8 votes

Respected evangelical who states it is a spiritual war

This is an email exchange with a friend who is also involved in the political process. So working her could bear some fruit in the future.

Her husband was a minister, detective, and now is a town judge in a very large suburb.

She doesn't want to hear anything about history concerning the Middle East, Palestine, and all that. I win that hands down, she immediately moves the debate to God and Israel as the chosen people. This is not a strong point of mine and took it as far as I could.

She stated that this is a spiritual war being played as a physical one.

My last question was, "How can this be a spiritual war if the Jewish people are still wandering?"

She answered, "A huge gathering occurred already in the 80's. They were ALL let go from ALL communist/socialist countries. It did not mean they all chose to leave and go back to Israel. Some are as stiff necked as some gentiles. So the wandering in the desert is over for those who CHOSE to believe. "

If they back Israel for the second coming of Jesus, then this must include the destruction of the Koran with the Muslims.

Spiritual war?


We will be holding a U.S. foreign policy forum in the future where conversation will probably lead to this, by their direction. So I would like to get some feedback on the thought process's of such a person for debating purposes.

Anyone feel like chiming in?

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Barracuda_Trader I appreciate your testimony

My dearest being raised Catholic also received the Holy Ghost at a charismatic youth camp. He said it was as simple as raising his hand when the youth leader asked who wanted to receive God's spirit. God, then led him into all truth regarding salvation as the scriptures promise.

The scriptures make a difference in the "gift" of tongues vs. the gift of the Holy Ghost which all those who are born again must receive. Not everyone must speak "in the church" in tongues. But they may pray this way alone.

The Bible speaks of "diverse" tongues. When someone receives the gift of the Holy Ghost, they speak in a language as the spirit gives utterance. This will be a language that they can pray in -"building up your most Holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost." That doesn't mean necessarily that they will operate in the "gift of tongues." Does that sound like your understanding as well or different?

I am for peace: but when I speak, they are for war. Ps 120:7
Better to be divided by truth than united in error.
"I am the door." -Jesus Christ

I also don't agree with the new pope stating

a few years back that if you don't know Christ you can't go to heaven.

I see it as, when people meet their maker, they will be judged on how they treated other people. Not on their stated oath to God.

I don't accept that hundreds of years ago, some indigenous people, who never hurt anybody, and didn't know Christ, won't have eternal happiness, while someone who was born again but did hurt people, will.

Can you prove that Pope Benedict

said that those who don't know Jesus can't go to heaven. As a cradle Catholic who has studied the faith I have never heard that.

I'm going to do a little research in the Catholic Catechism and may get back to you.

Okay, here it is staight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which Pope Benedict would never contradict.

Section 1260: "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."

Minnesota Mary

To prove that, I would have to do some research.

Which I never thought I would have a reason to do so. lol

I recall hearing that a few years ago?

You probably will beat me to it. If you do, please post. Thank you.

I'd like to suggest

Attending RENEW, Rites of Inniation for Catholic Adults, and purchase a copy of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church". It's the most profound book I have ever read. I attend Bible Study weekly, and go to confession, I love confession, at least twice a month.

I love being Catholic, I Adore my Church.

I was baptized Catholic when I was 18 months, though neither parent was Catholic. My Father was an Ayn Rand Objectivist, raised pagen and my Mom was raised Baptist, but my Father hated God with a passion, so she was unable to go to Church. None of us were able to go to Church. I rebelled as a teen and began going. I've attended many denominations, and explored Eastern Religion, occult and am finally home with my Catholic Church.. it never ceases to amaze me.

Mark 9: 38 - 43, 45, 47 - 48

38 John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us."
39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is for us.
41 For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.
42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

That's not how Catholic's see it

We are taught that it is not by good deeds one goes to heaven. What is good is subjective. One may think something is good, or it feels good to them, but another may not agree.

It is by faith one enters into heaven

“By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). - Ephesians 2: ...

It's not just Catholics who believe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y87VWzie0W8

Not faith alone...

"You see, then, that it is by our actions that we are put right with God, and not by our faith alone." James 2:24

Minnesota Mary

Thank you

Actions that JUSTIFY our faith.

"My answer is,

'Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions.' Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe--and tremble with fear." James 2:18-19.

