-3 votes

As a Lutheran, I condemn antisemitism

I condemn every aspect of antisemitism. We are all created in God's image, though that image has fallen due to original sin. Because we are God's children, we must love one another as Christ loved us. However, we Christians have fallen into traps of hate. My hero, Martin Luther, did. After advocating treating Jews well and trying to spread the message to them, he was betrayed to the Catholic Church by them. This caused him to be greatly embittered toward Jews, and unfortunately, he became a great and influential to antisemites everywhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_and_antisemitism

I agree that calling Luther an antisemite is an anachronism at best. However, eugenicist and hatemongers everywhere have misused his diatribes to empower their positions.

Six million Jews died in the Holocaust. Many more also died under Stalin. Jews and Christians are being killed in the Middle East as our government installs Islamic dictatorships as they over through the moderate secular regimes like Qaddafi's and so on.

I recall an episode of Family Guy where they were taking a tour in Germany. The historical tour left out 1930-1944. The tour guide's response was they were all on vacation. I think that the antisemitic Holocaust deniers on here just think that 6 million Jews went on vacation during the Third Reich.

I am greatly ashamed of this. We need to stand with both Jews and Palestinians because NO ONE wins in war, not even the people who think they will win.

Peace.



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Your equation of

Your equation of "anti-Semitism" with doubts about the actual number of Jews murdered in the Holocaust is the kind of thing that actually leads to more anti Jewish sentiment. I am not a Holocaust researcher, but from what I have learned recently, there is no solid evidence for millions of deaths.

This doesn't make the Nazis good guys or excuse the horrible way that they treated Jews and other groups. However, the 6 million figure has been used as a shield, to block any criticism of Israel or Jewish privilege there.

Not true

false equivocation. I think Israel must stop being a spoiled rotten brat and actually work with her neighbors. Zionism is about self reliance, yet, Israel is anything BUT self reliant.

Yes, Holocaust sympathy is getting old for some, but that does not down play the responsibility for us to prevent it from happening again. We could easily go down the spiral of hate.

Many of my family were persecuted under Hitler for not being 'German enough'. My family spoke Frisian, no German, a lesser language to Hitler (even though High German is far younger than Frisian).

Antisemities seek to lessen the Holocaust to just a picnic to allow their views to be socially acceptable. If Jews were really forced into ovens by people with skulls on their caps, then people would not take to kindly to those who sympathize with the Third Reich.

May the LORD bless you and keep you
May the LORD make His face shed light upon you and be gracious unto you
May the LORD lift up His face unto you and give you peace
Follow me on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/Burning_Sirius

Burning, what's up?

"Yes, Holocaust sympathy is getting old for some, but that does not down play the responsibility for us to prevent it from happening again. We could easily go down the spiral of hate."

In your efforts to bring awareness to the persecution of this group you are totally overlooking the fact that the same nonsense is being done right now in the name of Americans, Christians, Freedom, and Democracy to Arabs. You are getting hung up on this one group from this one time in history. As they intend you to.

I avoided pointing it out on your original thread but after reading this comment I can't bite my tongue any longer.

Here is my position

I responded to a similar accusation.

You attack Israeli foreign policy by being rational. You site former Mossad experts who are critical of Israeli's current stances in the Middle East. You also use philosophy and logic to help get others on board. Heck, with the internet, people within Israel itself will see all the info and also join our side. Then, the warmongers in Israel will be kicked out of office. It has happened before. Of all people George HW actually had sane policies toward Israel.

What you don't do is deny a historical event happened to undermine all the progress Jews have gained in the West. You do not say they are a bunch of liars playing into very very very antisemetic stereotypes.

New Part:

I agree with you. Israel is going down the path of destruction and wants us and others to go along with it. If we use my path, we can not only prevent it, but also prevent antisemitism from becoming socially acceptable.

Think of it like this, do we blame Germans or the Nazis for the atrocities. Obviously, we blamed the Nazis, the Germans were innocent. Same thing with Jews/Israel. The Israeli government is guilty, not the race. The Holocaust happened to the race/ethnic group, not the state of Israel. Undermining the Holocaust's validity not only would undermine the state of Israel, but also the tolerance the Jewish people now enjoy if Holocaust denying becomes popular. This is a part of the law of unintended consequences.

