8 votes

Respected evangelical who states it is a spiritual war

This is an email exchange with a friend who is also involved in the political process. So working her could bear some fruit in the future.

Her husband was a minister, detective, and now is a town judge in a very large suburb.

She doesn't want to hear anything about history concerning the Middle East, Palestine, and all that. I win that hands down, she immediately moves the debate to God and Israel as the chosen people. This is not a strong point of mine and took it as far as I could.

She stated that this is a spiritual war being played as a physical one.

My last question was, "How can this be a spiritual war if the Jewish people are still wandering?"

She answered, "A huge gathering occurred already in the 80's. They were ALL let go from ALL communist/socialist countries. It did not mean they all chose to leave and go back to Israel. Some are as stiff necked as some gentiles. So the wandering in the desert is over for those who CHOSE to believe. "

If they back Israel for the second coming of Jesus, then this must include the destruction of the Koran with the Muslims.

Spiritual war?

***

We will be holding a U.S. foreign policy forum in the future where conversation will probably lead to this, by their direction. So I would like to get some feedback on the thought process's of such a person for debating purposes.

Anyone feel like chiming in?



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99.9% Christians ............

mistakenly think that the Hebrews of the Bible - are the direct ancestors of the current Jews occupying Israel. If I was a betting man I would bet the WRONG people are gathering in the land of Israel.

Hey , a revived one.

I started reading and realized it was my thread.

Thanks for more input. The dispensationalists are a tough nut to crack.

btw

What's a 'dispensationalist'?

IMO

Untenable pre-conception such as a 'chosen people' in Judaism
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/chosen_p...
or 'chosen religion' with Islam
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/119792/the-chosen...
(or even a 'chosen savior' in Christianity)
http://www.examiner.com/article/christianity-101-what-does-i...
is the ideological source of conflict within the Middle East.

Until these biases are dissolved, I see no peace unfortunately within the near future

The marketing to all

The marketing to all religions that Christians should support Israel and the Jews is another deception. The bought and paid for Evangelists promoting Israel is nauseating.

Supposedly, Armageddon is the war that will be fought between those that believe in Jesus and those that don't. The only people that do not believe in Jesus are the Jews - even Muslims believe in Jesus (except they believe there were other prophets too).

I do believe in spiritual warfare

but it also can be used to back any agenda someone wishes. If someone wishes to interpret the complex goings on in the Middle East to support their theological agenda, they will and you can't talk them out of it.

I do know why the 80's is significant in this. There were networks of people in the 80's who were sure Christ was returning in '88 because that's 40 years after the state of Israel was founded. When that didn't happen, they didn't just throw their associations out the window. (There was significant overlap between the population of these networks and those who bought into or profited from the Health and Wealth Gospel that began to spring up about that time.) They re-fitted their theology to keep re-interpreting Middle East events. I'm sure she's figured out how her reasoning behind this spiritual warfare philosophy is rock-solid to where she has to back Israel no matter what, just like various other iterations of that retro-fitting has worked it out going back to the mid-80's.

I'm not sure if there really was a gathering in the 80's or if there were just a lot of Americans watching immigration in Israel due to the theological significance that had been recently emphasized regarding immigration of Hebrews to Israel. Bits of footage of immigrants disembarking their planes would be viewed in a very sentimental way through that lens. At first, it was viewed as the rest returning before the return of Christ in '88 and I guess at some point it was interpreted as the countdown clock re-starting for the next 40 year period.

If you want to engage this, you might start with figuring out if that gathering in the 80's was a true and significant spike in immigration or a true emptying of Jewish populations from other countries or if it was just the perception due to droves of Americans watching the immigration situation in Israel with bated breath.

Defend Liberty!

It didn't happen?

.

The spike in immigration in the '80's?

I don't know. I just know from the vantage point I had in the '80's, from my side of the glass watching American TV evangelists and over-hearing deacons and relatives exchanging pamphlets, that even if there wasn't a spike in immigration, there was huge incentive to let rumors fly that there was. At that time, it was interpreted a different way, I'm just now hearing this new interpretation.

