-13 votes

Question for Truthers

Hello fellow DPers:
First of all, let me admit that I'm not a truther. There are many circumstances surrounding 9/11 events that I would characterize as shady, but I've not made the leap to becoming a truther for a few reasons. I've noticed that the whole debate deals with issues about the ability of a steel building collapsing, inability of the government to recognize violation of air space, ability of unarmed terrorists to take control of planes, Building 7, BBC reporting of Building 7 etc. I will leave these issues aside, because I want to approach this topic differently. My main issue with 9/11 truther theory is that the motive of the terrorists/Al Qaeda gets lost:

Why would Bin Laden admit to committing these attacks?
If Bin Laden did not attack us, wouldn't that mean that there's actually very little blow back from American foreign policy?
Bush may have had a motive to go to war, but if he planned the attack, why wouldn't he have framed the attackers to be the Iraqi government?
How would you prevent one of the thousands of people involved from coming out and becoming a media prize? As bad as the media is, they love stuff like that.

I'm posing these questions because I hope to bring a different perspective into this issue.

On a separate note, I rem ember a fellow DPer posting something that dealt with the history of wars in the U.S: Spanish American War was not about the Maine, WW1 was not about the Lucitania, Pearl Harbor was not a surprise, ..., Vietnam, all the wars that follow, etc. I agreed with everything except the "..." in which the poster said that Hitler did not want to take over the world and exterminate the Jews. I mention this because the poster got many up votes, and although he made a lot of fantastic points, I just wanted to confirm that the "..." is not the prevailing opinion of the DP community? I don't know where this theory even comes from.

EDIT: A truther is someone that firmly believes that the U.S. government planned the attacks.

Cheers



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hey guys keyboard broke using

hey guys keyboard broke using on screen board i will try to respond fully soon, but please read earlier posts lots of clarification there

Why aren't you a truther?!

Does that mean you're a falser? Or a denier?

Oh, I finally read the post. I'm glad you included a definition. Is that the definition? Says you, right?

The Nutwork did it - not the Government

It wasn't the Government, but the people behind the government and the media who did it. And they didn't pull it off as the mainstream truth movment claims (still controlled by the operation management and moves around in their Virtual Reality).

911 was a Hollywood horror movie on TV. They faked it all, including the victims. Actors, scriptwriters, Hollywood special effects was the tools - and lots of money for bribery and coercion. Conclusive evidence for this is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/anthonyc31/5728754807/in/photos...

(sorry to be so blunt)

Ridiculous...

'nuff said.

I don't play, I commission the league.

 

What part? Explain the illustration in the link - what does it mean?

Motives

Sometimes, there is a over reasoning of thought goin' on, an over intellectual pattern of thought which leads in misdirection. And, a question of motive(s), are these over reasoning and over intellectual arguments being used as a defense not to find out what happened? And, worse yet, are these arguments being used to disguise what happened?

Some will never be pleased with the answers that they are given. Intent.

Motives

And your point is what?

"over reasoning of thought" looks very much like a contradiction to me. From there your messge becomes less coherent.

I await illumination.

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
======================================
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr

Reasoning

Maybe you're over-thinking it?

Motive?

Over thinking it.
Too many thoughts.
Too many thoughts, not enough depth.
Making it more difficult than it is.
Not enough knowledge.
Not enough understanding.
A lack of human nature understanding.
A lack of government influence understanding.
Not wanting to know the truth.
Using the intellect as a tickler, stimulates the mind.
Using the intellect for something to do, keep it busy.
A conversation piece.
Possibly, humoring ones self. *oneself
Playing, toying with people?
A ego booster, claiming within yourself that you have a superior intellect.
Lacks common sense.

Too many thoughts leading to Nowhere-ville.

I'm a holocaust revisionist and I question 9/11

I wonder if they would call me a "denier truther"?

Anyway. Yes OP, Hitler wasn't trying to take over the world. He wanted peace with Britain but his offer was rejected. Or in Churchill's own words, "We will force this war upon Hitler, if he wants it or not."

I wonder how people can still believe the holocaust story. It has more holes than a moth-eaten sweater. No Führer order for the extermination of Jews has ever been found. There are no homicidal gas chambers, just post-war "reconstructions" by the Soviets where they crudely knocked down some walls and added on a chimney that goes nowhere. Zyklon B was never used to kill people, it was used for delousing clothes and bedding. Not to mention, the number of Jews supposedly killed at Auschwitz has been quietly reduced several times, from 6 million down to 4 million, then again down to 1.5 million (which is what the current plaque says). I won't post any links because I sense it will be wasted on you, but do a few hours of research and tell me I am wrong.