Minnesota Mary

I believe in the trinity

God Almight, the Holy Spirit and Lord Jesus Christ.

Tomorrow, as I do every Monday, I will go to feed nearly 100 people, all they can eat a lunch of organic vegetable and green salad, fruit salad, rice pilaf with sausage and vegetable stew, garlic bread, home made chocolate cake, brownies, fruit juice, milk, and coffee. After I cook, I will wash pots and pans, clean the kitchen, sweep and mop the floors with very little help and it will cost me to do this. I will have available donations of blankets, clothing, jackets, baby items, toiletries, information about where they can find a free room, gas coupons and some chow and water for the dogs.

Donations are welcome.

This does not include the work I do for my Church, or for my community as a volunteer who pays to be a volunteer with the hospital, historical society, and my Grange.

Maybe God will find mercy for me, as I do have FAITH in God more than in my actions, KNOWING I am a sinner, without even trying.

I am told by many people that they are very grateful for my services and that if everyone did half of what I do the world would be a better place. I also raise chickens, organic pastured hormone free and give my eggs to charity and make many contributions to organizations seeking help.

I do what I do because I Adore God and love people.

I think you will find people

I think you will find people who turn that around, and try to have actions without faith. 'What does it matter if I don't believe in Jesus Christ and repent. I do good things'.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

That is true.


john 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I take that to mean that...

Jesus is the gatekeeper. He knows the content of every heart, and he decides who gets into heaven and who does not.

Minnesota Mary

Actually, you'll be judged on

Actually, you'll be judged on how you treated your maker, in a manner of speaking.

Think about it. You know Jesus Christ died on the cross, the most painful death possible, for your sins and to give you eternal life - John 3:16 posted above, and you reject it. That's treating your maker in the worst way possible.

God's love is perfect, ours is not. That is how we are saved, when we take him at the cross.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Where do you take it that I reject

Jesus death on the cross?

I didn't. It's a response to

I didn't. It's a response to how you will be judged - by how you treat others from your message, by giving you a counter example that there isn't just other men, but also how you treat God (like worship God).

It was based off of thinking of: Matthew 22.
"Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.


I have been working on this subject matter for about 5 days now, and it has become overwhelming.

Thanks for your input.

I make sense.

So if my sense is rejected, I just repented, and now everything is ok.

My friend responded a few times. I never mentioned RP in our email exchange but she brought him in to play a couple times.

Am I getting her right?:

The Bible is better than the Koran because the Koran tells to hurt, but the Bible doesn’t, so it is better.

The Rapture Christians do not have issue with people getting hurt as long as the Bible is being satisfied.

So for whatever happens in physical reality, people really only have to say, ‘that what is happening now, contributes in the long run to satisfying the Bible.’ This is what to tell people concerning the Middle East, now that the wars are paralleled with another? Give them the physical reality and the spiritual reality?

What the Rapture Christians are really doing is

self fulfilling prohecy. Ask them to show you any line in the New Testament calling for fighting for a piece of real estate in the Middle East. Jesus said, "Blessed are the Peacemakers" not Blessed are the war mongers.

Also, ask them what Jesus said about the Temple.

Minnesota Mary

Something like that is found in the Scofield reference bible in

the reamrks section in some of the Old Testament passages.

Hey, I'm learning something. lol

Need to get a hold of one of the bibles.

The Rapture people...

are trying to fulfill their interpretations of Old Testament prophesies regarding Christ's coming by forcing God's hand through our dangerous and irresponsible foreign policy in the Middle East.

Minnesota Mary

I didn't down vote you but am

confused by your usage of "heritage" here. What do you mean specifically by "heritage"? I'm having a duh moment.

Freedom is not: doing everything you want to.
Freedom is: not having to do what you don't want to do.
~ Joyce Meyer

I just mean they are Jewish

I just mean they are Jewish but Christians not Judaism believers.

I said heritage instead of people just because it seemed more encompensing. I didn't want the religion Judaism go be confused with ethnic group.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

FYI - most of the people that

FYI - most of the people that vote me down will be non-Jewish people for saying most of the non-Jewish people are probably not saved either.