So I'm suggesting to investigate if it really happened, not suggesting the outcome of the investigation. If it didn't happen, it would be something to present if the OP intends to engage in debate. There are other points to engage the debate on, but the basis of the woman's argument seems to be interpreting that immigration spike as the "a generation after the Jews return" countdown clock re-starting and is a much simpler argument than dealing with the points that spring from there. The rest of the debate is longer and more involved, but becomes unnecessary if the basis of the woman's argument doesn't pan out so it's worth a look.

Defend Liberty!

Choose Better Friends

who are able and willing to understand and communicate in a rational way with strong loving feelings to all living creatures (including humans).

The basic problem is that one believes that everything is real, and thus everything is treated as such.
---Kalu Rinpoche

Refer to The Master

The Master, Jesus, is greater than all the prophets, as your stubborn friend will have to agree. The four gospels tell of his life on earth. The antipathy of Jews toward Him are a major part of every single one of the gospels and Jews are recorded as being instrumental in His death. Not all, of course. The apostles, who became Christians, were among his most trusted inner circle. Does He call the Jews the chosen people and call on his followers to support them in war? No, he doesn't. Or talk about the restoration of Israel? No.

Instead he tells the Pharisees, leaders among the Jews, who are still leaders of Jews today: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44).

Your friend will be less confused if she studies The Master's words and His life through the four gospels. They're short and easy to learn, and the most important books in the Bible.

But many people don't want to learn the truth. Your friend may be among them.

Sorry Maxie, I grant that the hypocrites among the Pharisees....

deservedly received the strongest condemnation. But there were at least two notables among them, Joseph of Aramathea and Nicodemus, who were disciples of Jesus, and there may have been more. In fact, in my post, http://www.dailypaul.com/280083/jesus-christ-victor-over-the..., I reference a Pharisee that Jesus commends as not being far from the Kingdom of Heaven.

Both the Jewish leaders and the Roman's designated authority, Pilate, were responsible for his death. But the average Jew likely would have been keeping the feast, in his home, at least once Pilate agreed to set one person free. The folks who stuck around were likely cronies of the ruling Sadducees, also had a grudge against Jesus. As for the common Jewish people, Luke describes their reaction to his death this way: (Luke 23:46-48)

And all the crowds who came together for this spectacle, when they observed what had happened, began to return, beating their breasts. (I.e. as a traditional sign of mourning or contrition)

Even one of the Centurions figured it out:

Now when the centurion saw what had happened, he began praising God, saying, “Certainly this man was innocent.”

Did Jesus talk about the restoration of Israel? No? Oh Yes He did! (You were right on the first one, but not this. Jesus does not call on his followers to support the wars, especially not unjust ones, that I can wholeheartedly agree on)

As to whether Jesus promised an earthly kingdom to Israel, he actually does, three times: (the third time, indirectly)

And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

“You are those who have stood by Me in My trials;
and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22: 28-30

The third place is less explicit, but the three together imply that the Resurrection did not complete everything the Law and the Prophets said Messiah would do:

Acts 1:6
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

Act 1:7

He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; (note, he is not contradicting his own statements earlier, he is simply saying the times and seasons are the Father's 'jurisdiction'.)

Thank you for being open minded enough to read this lengthy comment.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Test

.

Spiritual war

is an oxymoron.

War is driven by ego and it's the ultimate insanity of the ego.

I'll never understand how anyone can profess themselves a follower of the Prince of Peace and be so trigger happy.

I'll never understand how anyone can proclaim God created everything and everyone only to kill part of His creation in His name.

Actually I do understand how. Fear is a great motivator.

Miamisburg, Montgomery County, Ohio

here's a tip

don't waste time debating collectivist crazy people who believe in Spiritual war and invisible sky gods.

