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A message I got from Campaign for Liberty...saying that educating people will not result in change.

I got the following message from C4L in my email today:


Dear *********,

You already know that an active citizenry is required in order to preserve and restore liberty.

But being active by itself does not guarantee you a win, and using the wrong techniques can do more harm than good.

If you are going to spend your time and treasure trying to reclaim the Republic, then let’s do it to win.

This October 14, you can learn all the inside secrets of how to win at the Capitol.

Campaign for Liberty is hosting a One-Day Grassroots Activist School with Kirk Shelley, our Senior Political Consultant.

At this school you will learn proven methods for forcing change in your legislature.

This intense training covers:
The Real Nature of Politics - why “educating” people won’t result in change
The Biggest Lie in Politics - and how the political class uses your convictions against you
How to Work Effectively at the Capitol - getting a bill sponsor and roll call vote despite the leadership
How to Build a Group - putting pressure on legislators
We are still finalizing the details for this class, but I wanted to give you advance notice of the date right away so you would be sure to save the date.

I’ll be sending you the rest of the details soon, but be sure to mark Sunday, October 14, from 9AM to 5PM on your calendar.

There is no prize for second place in politics - you owe it to your ideas and principles to learn how to win at the Capitol.

In Liberty,

Jim Cunningham
Mississippi Campaign for Liberty

P.S. Don’t miss the chance to be a part of the solution. Our One-Day Activist School will be held on Sunday, October 14, from 9AM to 5PM in Jackson. Be sure to save the date!


One thing that struck me rather odd was the assertion that educating people will not result in change. But when I got to thinking about it, it makes some sense. Politicians don't obey the will of the people anyway, and they cheat to get their way. But then again it doesn't make sense. After all, this movement exists because Ron Paul educated us.

So what do you think about this message?

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I'm not sure where it says

I'm not sure where it says educating people will not result in change. This is saying being active alone is not enough.

Obviously educating ourselves on the process it takes to get legislation passed is huge and we should take advantage of it.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto. - T. Jefferson rЭVO˩ution

"Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone.” - BASTIAT

Education is a bottomless hole

that you pour your energy into.

The Soviet citizens were educated. Didn't help.

ORGANIZATION is the answer! The 300 Spartans at Thermopylae knew this.

Rant, rant, rant

The Russians went from a long running ruthless and brutal monarchy to communism and soviet rule without a pause, never having known anything other than tyranny. The few educated, industryous and political leaning where some of the very first to be carted off to the labor camps in Siberia and a cold death.

Besides Leonidas I and his three hundred Spartans there were seven hundred Thespians, four hundred Thebans and eighty men from Mycaene who all stayed to the end and died at Thermopylae. Frank Miller's graffic novel & movie 300, grossly over romanticized the battle of Thermopylae. The Persian invasion was blow back for the Greek instigation of and intervention in the Ionian revolt against the Persian Empire of Darius I who swore revenge and put in motion plans to invade Greece. His death around 486 BC didn’t end the plans for invasion and his son Xerxes I continued the ambitious preparations for it. The Greek states were subsequently visited by Persian emissaries who asked for “earth and water” as a token of submission; all states obliged except for Athens and Sparta. The Athenians put the Persian emissaries on trial in a court of law, whereas the Spartans threw the Persian emissaries down a well.

It's true that Leonidas and the men who died with him at Thermopylae bought the rest of Greece time to unify and organize. But all that organization doesn't make up for bad foriegn policy.

“Politicians are like diapers; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.” ― Mark Twain

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world."