Also, please do not try to quote Hess as proof of Die Endlösung, like the last guy did. Hess and other high ranking Nazis were tortured and tried in a Kangaroo Court, thus any "testimonies" they gave cannot be relied upon.

Wow. It's really too bad

you don't believe in getting at the truth...that is what a "truther" (and isn't it amazing that a word that means finding the truth is used as a derogatory name and it is not challenged?)does.
Yes, I am a "truther", and an "honester", and a "worker", and a "peacer", and a "sound money-er".
Any other virtues you want to twist into objects of ridicule?

As "truth" is neither a verb...

..nor an adjective, and "work" is a verb and "silly" is an adjective, "worker" and "sillier" make sense, whereas "truther" does not.

Just one of many reasons I take such wicked delight in denigrating "troofers".

For "questioners" and "skeptics", however, I have enormous respect.

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
======================================
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr

Nope, sorry

You have already bought into the Orwellian Newspeak where language is made meaningless by simply turning words into insults and ridicule and outright changing the meaning. How STOOOOPID for someone to be a "truther", how hilarious that these fools actually want truth to come out and expose lies and illogic, issues that are covered up and ignored by "official" investigations of government by themselves.
Or rather, "troofers" as you have soooo eloquently and wittily put it.

911 'Confessions of a Former CIA Asset'

Susan Lindauer is the cousin of GWB's Chief of Staff, Andy Card, so she isn't just some nobody 'story teller'. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/08/30/911-confessions-of-a...

@limepickle

Can I ask for your response to my comment below? I'm curious to know if I mentioned anything that you hadn't previously considered.

Question for Deniers...

...since I used to be one of you, do you have 10 min ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuinaIm-kd4

____

"Take hold of the future or the future will take hold of you." -- Patrick Dixon

Washington, I realize that

Washington,
I realize that many wars are false flag operations, but WW2 strikes me as a legitimate war. When you say, "The Polish Invasion of Germany," did you mean to say the "German Invasion of Poland." If so, how is that a false flag?

Also, don't you think that the Russians killed 10s of millions of civilians and Hitler killing millions of Jews is different from soldiers killing other soldiers?

I don't understand what Israel has to do with the facts of WW2. Are you saying that the Holocaust did not happen? If so, why do you say that?

Brian Middleton, I'm getting mixed reports on Bin Laden admitting to the attack. We have sources stating both that he rejected it and sources saying that he took credit.

I'm not sure what you mean by D-Day. If you mean that it was kept secret until it happened, I think that has to do with the fact that it was a military operation, not a civilian operation. As for Area 51, it's not really a secret.

I've edited my original post to give you my definition of truther, which other have already argued with me about. In any case, that's what I mean by a truther.

Dixie-Paleocon, I agree with you. I don't think that a statement like what he made suggests anything at all. I've said the same thing myself.

Dducks, obviously most of us here on the DP agree about the reaction to 9/11. I've edited my original post to include my definition of a truther.

The immediate pretext for the invasion of Poland

was a carefully staged false flag event now known as the Gleiwitz Incident:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

Hey Limepickle,

does wanting to know the truth categorize one as a 'truther'? If so, count me in. I find it asinine that the USgovt did such an inept job in investigating this crime. We were already bombing two countries before the 'official' results of the study were even complete on July 22, 2004.

Even if the the 'commission' was correct in their findings, which omitted WT7 altogether, did it warrant the deaths of perhaps a million Arabs all over the ME? Did it warrant the trillions of dollars of debt we have since accumulated? Did it warrant the destruction of our entire value system in regards to civil liberties? Did it warrant the millions upon millions of maimed, distraught, and lost friends and family members? Did it warrant the havoc yet to be dished upon innocent peoples around the world including you?

WHat is a truther? Define

WHat is a truther? Define that. Just because someone questions the official story, or doesn't buy all of it does that make them a truther? I question the official story, but that doesn't mean I think Bush did it.

If you disagree with me on anything you are not a real libertarian...

Why would Bin Laden admit to

Why would Bin Laden admit to committing these attacks?

He did not admit it. In fact he denied it over and over again.

If Bin Laden did not attack us, wouldn't that mean that there's actually very little blow back from American foreign policy?

Just because Laden didn't do it, doesn't mean others form the middle east didn't. Second, there are millions of people that hate the US because of our foreign policy.

Bush may have had a motive to go to war, but if he planned the attack, why wouldn't he have framed the attackers to be the Iraqi government?

Who says he did it? We do know they ignored warnings.

How would you prevent one of the thousands of people involved from coming out and becoming a media prize? As bad as the media is, they love stuff like that.