Narrow is the way.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Honey you don't have to give me that'n

I actually quoted that scripture to the same person whom I'm also talking about in this post further down and quoted it just !yesterday! regarding the OT "picture of two Messiahs" that the early OT rabbis agreed on (we can see now as 1st and 2nd coming at this point in history):

Not to confuse, but to show these specific two together =

The "four carpenters" mentioned in Zech. ii. 3(A. V. i. 20) are the Messiah ben David ('conquering hero'), the Messiah ben Joseph ('suffering servant'), Elijah, and Melchizedek (Suk. 52a).

Weird how some of us are traveling in the same type consciousness at the same time.

Freedom is not: doing everything you want to.
Freedom is: not having to do what you don't want to do.
~ Joyce Meyer

What if the WWII Holocaust Jews were used as Zionism Fodder?

How about this one...as of late, I mean just in the past week, I have come to consider that perhaps the holocaust was a false flag. No, I do NOT mean that 6 million Jewish people were not horribly exterminated. What I mean is that it was allowed to happen, was pushed to happen, maybe even made to happen so that the Zionists would be granted Israel as a homeland.
Mind you, my whole life I have been supportive of Israel as a Born Again Christian.
I do not know if I am right, but it seems that some very devout looking Jewish people met with Ahmadinejad. I watched a video of that meeting here: http://www.dailypaul.com/256465/ahmadinejad-embraces-the-jew... and the Jewish men meeting with Ahmadinejad said something about their leaders being killed in the Holocaust leaving the Jewish people subject to following Zionism. That was an eye opener for me. That sent me on a investigative history hunt (probably a weak one, but one none the less). Those Jewish men in that video did the kissy kissy with Ahmadinejad and it all looked real and sincere. Maybe it was all a show? I don’t know but they also gave him a big silver bowl attributing his “sweetness.” I also looked at the website below that video http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/ and saw more information regarding the sellout of the East European Jews by the Zionists:

“These treacherous Zionist leaders betrayed their own flesh and blood. Zionism was never an option for Jewish salvation. Quite the opposite, it was a formula for human beings to be used as pawns for the power trip of several desperadoes. A perfidy! A betrayal beyond description!”

Here is a dot I am trying to connect: Some people say Ahmadinejad said the Holocaust did not happen or something to that effect. I wonder if his words were twisted and instead he was saying the Holocaust is a fraud. (Not that it didn’t happen, but could have been prevented, or was actually made to happen, or there were ulterior motives.) It seems to me as a child all I ever heard about were the 6 million Jews that were killed (not making light of that subject at all). I suppose that could have been to promote Zionism? I remember saying something to my husband earlier this year that there were a lot more people killed in WWII than 6 million Jews. Why doesn’t anyone talk about the others? What is the purpose of Zionism? Is it part of the Hegelian dialect?

In addition to Zionism, I think the Jews were killed for their gold too. I watched a video called Banking with Hitler and the inception of the IBS (it was the first international bank) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ardr1MAgtmQ . I saw piles of eye glasses and teeth that were melted down. As if they were harvesting a crop. That gold went thru that International Bank. When Hitler took over a country the gold from that country was transferred thru the IBS to Germany…I wonder where all that gold went after the war?

Antony Sutton as an author was also recommended to me. His online readings were too long so I looked on YouTube. I think perhaps, if one can get past the 1970/80 get up in this video series, some clues are held:

Same interviewer again at a later date: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEVOIO4TbZs&feature=related

Sutton again here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sCpsq55uic (Professor Antony Sutton: Wall Street & the rise of Hitler 1)

I also watched some of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29QV_GNMt3Q from the daughter of a member of the Skull and Bones, Charlotte Iserbyt, who was also working in Washington under President Reagan in the Department of Education she also speaks again here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYNSXJbdchc and mentioned Major Jordan who I listened speak here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCiylpzR60U

Mr. Sutton spoke to the Hegelian conflict used by the Order.

Here is my premise
Eastern Europe was raped by the bankers during WWII who then used the Hegelian conflict of communism and capitalism to control world affairs afterward thru a false cold war. The Holocaust was used by Zionists to create the nation of Israel. The new Hegelian conflict is radical Muslim Terrorists and Zionism to lead world affairs as the United States are becoming Sovietized. So the question is what is the Thesis…where are they, the money brokers, going with these direct opposite conflicts?