May the LORD bless you and keep you
May the LORD make His face shed light upon you and be gracious unto you
May the LORD lift up His face unto you and give you peace
Follow me on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/Burning_Sirius

I don't think 900,000 deaths

I don't think 900,000 deaths is exactly less of a genocide. I don't think the numbers matter that much for it to be just as horrible. Does anyone think if the number is one million, it is horrible, but 900,000 it is ok???

But yes, having spent a day researching this - hardly much, the numbers were exaggerated, particularly in the places the Soviet Union took over. They exageratted the numbers for their own political purposes - and they also kept some of those camps running as concentration camps for years after they took them over - something else not usually mentioned.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

By the way - I think you are

fyi - The debate is being used to minimize other concentration camp activity from that time, IE the soviets.

ie:
Approximately 14 million people passed through the Gulag "labour camps" from 1929 to 1953. A further 6-7 million were deported and exiled to remote areas of the USSR, and 4-5 million passed through "labour colonies".[11] The total population of the camps varied from 510,307 in 1934 to 1,727,970 in 1953.[6]
According to a 1993 study of archival Soviet data, a total of 1,053,829 people died in the Gulag from 1934 to 1953.[6] However, taking into account that it was common practice to release prisoners who were either suffering from incurable diseases or on the point of death,[12][13] the actual Gulag death toll was somewhat higher, amounting to 1,258,537 in 1934-53, or 1.6 million casualties during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.[14]

Isn't THAT horrible too?

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Dude, seriously, I have zero

Dude, seriously, I have zero anti Jewish sentiment. My doubts about the Holocaust numbers are not inspired by "anti-Semitism," but by a sincere passion for truth.

I could just as easily say that Zionists maximize Holocaust numbers to allow Israel to do as it pleases. They use it as a shield and in some cases, as a weapon. Norman Finkelstein, not a Holocaust denier, has written about this Zionist tactic, in his book Chutzpah.

There is a difference between

being Anti Israel, Anti Judaism or Anti Jewish.

I for one am for ALL people everywhere equally!

Everyone deserves love...

I wouldn't want to DOWN vote this, and be perceived as "mean"...

...but, a call for some CLEAR understanding of what biblical Christianity is; is what your post is begging for...(so, I will give it an UPvote, a BUMP, for attention)

Because we are God's children, we must love one another as Christ loved us.

We are not ALL God's children by default because the same Creator created us - hence, the idea of being "born again"; an ADOPTION into God's family must take place by an act of the will, biblical repentance, and a turning from sin to God must occur - causing a spiritual transformation.

Secondly, unless one becomes "like Him", they are not capable of "loving one another" in the AGAPE love, like Jesus spoke of!

I recommend listening to all the segments of this sermon by John MacArthur on Matthew 7:13-14 - I found it on SermonAudio.com and made a YouTube out of it because it is very direct, and black and white, and very definitive about how professing Christians MUST possess salvation; not merely profess they have it because they have been in a mainline denomination all their life, and believe Jesus was an actual historical person.

SEGMENT A here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdXslq6oFlU

There is much to learn about how human beings already are ecclectic in their makeup(conscience and creation revelation MEANS God exists, and he/she will be held "without excuse" if they deny that fact - Romans 1); and mankind will always be drawn to worship a Creator, and Satan knows this - and - being the master counterfeiter, he has helped mankind create god after god, demonination after denomination - and power hungry, pride filled, self-absorbed INTELLIGENT men who love to be seen in power and place take up leadership roles in everyone of them - and they lead would be believers AWAY from the Christ of the Bible - the Creator Himself(John 1:1).

And, God HATES that! - see: Nicolaitanism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE13LG2T_J4

Lastly; it is imperative that professing Christians beleive God preserved His Word - so - we can KNOW, and not be so easily deceived by false prophets and false apostles and false teachers who attack the flock as wolves in sheep's clothing.

Consistent with "narrow is the way ... and FEW there be that find it", is the CREATION account ... Acts 17, Mars Hill; Pauls said "preach the law to the Jew, and preach creation to the Gentiles" - for myself, I have decided personally, God is powerful enough to have done it ALL in 6 literal 24 hour days, less than 10,000 years ago[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szBTl3S24MY ] - and for mainline denominations to buy into evolution THEORY, and "millions of years", with "time" as their deity - that is unacceptable; and Christians ought to grow a spine, walk out of those churches for DENYING God's preserved Word, and BANKRUPT them.