How was D-Day lept secret? There are 1000s of secrets by the government that involve 100s if not 1000s of people. How is Area 51 kept secret? Same way.

If you disagree with me on anything you are not a real libertarian...

There were false flags all through out WW2

The Polish Invasion of Germany?

War IS deception--has been for over 4000 years.

Have you ever heard of the Hun--how about the 'German Hun'?

The French coward?

The heroic Russians, how about the devious red devils?

The inhuman Japs and the valiant Chinese (now nearly the reverse)?

Even the 'Miracle of Dunkirk' was just propaganda. There was no miracle--Hitler let the troops go back to England.

History is just that-- His (the victor's) Story.

All the soldiers were the mass murderers.

The Holocaust is just more politics. Many more Christians died in the war, were starved, and were put in camps--what day do we celebrate for their loss and 'never again' nonsense?

Did the USA put the jews in camps? Why do we have all of these museums here? Why don't they have Native American museums in Europe?

Piles of starved bodies were common throughout Europe--it was due to lack of food because there was a WAR TARGETING CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE going on. Shaved heads were also common--it was due to Typhus and lice, not 'bed stuffing' (a theory from the USSR, who really did kill over 60 million).

If you look up the history of the holocaust you would know that Zionists were the number one terrorists until at least the 1970s. The Zionists groups claimed that Germany had caused a Holocaust in WWI and they deserved Israel. Surprise--after billionaires from the USA/Europe funded Hitler they played the Holocaust card again.

And what does Israel serve as now just as it did during the Suez Canal Crisis? A beachhead for Western invasion and domination.

We are in the Middle East and Africa for the same reason as the USSR, the Romans, India, the Chinese, the NAZIs, the Ottoman Empire, the Spanish Crown, the Empire of France, the East Indian Trading Company, etc, etc.

They're called Imperial trade routes:

http://www.francoermarmista.com/gif/trade_routes.gif

================================
Fight the Ron Paul blackout on the Daily Paul (now 'P AU L'), put his removed poster back as your avatar:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9ir62bp8nshv83m

Washington, I agree with you

Washington, I agree with you on the Eugenics programs, but my question about Hitler was more geared toward people who believed that Hitler was not a mass-murderer and was somehow framed as part of a false flag operation. WW2 is probably the only war in the last 150 years that I don't think was a false flag operation.

Hi Jungleboogie, Thanks for

Hi Jungleboogie,
Thanks for the thorough response. You really answered my last question well. The compartmentalization process makes sense. About the Hitler thing, I was just trying to figure out where that conspiracy theory comes from and how many people believe it. I pretty much firmly believe that Hitler was a mass murderer, but apparently not everyone here does.

ronpaul1776, I did see that video. IMO, as much as I hate Bush, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. I myself have said that I saw the first plane crash. It's a natural response when you've seen the initial news coverage of the first attack and heard the reporter say that it was a plane.

Washington2020, this is why I'm confused by the truther community. You and ronpaul1776 have given two completely different responses and both have been upvoted. It's one thing if you are saying that you don't know, but I've seen both arguments (Bin Laden didn't do it and Bin Laden was in on it) presented as facts. Please clarify

Hi Limepickle, let me clarify some things for you

I'm not a truther either, but on the other hand I am skeptical about the government claims - as we know how well they are truthful & open...

I don't know if you are familiar with Watergate, but if you are not - there were a lot of people who were in on the 'conspiracy'. I would estimate that 75-100 people had full knowledge, and about 1000 people had partial knowledge. When you compartmentalize an operation, many people involved become insulated or oblivious to the full scope of that operation.

This is why spy agencies compartmentalize. So that if one spy is caught, it will not expose the entire network. You follow so far?

The Bin Laden family's connection with the Bush family is very suspect. The idea that as every plane on the North American continent is grounded, the Bin Laden family are being jetted straight to Saudi Arabia stinks about as strong as stink can get.

One could argue, the bush-bin laden bond is so strong, that the Saudis could have purposefully funneled money to Osama Bin Laden to fund the attack. Who knows?

Bush DID try hard to connect Iraq to 9/11. It didn't work. You must have missed a few news cycles, heh.

Lastly, Hitler was 'cleansing' Germany in a ghastly and controlled method. Today we would call that ethnic cleansing. Jews, communists, homosexuals...they were blamed for German society's ills and it was considered best to exterminate them. I believe President Eisenhower saw the death camps when the war ended. Hardly a man one would consider a liar. I can't speak for everyone at DP, just my opinion.

Eisenhower's POW Camps

I changed my mind on Eisenhower after learning about this. Google it if you want to discover something big.

Eisenhower wrote a half page on concentration camps in his book on the war. Didn't say much.

