believe the paid bloggers are alive and well on the DP. So don't get bent out of shape when they skew things. They're just doing their 9 - 5 jobs.

That said, I tend to disagree with Bill on this. I feel the campaign started pouring salt on the grass roots towards the end and some former staffers are still doing so. Maybe they were offered cushy jobs in the mainstream GOP, as Jesse Benton has been, to kill us off.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

Yes!!! The up down voting is

Yes!!! The up down voting is absolutely necessary. How else will those who can't think for themselves decide if a point/post is valid or not???

Furthermore, the up down vote is very convenient, you don't have to "vote" by presenting a counter argument, you just have to push a button!!!

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

lol

I'm ashamed. Even though I'm against promoting democracy as a way to judge posts, I still find myself staring at the top voted topics frequently.

Unfortunately, I think mob mentality is human nature. Which is all the more reason it should be minimized, because it's too easy of a trap to fall into - "A topic with a few votes, must be better to look at than one with none."

Violence is human nature too, which is why we do our best to discourage it. We should also do our best to discourage mob mentality.

I agree. With one caveat.

99% of the time, I think what Michael writes here is correct.

However, OCCASIONALLY, there are downvote/upvote campaigns, like what happened with "the lawsuit".

Gangs of downvoters or upvoters would either downvote (or upvote) every single post and comment from a single user ON ANY TOPIC FROM ANY TIMEPERIOD EVER because they posted a critical (or complimentary) reply about the lawsuit on one thread.

This is dishonest and is not the kind of feedback you describe in your reply here, Mike. It's more like a gangrape and it should not be tolerated.

Thanks!

Michael Nystrom's picture

As far as it 'not being tolerated'

I don't know how to stop it. I think it is the nature of human herding behavior, which is reflected here.

As far as the lawsuit goes, I think a lot of people were misguided in the beginning. (I think a lot of people are misguided in general, lol).

But if anything, I would say it just goes to show that people need to learn to rely on themselves. No one is thinking for anyone, and a bunch of upvotes or a bunch of downvotes shouldn't be a substitution for people thinking for themselves. That is the only point I'm trying to make. I really don't want to be involved in policing every single vote, nor do I have the resources to do such a thing. So again, it all comes back to education.

Part of that education is that there are manias that take place, so take the voting with a grain of salt.

To be mean is never excusable, but there is some merit in knowing that one is; the most irreparable of vices is to do evil out of stupidity. - C.B.

I'm not disagreeing with the voting per se...

....nor was I addressing the issue of the lawsuit, merely using it as a clear, illustrative example.

Getting downvoted on a comment is one thing. Having 10-20 people gangrape every post or comment you've ever made because you left a critical comment on one thread is quite another.

Does it represent any aspect of liberty? I think not. It's a psyop.

If votes represent human herding behavior

Why not get rid of them?

Michael Nystrom's picture

Because it doesn't get rid of the behavior

Fashion, popular movies and music, popular diets, the stock market, etc - these are all examples of human social herding behavior in action.

Should we get rid of all of these things as well? Outlawing the symptom does not get rid of the cause. The underlying behavior is that humans, when they get together in a large enough group (I think 3 is big enough, lol), behave in a mob like fashion. It will happen no matter what the context. Why try to hide it or ignore it, or - impossibly - make it go away?

My choice is to accept it and learn what I can from it through observation.

To be mean is never excusable, but there is some merit in knowing that one is; the most irreparable of vices is to do evil out of stupidity. - C.B.

We discourage that which is abhorrent to individual liberty

We discourage violence because even though it's a natural human behavior, it does not promote individual liberty. Therefore it's discouraged through criminalizing it and punishing it.

Just as we should discourage democracy as a good way to judge things, by simply not participating in it, nor using it. Democracy, or mob rule, is certainly abhorrent to individual liberty, and therefore why promote the use of it at all?

No, you're not going to get rid of mob mentality by not participating in it, but at least you're not promoting it.

Wrong. Giving people voice is not awarding them force.

Democracy is an unfit arbiter of force that is where the danger lies.

If a dozen people volunteer to create a flying club an buy and airplane. Would it be evil to cast a vote on the brand and model to purchase.

Upvoting means I agree, without creating another post that says "I agree".

Instead of 436 Bumps for an article, I can read the Vote count.

Each comment is a vote of sorts of those that chime in with commentary.

Each OP is a vote for what they feel is timely.

The forum mob behavior is a consequence of holding debate. Still there is no force involved only property rights observed.

Free includes debt-free!

People already have a voice without a vote system

In fact, they have a voice that is represented equally to others and stands on it's own merit. With no votes, everyone's voice stands on equal ground.

With a voting system, one group of people can misrepresent the ideas of others, by ganging up on them and voting them down for any reason including dishonorable and deceptive ones.

I never said there was force involved, I merely related that we should not promote things, nor systems, which are abhorrent to liberty. And while democracy in a forum may not rely upon force, ultimately a democratic system does.

I don't see the difference. Its cosmentic

I can rant in reply. I diagree as in -1.

The point is debate and communications with each other and the room.

Democracy should be promoted where it is useful and does not determine force.

Free includes debt-free!

How is mob mentality ever useful?

It's repugnant.

Prove that it exists here on DP.

Over 9,000 comments to 9000 comments I don't see what your at?

I avoid the mob. It is not my task to change others. When the voting system was enabled I saw it a big improvement. It was just a symbolic comment.

Like any comment open to abuse. In the long run it's unimportant.

Free includes debt-free!

Proven

It will be important to you when your comments get buried.

I need to remove you as a friend, you're not making any sense.