8 votes

Respected evangelical who states it is a spiritual war

This is an email exchange with a friend who is also involved in the political process. So working her could bear some fruit in the future.

Her husband was a minister, detective, and now is a town judge in a very large suburb.

She doesn't want to hear anything about history concerning the Middle East, Palestine, and all that. I win that hands down, she immediately moves the debate to God and Israel as the chosen people. This is not a strong point of mine and took it as far as I could.

She stated that this is a spiritual war being played as a physical one.

My last question was, "How can this be a spiritual war if the Jewish people are still wandering?"

She answered, "A huge gathering occurred already in the 80's. They were ALL let go from ALL communist/socialist countries. It did not mean they all chose to leave and go back to Israel. Some are as stiff necked as some gentiles. So the wandering in the desert is over for those who CHOSE to believe. "

If they back Israel for the second coming of Jesus, then this must include the destruction of the Koran with the Muslims.

Spiritual war?

***

We will be holding a U.S. foreign policy forum in the future where conversation will probably lead to this, by their direction. So I would like to get some feedback on the thought process's of such a person for debating purposes.

Anyone feel like chiming in?



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Personally

I consider "respected evangalical" a contradiction in terms. Like a Jumbo Shrimp.

lol

That's a good one.

This was my speculation. In

This was my speculation. In fact, im pretty sure this is how "they" view politics. This is my answer to this, as ive stated before in other comments/posts:

Israel exists not because of its mililtary might, or strategic lands, or because of the wisdom of its leaders. As biblical history shows, Israel and the Jewish people exist because of God's grace. No amount of military involvement, even the U.S. as an ally, will help Israel if it wasn't God's will to do so.

It is arrogant and completely wrong to think supporting Israel under the auspices of supporting/defending God and/or His chosen people somehow justifies the lying, cheating, over-taxing, and endless wars.

Flip the perspective around and suggest that perhaps the U.S. is NOT on the "right" side. Just because we have citizens who attend christian churches and call ourselves christians DOES NOT mean said attenders are christian. It does not mean we live in a christian nation (it is far from it).

Tell Her to Watch this Video

by We Hold These Truths and Strait Gate Ministries. You must let her know her sole depends on learning the Truth of the Teachings of Christ! http://vimeo.com/29901084
Also, ask her if she knows what Judaism really is all about? Does she know it is not only the following of the Torah/OT, but also the books of the Babylonian Talmud (the oral writings of the Pharisees). And, in Israel, the Talmud is the superior book of worship. Here, is an excellent overview of the Teachings of the Talmud, for you to learn and to show her how great these Israelis trully think about Christ. http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html
Ask her what Christ said in Matthew 16:6, and if she believes we are in the End Times, what Rev 2:9 and 3:9 state.

We watched the video. Thanks for more info.

.

I will look up and download those videos

We watched a good one recommended below, last night.

Damn, 5 years of learning Liberty and now I have to learn strategies concerning faith. Who would have known ...

you're not alone--

we deal with people like this all the time; we don't see our friends as much because of it--

once people have been led down Scofield's primrose path and been brainwashed by the American MSM . . .

there's not much that can be done--

I fear, and yes, it is genuine fear, that the only way these people will wake up will be to suffer war themselves and see--

the damage--

I don't want that--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

I totally agree with you.

Relationships with some of my Christian friends have become strained over this too.

It is very hard to get people to remove the scales from their eyes and clean out their ears.

Minnesota Mary

Yes

I've known far too many otherwise good-natured religous people turn evil over the ME wars. Some of the bigotry that comes from these people is nothing short of horrifying, like talking about how we should kill every Muslim on Earth to prevent a "second holocaust". I can do all the mental gymnastics I want and still fail to make any sense of that line of thought.

So, all i do now is warn them; "When you die, your God will remember you using His name to perpetuate murder. What do you think that'll mean for you?"

A signature used to be here!

I'm the only one in my family who isn't Christian, but

I figured out a simple argument to use against them when they try to justify wars in the middle east.

In the Bible it states Israel will be one of the last standing nations and that it has God's divine protection. To dispute that by promoting warmongering is to dispute God's own word and is therefore blasphemous.

I've never seen this argument fail yet. Hilariously, I don't believe a word of it, but everyone else eats it up.