I don't know why this is downvoted

These are fair and balanced questions, nor is Lime asking them in a derogatory way.

I'm gonna upvote.

Bin Laden's motivation was the same as most TSA employees

A paycheck.

And he didn't have to grope little boys for minimum wage while being blasted with radiation.

Instead he got a big fat paycheck for being a hero/boogie-man from the biggest terrorist loving country in the world, the USA. A country where the people are so dumbed-down they think they are at war with the most bogus of concepts: Drugs, Poverty, Alcohol, Terrorism, and now 'Man-Made Disasters' which includes global warming and terrorism put together.

Oh and if Hitler really wanted to 'exterminate' the jews he would have just sterilized them. Something that was regularly done and acceptable to 'unfit' people--including mixed races--pioneered in the USA and then mainstream in Europe at this time.

It's called Eugenics--look it up.

The Spartans and many cultures would kill or abandon their 'unfit' much like the Eugenicists desire. Let me guess, you don't mind having a beer and watching 300 and cheering on some goofy Good VS Evil nonsense?

The Spartan Eugenics program was much worse than anything Hitler did and is used as a much celebrated model to this day--fiction or otherwise.

================================
Fight the Ron Paul blackout on the Daily Paul (now 'P AU L'), put his removed poster back as your avatar:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9ir62bp8nshv83m

Bin Laden NEVER took credit

Bin Laden NEVER took credit for the attacks.

Anonymous1, thanks for not

Anonymous1, thanks for not being condescending and for presenting new ideas. Your statements and the interview definitely put a twist on the traditional truther theory. I've always suspected that government officials had reason to believe that it was happening but did not take proper action out of negligence/lack of care.

FedUp, you are the one that

FedUp, you are the one that posted an article from CNN. I posted a contradictory article from PBS, not as definitive proof, but to demonstrate the idea of not knowing which source to trust. You readily used a mainstream media article when it backed up your opinion, but now you say, "First and foremost, mainstream media generated articles are worth printing out, crumpling up many times to soften the paper, and then placing them in your bathroom for those times when you are stranded." You should at least be consistent. Also, I've watched many truther videos with curiosity and an open mind, but if I don't approach these videos with the same skepticism that I approach any other story, how is it any different? I never said that the government was not involved in covering something up. I think the government probably covered something up in hiding its negligence/stupidity. That brings us back to semantics: A truther is not someone who simply wants to find the truth. The "ER" indicates someone who does the action that precedes. A truther is someone who pushes the truth or what he/she believes to be the truth. That is different from an inquirer. I can't tell which one you are.

Don't project onto me. I honestly don't know why anyone would be "afraid" to look at truther evidence. There's no incentive for me to believe that the government did not plan the attacks. My point is that I've seen truther evidence and testimony as well as testimony from other people who corroborate certain aspects of the mainstream story, and they contradict. I've seen truther sites, and I've seen non-MSM debunking sites. Both of these types of sites have their biases. In the end, they contradict. I'm not the one trying to withhold investigation, but I'm also not the one promoting a new theory. I'm simply asking questions that I want people who FIRMLY believe that the government was responsible to answer. I'm the one using my own brain and asking questions which DO NOT come from any debunking site. The questions that I asked were my own ideas. YOU are the one deferring to truther sites.

NOTE: Planes actually had phones in them that you could use during flight, and many people have successfully and continue to successfully use their own cell phones during the flight. I'm not talking about media reports either. I'm talking about my family! Why do you assume that everything I say is blindly regurgitated from some other source? Am I not on the Dailypaul? Are all the non-truthers on DP blind sheep? Look, you make too many assumptions. You call me names and then give these back-handed compliments. I don't know what your end game is, but you're being arrogant, as if other people's own experiences don't count because they don't fit your view.

Question 1: Why would Bin Laden admit to committing these attacks?

Evidence from Responses: CNN article showing that he denied it and PBS article showing that he takes credit.

Question 2: If Bin Laden did not attack us, wouldn't that mean that there's actually very little blow back from American foreign policy?

Responses: Speculatory Responses which discredit what Michael Scheuer, Ron Paul, and other friends of the liberty movement (not exactly media schills) have passionately said about U.S. foreign policy.

Question 3: Bush may have had a motive to go to war, but if he planned the attack, why wouldn't he have framed the attackers to be the Iraqi government?

Responses: Speculatory Responses which don't present a logical reason for framing Al Qaeda instead of OPEC

Question 4: How would you prevent one of the thousands of people involved from coming out and becoming a media prize?

Responses: Thousands would not have to be involved

Question 5: Why did many of you upvote "Hitler did not want to take over the world or exterminate the Jews"

Responses: No response