The premise of the meeting is

The premise of the meeting is that everything you learned about politics is wrong, and despite what you may think you do have the ability to organize and have an effect on issues. One of the first points that is made is how few people really determine the outcome in an election typically. Kirk goes through this example. If 100 people represent the population of whatever election you are trying to win then you'd expect that you would have to persuade 50+1 people to vote your way to win the election. This isn't true because only about 60 of those 100 are eligible to vote. Of those 60 only about 40 are registered to vote and only 24 might typically come out in a major election so you would assume you need 12 plus 1 to win. Well of those remaining 24 8 are always voting D and 8 are always voting R and 2 are always voting third party. That leaves only 6 people that really determine the vote and you only have to convince 3 plus 1 of those people or just over 3% of the population to vote a certain way to win. This puts things into perspective. Another thing is that every major political movement in history was started and implemented by only about 3% of the population. If you look at the American Revolution only 3% of the population was actively involved. If you look at the rise of the Nazis and Communists it was only about 3% that were really committed to the ideals, as evil as they were, that totally transformed those countries.This puts things into perspective because we already have over 3% of the population. He goes on to say that there are countless issues where policy goes against popular opinion such as the bailouts, taxes, freedom from being forced to join unions and even fortunately gun control but popular support does not predict political reality because left unorganized that support means little and a well organized minority can have a much greater impact than a poorly organized majority
Later in the course he goes on to talk about how to actually make change happen. It's far more cost effective to force the people in office already to vote the way you want even if they don't believe it than it is to spend tons of money and other resources to just elect maybe a few people into office. That's not saying that you shouldn't also try to elect good people into office or that you shouldn't try to educate people but that in politics the economics doesn't lie and to win we have to start understanding how to manipulate existing politicians rather than cleaning house. You accomplish this by attacking weak politicians that don't vote how you want them to. The more people you take down(make lose their elections) the more afraid the existing politicians become of your organization and the more people start to vote the way you want them to. Also your organization's profile is raised, you get more people and money to fuel your efforts and you are able to do even more next cycle. This isn't just theory. It has worked time and time again. It takes several years to get this system in place but now is the time for us to start working on this. If you are interested in doing this type of thing locally then feel free to message me and I will do my best to help you out and put you in touch with the people and resources that you need. This can be done at any level of government from your voting precinct to the nation. We have to start playing smart or we're not ever going to get anything accomplished.

It's counter intuitive to me but

I'd listen to the reasons they give for stating that it doesn't make a change.

BTW, the meeting was yesterday, did anyone from the DP attend and if so can he cite the reasons given please?

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom — go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, an

Ron Paul has said that once

Ron Paul has said that once you learn the truth you have a responsibility to do something about it. James (in the New Testament) said that he can show us his faith by his works, but faith without works is dead. In other words, education is necessary, but it is not enough alone. Jesus had commanded his followers to be salt and light. He also taught them that if salt loses its saltiness it is thrown out. I think this means we infiltrate the world without sacrificing our principles. Educate people by being active. Believing by working.

Cyril's picture

I disagree. I think both are necessary

I disagree. I think both are necessary, non exclusive to each other, and much complementary, in fact :

1. voluntary education of others, mind opening, and debates, discussions in private circles or close communities

2. concrete activism everywhere it is relevant : voting booths, media presence, outdoors peaceful demonstrations, online presence and forces


"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.


"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius


You can't effect change by only educating people. If educated people don't vote, change doesn't happen.

Maybe instead of speculating on the content

you should have attended the event, met some liberty lovers in your area, and maybe got, dare I say, educated!

I've been to a number of these things and can tell you that your educational efforts are for awareness but without action, we are still living in the same big government run society with people that feel powerless to change it.

It is amazing what a small group of dedicated people can do when they put action behind their words.

Talk is cheap! Start walking the walk and influencing the scoundrels or work to get their butts booted.

That kind of change doesn't happen on a website.

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
www.yaliberty.org - Young Americans for Liberty
www.ivaw.org/operation-recovery - Stop Deploying Traumatized Troops

I think it's great

I hope the event is well attended

I don't think it's that black and white...

...to me it's really not saying education doesn't matter, it's saying education isn't all that matters - practical politics matters too. And that's obviously true.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

The bottom line is you have

The bottom line is you have the freedom to do what you want. If you don't want to participate in training like this or get involved in politics and you think that you can succeed by holding hands around a campfire and singing coom-bay-yah then that's your choice and I don't want to try to take it from you. I believe all of the background philosophy that you do. I've read extensively about Austrian economics, classical liberalism, I've seen Ron Paul and Tom Woods speak, I went to the original Tea Party in Boston in 2007, but at some point you have to make the choice between being a blue-collar-scholar and actually achieving results. If you'd rather be self-righteous and try to bring everybody down who doesn't agree with you 100% then that's your choice, but my name was brought into this discussion unprovoked and I have the right to defend myself. This board has really lost it's vision. It used to be a place to come to be inspired and encouraged by other pro-liberty Americans. Now it seems more like the dailyKos than the dailyPaul.

I am with YOU, Jim!

...even if you don't have "all" the answers, at least do something more than b&%^h about it!

Somebody dared asked me "what have I done to further the cause of liberty more than that man[Jesse Ventura]"

I responded:

Submitted by PatriotsUnderGod on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 20:58. Permalink
... put my money where my mouth is ... and RISKED it all in my own backyard!!!

I ran for state rep...when other cowards professing they believe what we do wouldn't ...


I spoke my convictions at tea parties ...

I organized/paid for our involvement in a parade in my hometown to promote Ron Paul to thousands of my Neo-Con neighbors


I wrote letters to the editor


For what it's worth, I think C4L has gone the way of a K-street lobbying group - "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" - but I also see the good they have done(MORE than Alex Jones and Jess Ventura provocation and hype about American Marines carrying out Gestapo orders in the near future).

