-2 votes

Democracy Killed the DP - Next stop: The Liberty Movement itself

Have the grassroots really become weeds? Is the goal to choke out all the leaders of the Liberty Movement? Is Ron Paul next?

I can't beleive what the 'average' DP member has become - which I gauge by the democratic element - the +/- voting.

In the past month or so, Jesse Benton, Rand Paul, Jack Hunter, John Tate, and more(?) have been torn apart on the DP. If you make a post in their defense, the negatives follow - or worse, you yourself are attacked as being a hack for the GOP. It gets to the point where you are afraid to post. Democracy in action.

The attacks against these folks are unreasonable and embarassing.

Frankly, I don't fit in around here. I presume many of the most reasonable folks have left long ago, leaving just the fringe of the fringe.

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The right to be wrong cannot be infringed.

_

Free includes debt-free!

Except when it damages others.

If for example, you believe you can continue to live without air or without food or water - good on you! You go right ahead and do your thing!

However, if you want to assert your belief and insist that your belief is just as equal or valid as any other belief, such as the one wherein it states that yes you do in fact need air, water and food to live, well I got something for ya -

It's called the boobie prize. Because, in fact, your belief is quite a bit less valid or valuable than the belief in air, water, and food to survive.

Furthermore, your hypothetical belief in that air, food or water is not needed should, indeed, be derided and you should, indeed, be called a moron, if you attempt to assert it as being just as valid as any other belief on the subject.

However, if you want to just go ahead and live that hypothetical belief on your own and you keep it to yourself - all the power to ya!

A vote system greatly amplifies mob behavior

Mob behavior isn't as easily promoted, nor represented without a superficial vote system, which encourages it. This is because people actually have to take the time and thought to read and reply without it.

Comparing my direct experience here at Daily Paul, pre and post vote system, it's made a huge difference, though not for the good.

I tend to agree

However I do like how terrible comments get like -20 and are put into hidden mode. I also like when I only have a little time to skim the comments I can look for the highest rated ones quickly. Perhaps a compromise would be hidden vote counts, that is until they reach a certain threshold then they would be indicated by a symbol.

For example:

You upvote someone but you don't see anything until it reaches say 10-20 upvotes, then instead of a count you just see like a star or something, denoting that it is a very worthwhile comment to read.

same with down votes, you down vote someone but no count is displayed until the threshold of 10-20 downvotes is reached and then it is hidden like they currently are.

I think this would alleviate the problem of mob mentality, dog piling and pre-bias when reading through comments that are downvoted or upvoted, while still allowing us to find the best comments and ignore the troll ones.

I think something like that would be great. What do you think?

That sounds like a novel idea

But, novel ideas are often unpopular...

Eliminate the dog pile, or mob mentality, while maintaining the self-moderation benefit.

Well the clear answer then is...

...that we should elect delegates and representatives and only delegates and representatives should be able to cast votes! :D

That's the (small r) republican way!

Some things simply don't need to be voted on

Especially forum posts. Democracy is certainly not a good way to judge ideas, because new or exceptional ideas are inherently not popular at first.

Though our now 'democratic' society and the collectivists push us into thinking everything should be voted on, from what the best color is to who should be a pop star.

This promotion of democracy in our society as a good way to determine everything has resulted in many thinking we are supposed to be a democracy and majority rule is good.

-1 This makes no sense.

Voting has been trivialized. And like all social tools serves collectivism or liberty.

Tools are not the problem but their misapplication.

Free includes debt-free!

Voting is always collectivist

Voting is always a representation of the majority over the minority. And it's always open to manipulation and deception.

It's impossible to have a vote that is not collectivist.

An absolutist.

Always and impossible. Unsubstantiated claims when examples are all around us.

Free includes debt-free!

Voting is a collectivist activty

That's just a simple fact

I appreciate the comments

I can't argue against any of your points... except I guess the fear of posting is more of a 'what is the point when my post will just be lambasted.'

I do have tougher skin in regards to negatives... they still surprise me at times - but I've been venturing into tougher crowds (defending Rand, Jesse, Jack Hunter).