Here is what I do...

I offer to give anyone $1,000.00 if they can produce even one verse in the New Testament where Jesus or any of the writers of the epistles advocate for going to war for the land.

So far no one has come forward with a verse, because there isn't one.

Minnesota Mary

1 John 4:18

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Who's "Perfect Love"? = Jesus
Has this person been "perfected" (in as much as humanly possible) in Jesus? HA!

Freedom is not: doing everything you want to.
Freedom is: not having to do what you don't want to do.
~ Joyce Meyer

And I was just thinking how

And I was just thinking how well that thought goes with Jesus Christ's atoning death at the cross, and how his perfect love drives out our fear and gives us eternal life after reading that.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Wow see what I mean Max?

We better quit this or we'll weird each other out ;)

How very "Yom Kippurish" of you :)

Freedom is not: doing everything you want to.
Freedom is: not having to do what you don't want to do.
~ Joyce Meyer

egapele's picture

Names need to be named

and those people need to be held accountable for those kinds of opinions in the court of public opinion, not from the congregation surrounding the pulpit.

Who are they?

You mean my source?

Man, I can't do that. I feel awkward actually quoting her like this. It doesn't make me feel strong to do it.

I believe this is the sentiment of maybe most of the TeaGOP'rs and 912'rs in my area.

I just spoke at an event on why not to vote for romney. It was not the typical 'he's for this and not that', it was deep and with strategy. I saw one person shaking their head and after when chatting with folks, that woman came right out and said she is pro-Israel and denounced all the anti-war people. Had the same thing at another event.

My goal is this. Foreign policy is the great divide. I believe it is time to get "them" to steer the topic in the Israel direction. I believe I can do this without looking like I am bashing Christians or Jewish people. In an open forum, (we plan to have more than one so it builds), they just might reveal themselves as, well, ... I am not sure what to call it. Exposed seems to heavy.

It is not to hurt or actually discredit but get some naked reality to our situation.

egapele's picture

You're right, sorry for putting

you on the spot. I saw this in another thread earlier, it's the best I have to offer in the way of advice:

Submitted by PAFFVINTAGE on Thu, 09/27/2012 - 09:09. Permalink
I came across this Thomas Paine quote not too long ago and posted it on here. You made me think of it again with your post.

"It is never to be expected in a revolution that every man is to change his opinion at the same moment. There never yet was any truth or any principle so irresistibly obvious that all men believed it at once. Time and reason must cooperate with each other to the final establishment of any principle; and therefore those who may happen to be first convinced have not a right to persecute others, on whom conviction operates more slowly. The moral principle of revolutions is to instruct, not to destroy." - First Principles of Government, July, 1795

Spiritual battles don't play

Spiritual battles don't play out as physical battles, when they do the spiritual battle is forfieted. When we resort to violence we admit failure in the spiritual and intellectual battle.

Is it that I am going to have to counter spirtitual with

bible passages? I am doing a crash course here ... lol

I've been dealing with "one of these"

for over 4 years now. We could claw each other's eyes out but still agree on most things. But she still leans heavily "kill the savages" and I keep reminding her that Jesus never used the term "but" regarding "Blessed are the Peacemakers but....". Jesus = Prince of Peace. When the 11 apostles were told to sell their garments for a sword, the apostles could only find two swords and Jesus replied "It is enough" = 9 sleep, 2 keep guard, rotate, rinse, repeat. In other words the swords were for self defense, not aggression.

For the Love of God these knuckleheads trip my wig.

I just have this bumper-sticker in my mind that says: PRAY FOR ISRAEL: DON'T PAY FOR ISRAEL

Dude, I am the be-headed queen of this conversation. The best thing you can do is pray that God shed light on this person.

Is there anything too hard for God? Sheesh, I guess we gotta do it for Him? ARGH!!!

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

thief = satan
I = Jesus

Freedom is not: doing everything you want to.
Freedom is: not having to do what you don't want to do.
~ Joyce Meyer

I love your idea for...

a bumper sticker. I want one. I think you have a great idea here, and I would bet that a lot of people would pay for that bumper sticker.

Minnesota Mary

Hey, the info helps. I never thought I would explore this area.

I grew up going to church 6 days a week all through grammar school (Cath).