I am a Christian; I believe the majority of our INFLUENTIAL founders, framers, and support network of "revolutionaries" KNEW their bible's and the persecution in Europe by the hypocritical, married state-church union/tyranny - and so - I can see only a select few understand Ron Paul's policy positions and wisdom comes from his faith and theology, rather than just secular studies in economics or politics; and only those select few would entertain what I have to say with respect to what it is really gonna take to right this ship with respect to bouncing politicians, and replacing them with TRUE statesmen.

The pure faith of our founders is simply NOT welcomed by those who are fanning the flames of DIVISION on this forum ... it's always been a trying argument to persuade people to understand how biblical Christianity restrained and led our founders, as well as how it is the ONLY antidote to neo-conservatism as well as ALL the big governemnt policies of BOTH "Christian" Democrats and "Christian" Republicans.

To each his own - birds of a feather flock together; I will land somewhere where my worldview is more popular and accepted - or - a great many will find out the HARD WAY that the "laws of nature and of nature's God" is the LAST thing this movement ought to be overlooking!

The Creator is well aware of the evil inside the hearts of our nation's government and all their minions and willing servants - but - He is also aware how many want NOTHING to do with Him for whatever reason; and therefore, things MUST get worse until the people realize WHY we prospered for as long as we did - because gratitude to Him for EVERYTHING was paramount in our early education system until late into the 20th Century.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Rand and Benton are a joke...

COMPLETELY corrupted by the establishment.

I don't play, I commission the league.

All training to keep you using the corrupt system

Participation in an utterly corrupt system is not how you end an utterly corrupt system. Nonparticipation is the key, and CFL is looking more and more like the CFR with their distractions and divisive language.
This is a direct slap in the face of the grassroots, saying what we do is not only ineffective but harmful. Harmful to what? To THEIR goal of political power? If individual liberty is what you treasure, then that is where to spend your time and energy.
I'm glad I unsubscribed, they are such a disappointment.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Persuasion then Indoctrination.

Education interferes with that process.

Evert hing we knew worked, and had proven in out own neighborhoods was disdained by C4L and by the campaign in 2008.

If the kind of crap they are peddling worked for real change then the Democrats or Republicans could have effected change at any time. C4L is just another shepherd looking for sheep.

Hi fishy C, I found these Concentrace minerals, everything a man, woman or child needs everyday as we lose some everyday. A portable version of the hot spring but analyzed as complete.

Peace be with you.

Free includes debt-free!

Thanks, Paul.

I will check into it. I have at last had a breakthrough. A complete mineral / vitamin supplement is something that is very helpful, and I am terribly sensitive to many of the additives and such. With your recommendation, i don't even have to ask... lol!
Our property is not developed enough to winter over on, so we rented a place nearby for the winter. A funky little trailer, with a 160 degree hot spring that the owners use to provide geothermal heat to the residents, and they just opened a soaking pool. Spirit moves in funny ways, I am given this lovely haven of rest, and then stumble across a video of old friends on the floor with machine guns to their heads.... I'll be back at the videography, starting tomorrow. And I had such lovely plans to sit in that hot pool all winter and not draw targets on my back...

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.


We can get vitamins, proteins and essential fats from the foods we gather.

All the mineral does make a big difference. I thought Vitamin D was a big deal, and it is. This is bigger! At least for me.

The waters of Lourdes contain Germanium a powerful immune system activator. The ConTrace is the evaporate of the Great Salt Lake and contains lithium and boron along with 70 trace elements (including Germanium).

Water boils at 160F, -10.7psig. Hmmm with a vacuum boiler it might be possible to make electricity. I wonder if there would be a market for such a thing?

Enjoy your haven. For Augustine God is Truth. I believe God protects the Truth. The messenger, not so much. I'll settle for Truth and what little I can know of it.

Free includes debt-free!

"I believe God protects the Truth. The messenger, not so much."

My mother had a poster when I was a kid - a kitten in a stockade - "The truth shall make you free, but first it shall make you miserable." And I STILL turned out a truther - can't say Mom didn't warn me!
I look forward to showing hubby this - we found vit D to be immensely beneficial, too. I am intrigued by the vacuum boiler comment - have to check into that, too. Our landlords are really very awesome people, although they have this Mitt blind spot. It is a common ailment in Idaho.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

You make me sad. You don't

You make me sad. You don't have to participate in the political process if it's beneath you, but please stop criticizing people that choose to try to make a difference.