Christians, Jews, Muslims(and other major religions); all predominately believe in ONE Supreme Being, who is GOOD, and wants peace - and - the nature and character and literal account of His personal dealings with His creation and mankind is a topic of conversation the WORLD over - and so - in America, we have freedom of religion to worship as our conscience dictates, and, we have freedom of SPEECH to argue religion, scripture, history, creation/evolution or ANYTHING we want in our search for the TRUTH ... and so ... beware of the Divide and Conquer game; Satan uses it to make us WAR with one another!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7edW7igYfg

Much to learn my friend, a lifelong journey indeed for each man, INDIVIDUALLY!

I hope this helps propel you into a yearn to learn MORE!

Peace Be to You!

I preach Christ Crucified

Christ was crucified for EVERYONE for God so loved the world! Christ did not die for a tiny group of people to go into Heaven, but died as a sin sacrifice once and for all people. He was the ransom for sin. He freely gave himself up to die. We as Christians must love our neighbor. That includes loving atheists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims and everyone as Christ loves us! God allows the sun to shine on the righteous and unrighteous right? Be perfect like your Father in Heaven.

May the LORD bless you and keep you
May the LORD make His face shed light upon you and be gracious unto you
May the LORD lift up His face unto you and give you peace
Follow me on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/Burning_Sirius

yes ... that is a very "sunny" perspective of God and...

...what Christ did...BUT...true Christlike love is telling people the TRUTH ... which is the part of the Bible people(namely mainstream America Christians, and European mockers of Christianity before us) want NOTHING to do with ... such as...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. No escaping that word "cannot"!

LOVE, LOVE, LOVE - the Beatles sang that to us in the 60's to stop the war - now their followers are the biggest BLIND warmongering voting block...

A Jew is but a person who subscribes to Judaism - that doesn't make them a DIRECT descendent of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob - so, what are the Ashkenazi Jews? Who, is "in the land"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgpu_4LiKLA

John Hagee, via Glenn Beck, would have us believe prophecy is unfolding before our eyes; and the authors of the Left Behind series(who were on Glenn Beck while he was on CNN years ago) would have us believe 1/3rd of the population of the WORLD(2 billion people) will go up in the Rapture - But Jesus said FEW; and Catholics ought to know, Mary is NOT a deity - and Christians shouldn't pray to her in "vain repetition like the heathen do, for they think they shall be heard for their much speaking!"[Matthew 6:7]

Is this true? It almost doesn't matter - the fact is, many Jews make fun of Christians because they think that the Jesus Christ most Americans pray to and worship is but a Santa Clause figure who gives us riches when we ask - many Muslims HATE us because(like the Crusades), our aggression against them is clearly racist(although couched/sold in the NECESSARY "enforcement" of some Judeo-Christian ethic over the WORLD) and the results seem to be for gain of spoil of natural resources.

Secondly, Jews and Christians should NOT be getting along as per the recorded persectution of the apostles in the book of Acts - or - subsequently Foxe's Book of Martyrs, which records what happens to Christ's followers when they tell ALL MEN of ALL NATIONS that God sent His only begotten Son, therefore: QUIT worshipping idols and gods of your own liking!

I hate to be harsh - but - the clock is running out for Christians to "get right" with the God they profess to know; and the truth is, "the love of the Father" is simply not in Biblically illiterate America Christians who feel it is our PURPOSE to align with Israel(the only "democracy" in the region) for our BEST interests...Jesus said "ye cannot serve God and mammon", so, the time for choosing is now; and I defy any Christian to justify our foreign policy of indiscriminate murder in the Middle East via the King James Bible and what Christ taught about love.

Our founders understood Christ's teachings, Ron Paul understands; but let's not sugar coat it as though our current ignorant Christian electorate is even capable of of "loving" atheists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims and everyone as Christ loves us when they do not know basic scripture and God's definition/usage of the word "double-minded"!

This nation is under SEVERE judgment, and spiritual blindness - for it's mile wide, inch deep, lukewarm "love" for Christ! Sorry! God gave us a brain for LEARNING, and we best use it - we are to seel wisdom, knowledge, and understanding - NOT feel-good-ism...