By the time you got to 8th grade, you had enough. lol ...
Most of us stopped really going to church after that because you felt that you have all those upcoming Sundays covered for the next 50 years.
My memory is being jogged.

So, actually I am finding all this info quite interesting.

Just like SC above, there is one friend who also says

"kill the savages." Maybe they both listen to, ironically, Michael Savage? Check out this 3-minute clip, Savage on War With Iran. (Stand back so the spit coming out his mouth during his rant doesn't hit you!) back http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyITc-CEqnQ

I do personally believe that there is spiritual warfare going on. But I'd say that that's reflected in how we think - which may or may not translate to a battlefield.

And no offense meant to any Jewish people here, but Christians don't entirely operate according to the same value system. Namely, we follow (or at least aspire to follow) what Jesus Christ commanded of us. At least for two Jewish friends, I know that they do believe in it being just to get revenge, based on "an eye for an eye." In my experience, if someone is of the ilk who would do something to deliberately harm you, "getting even" doesn't end the dispute but only escalate things - resolved in the end ("to the death") by "might makes right." I believe in just war to defend oneself, but war being truly a last resort. As another comment here suggested, love is what our motivator should always be based on.

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

So is there a type of general animosity

from Jewish people towards Catholics and Christians. Is this something I should be aware of?

I made no reference to animosity of Jewish people

towards Catholics and Christians - nor visa versa. I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion. Whether it exists or not would be a different discussion altogether. What I was referring to was different belief systems that informed some different values. Specifically I was referring to The Sermon On The Mount, Matthew 5, in which Jesus explains some of those differences with a series of statements, referring to OT scripture or some Mosaic law or custom, saying: "You have heard that... But I say..." Regarding what some of us have been hearing re going to war, "kill the savages," I was saying that, to a Christian, i.e., one that would be trying to follow what Jesus said and did, that would not be an appropriate motivator - no matter whom it concerned.

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

I thought maybe that is what you were slightly inferring

in the first half of your last paragraph.

Just thinking stuff out ...

That's what's nice about the DP

It's another place to do just that, "think stuff out." It's nice to get feedback and have a dialogue about an issue or idea, and yet sometimes things do have a way of triggering some thought that can take things in a whole new direction. Sometimes I've been part of a conversation where the tangent is what turned out to be the most enlightening. And while I wasn't speaking about any animosity between particular groups, I see that your comment to me did elicit some thoughts by someone else along the lines of what you were asking. I thought this was interesting post. Thanks.

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

think..

"Crusades" (no it didn't just target Muslims) and "Inquisition"... while the question is a generalization, if not outright animosity, then at least suspicion.

At least a part of the rationale behind the blind support of Israel by Evangelicals is a recompense for these two major atrocities, not to mention many more, by the Church. The other part is based in superstition, as if Israel is some sort of "good luck charm".

Rabbis practicing witchcraft in Israel - see below.

And that would be witchcraft and damnable hearsay to do such a thing. And most of the witchcraft from the west is coming from Jewish occultism, and that is *EXACTLY* what it is - a "good luck charm" which is a lie and spell.

The six pointed star used today to represent Judaism is not a Biblical symbol. It's an occult symbol, probably the same one as in Acts 7:43 (below), and also claimed to be from Solomon, where its "Solomon's seal", probably from when Solomon apostatized. It's the same place we get the word HEX from (6 pointed), and in German witches are called Hexe and Hexen.

20 major Rabbis practicing witchcraft in Israel in graveyard
http://ww w.wnd.com/2005/07/31479/
Link Broken on purpose. This is a story from a pro-Israel site that the participants wanted published. They are 20 rabbis gathered in a grave yard to cast a spell (the story may not be clear they are all rabbis, but only rabbis over 40 are taught this type of traditional "pratical" kabbalism according to kabbalah sites.

They are also all prominent Rabbis as well if you read the news articles. This is a group in Israel that has targeted two different prime ministers, and one was assassinated, and Sharon didn't die, but he's a vegetable now (probably poison). Obviously, any group that is causing a series of assassinations against leaders of Israel is high up there.

A high % of satan worship is in "judaism". And it is what has been going on for years that people have stumbled over, and another round of news comes into being.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

gotta hate...

those 'damnable hearsays'...