Official Daily Paul BTC address: 16oZXSGAcDrSbZeBnSu84w5UWwbLtZsBms
Rand Paul 2016

Tell her to google "Khazars"

if she still believes the "chosen people lie".

And get her to read: The Syanagouge of Satan" and "The 13th Tribe".

http://www.amazon.com/Synagogue-Satan-Andrew-Carrington-Hitc...

http://www.amazon.com/Thirteenth-Tribe-Kazar-Empire-Heritage...

Pastor Steve Anderson

The pastor who was tazed by the border patrol a few years ago, (and now tells them to pound sand at their border checkpoints) has two excellent sermons on "Gods elect" and the "commonwealth of Israel". I recommend listening and using his sermons for counterpoints to the Israel first crowd and the Zionists. Good stuff!

http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/052310p.mp3

http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/071011p.mp3

He's also got some

sermons that'll quickly lose him credibility as a contributor to a debate.

Defend Liberty!

You could tell her that, as

You could tell her that, as recently as 100 years ago, and in eras where people were much "better" Christians by almost any measure than most are today; few even knew what was going on between nominal Jews and Muslims in the Middle East, and fewer still cared.

So, the fact that the telly tube allows any and all busybodies to stick their noses into the businesses of people halfway around the world, does not mean they have to, or even that they ought to, top remain good Christians.

Why must backing the second

Why must backing the second coming of Christ include destruction of the Muslims? If Christ2, for some bizarre reason, has it in for Muslims (who, after all, are descendents of Abraham, and whose laws are awfully similar to Torah), can't he deal with them himself? Where is it written that he must rely on a bunch of taxfeeding, warmongering neocons half a planet away from Israel?

We watched so many good documentaries that people

have listed in these comments.

Henry Kissinger

said "Israel will not exist in 10 years" He should know, he has been working on the inside Agenda for years. The US will likely not exist either.

The Third WW we lose and get divided up to other countries. IMO

Prepare & Share the Message of Freedom through Positive-Peaceful-Activism.

He probably knows as well as

He probably knows as well as anyone. The problem is, he is rarely found speaking to inform. Instead, he tends to say what he says, to get others to act in certain ways. So, when he says Israel won't exist in 10 years, there is no way of knowing whether that is him prognosticating, or him trying to scare Americans into some crazy Middle Eastern war.

Your right

these fellows are very deceptive so we have to watch to see what comes next.

Prepare & Share the Message of Freedom through Positive-Peaceful-Activism.

my "chime in" is . .

The God of the Bible is pretty logical, IMO, form what I read in the Bible.
My arguments are:

Get away from the binary discussion that hannitty and oreilly love.
that is -
Either you HATE and want to kill anyone opposing Israel
OR
You hate and want to kill Israel
Those are NOT the only two choices for rational humans.
I can see Israel as an ally without supporting her IF she is warmongering. I can choose NOT to have my kids die for her in wars.

Here's a HUGE logic flaw that these people dont see.
The God of the Bible is infaluable and hung the universe in place in an intricate balance of gravity, distance, etc., very possibly through some sort of evolution.
He levels kingdom after kingdom with a flick of his finger
BUT
by golly he REALLY NEEDS the GOP and the US to actively help and sacrifice for Israel.

God had a promise with Abraham
BUT
Abraham's descendents hated and despised God's son.
Christ made pronouncements against the Jewish leaders of his time that would make the GOP and neocons crucify Christ TODAY.
you seriously think the Jewish leadership of Christ's time was MORE corrupt than the one their now?? REALLY?? ahahahahahah!!! thats funny!

I worship Christ.
I follow Christ.
Christ said, "you shall know them by their fruits"
I look at the fruit of the US and Israel against poor people. nuff said.
Have her google and watch the youtube video "occupation".
google rachel corrie video and have her watch that.

Lastly, only spend a little time on this.
If after seeing some other information on this she still is not opening her mind, then she's not looking to learn anything.
she'd probably kill part of her family if they cursed Israel. She should move there!