Have you even heard of the Gospel

You are saved by faith through grace. What are you touting?

Christian charities regularly served Pagans. In fact the practice was so prolific, that Julian the Apostate could not even persecute Christians at that point.

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

God forgives your sins all the time. Can you not be like God and forgive Jews or anyone else who persecutes you? Love them. Jesus gave a new commandment during Holy Week.

4 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Christ loved everyone, for we are all sinners. Christ died for those who have yet to repent and come to him. If Christ died for these people, what use is just loving our Christian brothers alone?

May the LORD bless you and keep you
May the LORD make His face shed light upon you and be gracious unto you
May the LORD lift up His face unto you and give you peace
Follow me on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/Burning_Sirius

my perspective is that Matthew 23...

...that blistering diatribe against the leaders of Judaism is part of the Gospel!!!

For all the preaching and self study I have absorbed to date, plus some American history from select 19th century sources that we USED to teach on our public schools and universities; it seems reasonable to me that the Creator would rather have us debating His attributes and demands upon sinners in order to gain salvation and begin on the road of sanctification, than be united in ERROR about "God loves everyone" and "we're all God's children" as long as we have a head knowledge of Jesus in human history .... that is NOT how Jesus treated the Scribes, Pharisees, Herodians, and Sadducees who sought to trap him through flattery as He spoke in.public and in the Temple.

Professing believers have a responsibility to know the truth, and expose error...also to discern and avoid certain men and certain teachings. Salvation is not a flu shot...once you enter the gate, you have to keep walking on the narrow path...

Calvinism

Pure and Simple. There is nothing you can do to please God. St Paul said so himself. You cannot boast about your works. I am Lutheran. I have a different theological view point. Also, I am LCMS, a very strict Church. Jesus said: "if you sinless you love less" to the Pharisees. The converse is true. If you sin more, you love more. I am a dirty rotten sinner who cannot come to God by my own power. God, through grace, gives my my faith. All good works I do are blessings of God the Father himself. Apart from him, I can do no good. The only way you lose salvation is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, to become an apostate.

How much do you contribute to your salvation, 5%?, 10% or is it half and half between you and God. I say it is 100% God. Because of this, I am humble in my own election.

Also, no one is destined to Hell. I believe in only single predestination. You know who the elect are, you do not know who is damned. That is why we must care for all of humanity, not just the elect.

May the LORD bless you and keep you
May the LORD make His face shed light upon you and be gracious unto you
May the LORD lift up His face unto you and give you peace
Follow me on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/Burning_Sirius

..."ye shall know them by their fruits"...

...and...

Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. [18] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

We preach the Gospel to them that don't know it, correct? Why?

Because without it, they are destined to hell!

We can be Christlike, as an example - and - we can share the Gospel with "all of humanity"; but - if they reject it, John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You respond to the Gospel by your own power because His Spirit bears witness with your spirit - by an act of the will you CHOOSE to repent, and turn from your sins to Him by faith ... from there(entering the narrow gate)...He will add grace upon grace, strength upon strength and GROW you from there; and THEN give you the "power" to reject sin when tempted(the unsaved DO NOT possess that "power") - all the while - you are still FREE to disobey, sin, forfeit rewards(silence the Holy Spirit; let you flesh win), and commit "good works in His name" that will be burned up as wood, hay, and stubble once inspected by Him in the future ALTHOUGH you're a saved Christian.

I recommend taking in that WHOLE John MacArthur sermon on Matthew 7:13-14 - I believe God is pretty rigid about His standards, and who is going to be allowed to enter into His kingdom - and that is based on knowledge and understanding; and a personal responsibility to respond and grow; not just walk around and "love" one another ... do not the evil know how to give good gifts(the appearance of "love")?

No where in Romans

is double predestination even advocated. You too are a miserable sinner. Everyone walks the wide path, but with God's grace, we can walk the path that pleases him.

May the LORD bless you and keep you
May the LORD make His face shed light upon you and be gracious unto you
May the LORD lift up His face unto you and give you peace
Follow me on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/Burning_Sirius

It would be good if you did a little bit more research..