I tried the "participation" thing

Quiltingsando described it perfectly - "dancing with the devil." Those who wish to rule over the lives of their fellow men are either already corrupt, or ripe for corruption. What makes me sad is not how many asleep people there are, but how many Ron Paul supporters that joined the GOP and then became part of the machine. "Compromising" with the devil is not an option I will entertain any longer. I am sad that so many otherwise well-intentioned people make this compromise when you were created sovereign. All of life becomes so much simpler when you simply self-govern.
Now I promote aquaponics, have a doofy home video with over 30,000 views, and if even 1% of those people has learned anything about becoming self reliant, I have done more to make this a better world than I ever dreamed possible.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

This is a fallen world.

This is a fallen world. People do evil things. There will always be those who try to reign over and enslave others. It is our responsibility as free men to stop them. Living out in the woods by yourself doesn't make the world a better place.

You are just so off and wrong

Living "by myself" and my family and our animals, we are a living example of how to survive without "government aid." And we actively teach others how to get into aquaponics, including getting systems into schools in our area. Which way do you think will be more effective in ending Monsanto's reign of error? Waving signs and signing petitions, or perhaps voting on labeling - or growing my own heirloom, organic food, and helping my community do the same?

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

I'm a gardener myself and I

I'm a gardener myself and I think aquaponics is fascinating. I want to get some chickens and a goat. I used to be an engineer, I'm an outdoorsman, an aircraft pilot and now I'm studying to be a physician. Trust me I like the idea of being self-reliant. If I had a little more money I'd be doing all of the same things you are doing but right now I'm a student living off of loans. But "self-sustainability" is a hobby. It's not a solution to our country's or our world's problems. There were plenty of self-sustainable farmers and communities in Germany when the Nazis took over and in Russia when the Communists gained control. You will not be safe if a similar scenario were to happen here. Africans were self-sustainable when colonials took their freedoms. Being self-sufficient doesn't guarantee your liberty...but it does guarantee that you'll have plenty of resources that men with guns would love to take from you. This world is ruled by force. The point of a republic is to put force on the side of those who choose to live free. It is our duty to manipulate the system to restore freedom the best way we can. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away.

I am sorry you are so severely limited.

Some people call Ron Paul an "isolationist" for wanting to avoid entangling alliances. That concept applies at the macro and micro level. I do not expect, or want, to be a hermit. But when local resources are the base of the local economy, the community is self-reliant. If the "big company" in town must have components from China to keep American jobs, that is an entangling alliance.
I often complain that politics is a distraction, and no one ever seems to care what I think they are being distracted from, but I will tell you anyway. The enemy fights dirty, and uses the cheapest, most effective weapon it can. It feeds us poison food and poisons our water. We can only survive this for so many generations before we are too stupid and sick to fight. Aquaponics is no hobby, it is the answer to food liberty. If it too much trouble, though, Monsanto will hook you up with anything you care to put in your mouth.
Peace and good luck.
Oh, and just default - they will take your Social Security away - LOL!

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

" Stay Out ",

+1, yes, what you say is supported by common sense, & Scripture. There is a verse in Revelation (#?) that says = "stay out of Babylon ~ ~ ", = the corrupt $ystem.

I attended the training in

I attended the training in Atlanta more than two years ago, and was very offended at the emphasis on how they stopped gay marriage in certain states. And the vitriol shown toward those who were upset with the Citizens United ruling was scary.

There is always going to be a

There is always going to be a certain level of discomfort between the social conservative and libertarian wings of the liberty movement over drugs, homosexuality etc. That doesn't mean we can bury our heads in the sand and not work together where we see common ground. Additionally the techniques taught in the class are not linked to any one set of political ideologies but can be utilized by "conservatives", "liberals", statists, libertarians and practically any other political persuasion imaginable.
Our movement has to have some level of organization and become more sophisticated if we hope to restore any of the freedoms that we've lost. Those who would seek to take our liberties are incredibly organized and relentless. We can't continue to just sit around preaching to the choir on internet forums pessimistically complaining about how stupid everybody else is or naively assuming that everybody is about to "wake up".

The point of today's training

The point of today's training was to get people involved locally and working on projects in an organized fashion. There were people that showed up with the same questions and suspicions that you have in your post but by the end started to understand the strategy even if they weren't on board 100%. One of the things that Kirk said today is that 99% of the people were against the bailouts so "educating" people about the issue wasn't the problem, the problem is that people in the liberty movement need to mobilize. We as liberty activists have to stop posting on online forums and start organizing on the ground. There is an unhealthy trend in the liberty movement to demonize anybody that tries to accomplish anything in politics as being a "sell-out" or "controlled opposition". This is a cancer to our movement and we have to stop criticizing everybody that doesn't agree with us 100% or doesn't publicly endorse every fringe issue.

All I can say is C4L is gonna have to prove itself

Johnny come lately
there's a new kid in town
everybody loves you so
don't let them down.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.