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

ill read this

later

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Explain Zionism

She needs to understand that these Zionist leaders oppose God and their way is destruction, that they do not represent the Jewish people, they only hide behind them. Explain that Orthodox Jews oppose Israel and point her to the Neturei Karta

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

Also, regarding the "God's chosen" argument, quote this to her

"God that made the world and all things herein... and hath made of one blood all nations of men... be it known therefore unto you that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it... What then? Is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also... for the promise, that he should be of the world, was not to Abraham, and to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith... One God and father of all who is above, all ...let brotherly love continue... For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ; whose end is destruction..."

-Acts 17:24-26

Also, be sure to steer clear of Old Testament arguments. If she tries to quote from it, point out that Christians are no longer under the OT because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

I wish you luck.

Thanks on the luck.

She does quote much from the Old.

I'm sure she does.

The OT is the source of much of her confusion, because it has been tampered with. Passages in the OT have been altered to make God into a vengeful entity who commands "his people" to go forth to conquer and "destroy utterly" all other nations. This is the doctrine of the Zionists, not the all-loving God that Jesus spoke of.

Compare this quote from Deuteronomy (it is also in the Torah) with the one in my above comment

"And the Lord spake unto me, saying… This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee …And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it …And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them… to drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance… And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee, thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them; neither shalt thou make marriages with them… For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth..."

The question is Who or What is "Israel"?

The Christian Zionists who are drawn from most of the evangelical churches believe that Genesis 12:3 applies to the people who form the nation know to the world as "Israel". Therefore they believe this nation is under divine protection and that everyone must bless this nation or be under the curse of God.

They also now believe I am told that these people have a covenant with God that is an everlasting covenant which ensures their salvation as a nation apart from their accepting Jesus Christ as their Saviour. The reasoning they use to prove this is based upon the Genesis scripture above and a speech given by the Pharisee Gamaliel to the Sanhedrin recorded in the book of Acts 5:34-39. Inasmuch as the people we know as the Jews have survived for two thousand years after being driven out of Palestine in 135 A.D. it is believed that they must be under the protection of God. Their success in establishing their State again in Palestine also appears to be supported by God. So on the one hand they have several scriptures to support their contention that God has His hand on the Jewish State and on the other the apparent fulfilment of scripture in the existence of this State against all odds.

This is the strong delusion that was foretold to occur in the last days and it is unlikely that anyone would be able to convince a Christian Zionist that they are wrong for so long as God retains them in their blindness. I was a Christian Zionist until the late 1990's then was gradually brought to see the flaws in that belief. This was however an act of grace and I am fully aware of the strength of the delusion that grips the evangelical churches at this time.

Probably the only thing that will break this delusion is the destruction of Jerusalem and the nation of Israel. It is tragic that so many Christians have contributed to pay for many Jews to make aliyah to Israel and will now see all those people killed in the coming war. The ordinary Israeli is just as blind as the ordinary American to the machinations of their government and are kept in a constant state of paranoia by them in order to further their political agenda.

How this will happen cannot be known in particulars but that it will be a nuclear attack is very likely. It is also very probable that the attack will come from America itself. This suggests to me that it will be proven that Israel was complicit in the attacks on 9/11 and planned them in order to provoke the very reaction that took place. 9/11 has been the lynchpin of American foreign policy since 2001. Everything that has happened since then including thousands of American casualties, oppressive inhumane legislation and a crumbling economy can all be laid at the door of the perpetrator of that act. This is why I believe that it is very possible that America will destroy Israel.

http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/the-strug...

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

We are scanning the chapters in your link.

This is a nice simple read. For example, Ch.11, concerning the Gestapo and such, do you consider this information as fact? This is really heavy material.

We have a former Christian/Zionist who will be on our panel. Since you are too, that has good credibility.

Your final conclusion displays what you determined as the futility in trying to bring this sect around.