It would be good if you did a little bit more research on the subject you are going to talk about. You speak as if you single handedly have all the facts, let me help you out here, you don't.

Everyone who has any salt about them abhor hatred toward anyone but you may want to get your facts straight about a few of the things you were writing about young man. Luther felt the way he did because was made aware of the Talmud. It was translated for him and when he found out what was going on behind close doors at his local synagog and what was being said about his "Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ," he made it clear that his feelings towards these people were not of those he considered to be a friend.

Pretty much how I feel about

Pretty much how I feel about Judaism, the religion, after reading parts of the Talmud, (compete copies are online), and learning about Kabbalism, Jewish witchcraft which many rabbis practice and which traditionally only rabbis over 40 learned.

Vile vile stuff.

This won't go away. Judaism is an anti-christ religion. It is also the only religion specifically mentioned by name that way in Revelation - ie the synagogue of Satan (chapter 3). Others may be there, but it's the only one named by name. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:7...)

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Though I have not read the Talmud

Firstly, every non-Christian religion could also be called 'anti-christ' in the same way.

Secondly, Jesus Christ was himself a zealous Jew. If you hate Jews, you hate Jesus Christ. It's as simple as that.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

I know of this too

Still, Jesus says to do good to those that hate you. Luther's response to the Jews has been taken out of context, and thus, we Lutherans must rebuke such interpretations and literature that promote anti-semitism. Love those that hate you. Luther was just a human being. He was limited in his love. We all are. In fact, Luther being human shows how God's grace can save everyone, including him!

If it sounds like I am speaking from authority, this was not my intention, the intention merely to rebuke Holocaust deniers and addressing my German heritage on the subject. Maybe the reason why I sound like I have authority is because maybe I am studying for the ministry.

May the LORD bless you and keep you
May the LORD make His face shed light upon you and be gracious unto you
May the LORD lift up His face unto you and give you peace
Follow me on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/Burning_Sirius

The fact

That there are such things as holocaust deniers baffles me to this day. How many survivors have to go on the news and say "Yeah, that shit happened" before people believe it? What is their reasoning to deny it?

When you mention all the

When you mention all the other genocides that have occurred in the last hundred years, it's hard to do. All those genocides were very much alike. They followed patterns.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Jews aren't the only semites

Using the term semite to only describe jews denies other semites their history and culture.

Im a human being and I condemn antisemitism

You shouldnt have to be affiliated with any religion to know dicrimination towards any group of people is flat out wrong. They bleed the same as how I bleed, beliefs are a non-issue.

Who cares about Israel? I'm

Who cares about Israel? I'm baptist and don't give two flips about them.

Southern Agrarian

You should

You should care about all people! That is what the Gospel teaches us. God saved everyone! So, we should pray for everyone.

May the LORD bless you and keep you
May the LORD make His face shed light upon you and be gracious unto you
May the LORD lift up His face unto you and give you peace
Follow me on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/Burning_Sirius

I care about everyone by

I care about everyone by leaving them the hell alone and let them choose their own fate. I can't help someone in a foreign country nor will I try. It is a progressive mind set to coddle and direct someone else's life if I don't feel they're steering it the right way. This chronic disease left over from the enlightenment period has spurred millions of busy bodies to try and cure mortal man of his ailments to 'progress' to Utopia. We are man, we are not God, we are inept beings unfit to lead others. We fail tremendously at "steering" the economy so I dare not try to tell someone how to run their life.

Southern Agrarian

Never implied any of that

I only imply good will among nations/peoples as that is traditionally what Christianity has promoted (though not perfectly I admit).

If you want to be charitable, go and work in said area yourself on your own (or donor's) dime. Do not rely on governments and so on.

May the LORD bless you and keep you
May the LORD make His face shed light upon you and be gracious unto you
May the LORD lift up His face unto you and give you peace
Follow me on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/Burning_Sirius

How is not caring about a

How is not caring about a country - modern Israel (created by the UN), not caring about people?

I care about Chinese people. I don't care at all for the communist Chinese country.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

How did your chosen deity save everyone?

There's a large portion of people that don't believe in invisible, imaginary characters in the sky and they're not looking to be saved by anyone, instead they're staunch individualists that want collectivists to just leave them alone.

God saves everyone sounds like "hope and change" to me. Simple catch phrases that manipulate masses of people.