It concerns me that there may be very few who are looking out for the best interests of the United States as people are caught up in both opposing sides of the conflict, which IMO have been orchestrated to cause such confusion and delusion while perhaps the raping of the Middle East is accomplished.

How is that for a far-fetched theory? And what bothers me most of all if this is true is that “Christians” have also been used to give moral support or to believe that Zionism is a good thing because of their love for the Israeli people and knowledge that God gave that land to Abraham.. But according to that website given above (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/ged... ), the European Jews where used as fodder to prepare the way for the re-birthing of the Jewish Nation who according to them was not supposed to be accomplished by man, but by God. Those Jews against Zionism say that the rebirthing of Israel was manmade and that they were not supposed to reposes the land until the Messiah granted it to them: “…Only through complete repentance will the Almighty alone, without any human effort or intervention, redeem us from exile. This will be after G-d will send the prophet Elijah and Moshiach who will induce all Jews to complete repentance. At that time there will be universal peace.”

May God have mercy upon us as we live in these sordid times. I do not know if my trail of connecting dots is correct, but I highly suspect that it may be.


What we must be concerned about the most

is the response. The holocaust happened, and we can't change that. There are always going to be opportunists who say, "Never let a good crisis go to waste." What better crisis than the heart-breaking deaths of 6 million non-combatants of the same heritage? The motives vary, including the idea that eliminating all of the Jews would force the second coming of Christ and bring about the rapture. The motives don't matter as much as the result, which was the wholesale murder of millions. The result matters but is separate from the response, which is -both- the establishment of a Jewish state by peaceful and positive terms and the destruction of Israel and surrounding countries by warmongers.

From what I've learned, and you may have found out something to the contrary in your research, the original creation of Israel was in generally standard terms. Jews bought land (and you're right, the Jews have had a lot of gold) in Palestine, the numbers of Jews and Arabs living in the same country became troublesome, and it was divided for reasons of sovereignty and order. Now, as for the question of Zionism, the desire to have your own land is one thing. The belief that you already own something that belongs to someone else is another. Among Zionists, this is a very divisive issue. In my opinion, the way in which Israel first came to be was perfectly normal and natural in the course of history. What I think is the most destructive thing to the nation of Israel, the nations surrounding her, and to Christians and Jews around the world is violent aggressive Zionism. Leaked videos and memos seem to me to prove a lust by the current leadership in Israel for a total annihilation of her neighbors, using fake threats (a drawing of a bomb), false flags, and MSM sleight of hand.

Add to that the supposed Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, which many people who claim to have been Illuminati have said was in fact the Illuminati plan, and you have a reason for a whole lot more people to hate Israel and to think that Jews are up to no good. So now we have a nation that may be perfectly legitimate, a corrupt leadership, money going to fund both sides of a conflict that we pretend to want to end, other groups claiming to be Zionists so as to deflect blame, and a mixture of nonviolent and violent Zionists.

The answer to all of this, regardless what the motives, regardless whether the holocaust was intended to warm people to the idea of a Jewish state, is to seek out and defend the truth, stop foreign aid, promote peace and free trade, and spread the ideas of liberty. In addition to that, we as Christians and Jews are especially responsible to point out those who claim to be Christians and Jews who are committing atrocities.

I'm sorry that I don't have a lot of information regarding the backstory to the holocaust, but from what you've said, it sure seems plausible that it may have either been triggered or hyped by those with a violent Zionist agenda.

Michael Nystrom's fists can punch through FUD.

I think the best approach

is to keep emphasizing "Love". Don't try to pry them away from supporting Israel as this will only put them into a defensive stance. Jesus said to "love your enemies". He was talking to "Jewish" people when he said that so Israel doesn't get a free pass. Self Defense is one thing, pre-emptive strikes are another. Bombing someone because you "think" they are going to do something is just flat out wrong. Even if they have said they are going to do it, war still isn't justified.

The other advantage you have as a Libertarian thinker is to emphasize "individuality". While Evangelicals can hate the religion of Islam and consider it "evil", they would deny hating the individual Muslim, whom they would consider to be blinded. One tactic to use would be to point out the thousands of innocent lives that would be taken by war on an entire nation. If they truly are deceived by their religious and political leaders, why should they die because of war perpetrated by those leaders?