Thanks - I feel better :p

(And I was around in '07/'08... I just came out of my shell recently... though I may not have been around specifically after the election - I think I just fell into a light depression)

Down voted threads and comments are where some of the best

debates occur. If you have a differing opinion by all means voice it. Be prepared to defend it or adjust it as the comments and rebuttals rush in but don't be afraid to voice it.

Differing points of view are a vital part of what makes the Daily Paul so unique and intriguing. You may be downvoted but you arent deleted or banned because of it like many other political sites that have become nothing more than mindless echo chambers of erroneous thought. Here we debate the issues and back up our assertions not with the goal of gratifying egos or proving who's wrong or right but to search for truth, to hold our thoughts and arguments up to the light and public scrutiny to see if they can stand. If they can not or do not, then it perhaps needs some reworking and adjustment. That's what Michael means by honing your debate skills. You may have excellent points but may present them in a way that either hurts your credibility or has flaws that will invalidate your argument. Work on them. This is a great place to do so. I've even seen obama and romney supporters on here who have taken quite a few punches and down votes for their views but keep on rolling and adding to the conversation. I appreciate their dissenting views and find them useful to improve my own arguments especially when they make really good and difficult points.

As Michael mentioned there were many "DP suicide threads" after the 2008 campaign. Not that whatever they were upset about was funny, but most of us laughed because we knew they weren't going anywhere or that soon enough they would be back. It's darn well near impossible to leave such a great forum like the Daily Paul. This is where the action is. Stick around, or take a break for awhile if you need, but keep adding to the conversation. Another down vote for practice :)

Michael Nystrom's picture

I'm glad you feel better!

I understand the 'what is the point of posting' if it is only going to get lambasted. Except there is what you don't see, and that is the encouragement to others who hold the same opinion as you, but are afraid to speak out. I've gotten killed on threads before, and it is the one single dissenting comment that still gives me hope at times. "At least someone sees what I see." That is encouraging, and you'll never know what kind of encouragement you provide to others.

As for all this ripping down of Rand, Jesse, etc. I was thinking about this last night, and I think it is to be expected, and not something anyone should take personally. Having been a stockbroker, I think what we just experienced with regards to Ron Paul was a full fledged mini mania. Seriously, the way some people were behaving was reminiscent of irrational exuberance. A bubble.

The bubble has popped and Ron Paul's stock is falling. But it is no surprise. As a student of markets, every boom has its bust. There is no need to take it personally. Support around RP is crumbling. The whole staff. Leaving. Jumping ship. Jesse Benton leaves. Tom Woods reveals we all knew Benton was a scoundrel from the beginning. And we did. I can personally vouch for it, and like Tom, I kept my mouth shut about it, too. Jack is behaving in a way that is unexpected to people. People are angry to begin with, so Jack, Tate, Benton and the rest become lightning rods. The Ron Paul stock is now in free fall. But it will hit bottom. And then it will bounce. Feelings will readjust. It is just the nature of human interaction.

Anyway, you might not agree with my assessment, and you can downvote me. :-)

BTW - when you said, I think I just fell into a light depression, do you mean now? I don't blame you, I think a lot of people feel the same way. We had high hopes and expectations, and now there is nothing but confusion and blame and lack of direction. It will pass. Sometimes the best thing to do is take a break. Watch some football. There are plenty of ways to teach and spread the message of liberty outside of politics, and outside of our little clique here at the Daily Paul.

To be mean is never excusable, but there is some merit in knowing that one is; the most irreparable of vices is to do evil out of stupidity. - C.B.

Light depression...

That was last go-around. For one, I didn't think Ron would make another run (2012)... I thought all was lost. I couldn't believe that the masses couldn't 'see the light.'

But, I have more realistic expectations now - and I am very confident for the future. I know Rand is on the poop-list around here lately, but I am looking forward to his future.

I have to wonder if another Ron Paul is even possible - someone of that political purity. Not to compare Ron to Jesus in a blasphemous way, but he might be playing a similar role - as an ideal model - a way of life to aspire to.

Interesting opinion.

I am not sure how threads of comments by paid agents from databases of standard replies is a measure of anything.

It is possible to ignore the votes.

Free includes debt-free!

I would wait until after the general election

Watch 90% here go poof and dissappear.

why wait til November

... why haven't you already left and gone over to that powerhouse garyjohnsongrassroots.com site, Grangy baby? This website is going to be here long after that graveyard has been buried. Real libertarians don't favor murdering babies, just so you know...

Election is in November

GJ website will be closed by the end of November and then he'll return to the GOP, from whence he came, like Bob Barr, Chuck Baldwin, etc., etc....

Real Libertarians see the opportunity Ron paul gave us and are going for the major party, getting out of the fringe pool.

anyone who uses the term "fringe"

... is by definition a sheep. Go back to the GOP herd, fools. I'm an individual from here on out. I will never again vote for ANY candidate with an "R" or "D" next to their name.

Do what you want

Let's see how far you get bringing liberty your way.

Oh Please. How dare we down

Oh Please.
How dare we down vote someone. You can't expect everything on here to receive standing ovations and be rushed to the front page.

Southern Agrarian

Thanks for missing the point

I wasn't whining for recognition. My point is that, since the +/- is democratically controlled, you can gauge what thinking is in the majority on the DP. The majority currently is embarrassing and is acting like a flock of sheep in their attacks on the very people that have been leading the charge.

When I see a post like "Can the RNC reconvene and withdraw its nomination from Mitt Romney?" getting 37 votes - I know the majority are fools. The majority simply doesn't live in reality.

ytc's picture

I don't know about the democratic nature of +/-, but I must

agree that it can be an awfully frivolous indicator of amorphous nature. Sometimes I hastily vote + for good titles, change to - in the middle of a paragraph for some offensive statement, but then back to + for giving me some good occasion to reflect on something new. . .

For Glenn B -related posts, I don't even bother to read or slap - ratings. He, and most of the noisy self-glorifying MSM characters, are too irrelevant for me to even bother to give my +/-.

LL's "Can the RNC reconvene. . . " post IS a silly one, but then, it made me wonder if there is any real legitimacy in allowing the two R & D private clubs to continue to dictate the rules of how we elect the President of USA. Just as with End The Fed, perhaps we should Audit & End the R&D monopolistic grips of POTUS election system. (BTW, the 2012 R & D primaries were EXCELLENT for demonstrating the fraudulent nature of the entire system. If we, liberty delegates & alternates, weren't there on the floor, it wouldn't have been exposed as clearly, imo.)

That is the way online forums

That is the way online forums work, hive mentality.

Southern Agrarian

I thought it was a fanciful idea. I would vote for it.

Hey GOP, we would give you a second chance. The offer is real, certainly not likely.

Maybe you misunderstand why people here vote?

Free includes debt-free!

Sometimes I do miss the point of +/- voting

My skin is certainly tougher than before.

It is debatable what the votes really mean... they are used differently at different times - or differently by different people. It just seems out of whack lately.

Yes - for the article mentioned above, I assumed people were really trying to make it happen. (Keyword being assumed) Hell, I just posted in that thread myself (but I didn't +/- the article!)

sure these are long-shots

• re-convene the RNC? highly unlikely.
• re-convene the Libertarian convention? remotely possible?
• win a write-in campaign to elect Dr. Ron Paul? most improbable

Yet these are my top three possibilities because:

• I stick to principles and I'm made from good solid moral fiber
• I will never again vote for ANY D's nor R's ... EVER
• I've been a part of some pretty amazing come-backs and one thing they all had in common was ... we never stopped believing in ourselves

One thing all the stupid mindless sheeple such as YOU, Bill ... have in common is you DO NOT believe in yourself and you DO BELIEVE THE LIES coming out of your idiot-box television you watch all day long. YOU're the problem Bill, not us "fringe of the fringe". Feel free to take back your insults and I will do likewise.

reedr3v's picture

You may be right, but I don't look at is as

Democracy so much as a free-thinking (often just free-associative), uncharted forum with no clear direction, rather like an open sourced, libertarian-leaning forum. The flood of Newbies is to be expected with growth of the movement; and the loss of RP as an acknowledged inspiration is most unfortunate.

Knowledgeable, rational people still read and post here. Whether the seasoned and informed will stick around to help educate the newer people remains to be seen.

There are many great libertarian websites now; none have the terrific forum format of the DP yet, but some are growing well and are more focused in their mission and membership.