-13 votes

Question for Truthers

Hello fellow DPers:
First of all, let me admit that I'm not a truther. There are many circumstances surrounding 9/11 events that I would characterize as shady, but I've not made the leap to becoming a truther for a few reasons. I've noticed that the whole debate deals with issues about the ability of a steel building collapsing, inability of the government to recognize violation of air space, ability of unarmed terrorists to take control of planes, Building 7, BBC reporting of Building 7 etc. I will leave these issues aside, because I want to approach this topic differently. My main issue with 9/11 truther theory is that the motive of the terrorists/Al Qaeda gets lost:

Why would Bin Laden admit to committing these attacks?
If Bin Laden did not attack us, wouldn't that mean that there's actually very little blow back from American foreign policy?
Bush may have had a motive to go to war, but if he planned the attack, why wouldn't he have framed the attackers to be the Iraqi government?
How would you prevent one of the thousands of people involved from coming out and becoming a media prize? As bad as the media is, they love stuff like that.

I'm posing these questions because I hope to bring a different perspective into this issue.

On a separate note, I rem ember a fellow DPer posting something that dealt with the history of wars in the U.S: Spanish American War was not about the Maine, WW1 was not about the Lucitania, Pearl Harbor was not a surprise, ..., Vietnam, all the wars that follow, etc. I agreed with everything except the "..." in which the poster said that Hitler did not want to take over the world and exterminate the Jews. I mention this because the poster got many up votes, and although he made a lot of fantastic points, I just wanted to confirm that the "..." is not the prevailing opinion of the DP community? I don't know where this theory even comes from.

EDIT: A truther is someone that firmly believes that the U.S. government planned the attacks.

Cheers

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Some answers:

1: I'm not aware that he really admitted that - at least haven't seen any credible evidence for that.

2: The track record for US foreign invention is awful anyway. Watch some videos on this book: Overthrow: America’s Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq, by Stephen Kinzer - One example: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5325069

3: The War On Terror is a project designed not to end - it is a perpetual enemy. Here, Aaron Russo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Fu... to 5:55 - Iraq had WMD, you remember? Ie, a terrorist.

4: The thousand of people would be labeled conspiracy theorists and silenced. Media will control that - I promise.

5: Don't know why that was upvoted, but AH never wanted to conquer the whole world. Only Germany was in his interest. He didn't want the colonies back - but a union with Austria. Don't think he wanted a war with England. Don't understand anymore this notion that he wanted to conquer the whole world. Must have been something we learned in school.

This concentration camp part of the story is grossly exaggerated at best. All you have to do to change your perception of this event significantly, is to watch the video David Cole in Auschwitz and read the short PDF The Gas Chamber of Sherlock Holmes, by Samuel Crowell. The history of Typhus is very very relevant.

Also I'd like you to watch this...

It's a talk about "Treason In America" (re: 9/11 truth):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5APMGiTbNCk

My Response

I could be wrong but I get the sense you might not be considering the possibility that Bin Laden did want to attack the US (and was happy to boast about it) but only had the ability to based on the help from some false flag operative from the U.S. (and/or possibly Israel). The planes could've, in a sense, been a decoy to make the building collapses seem more "feasible" (WTC7 aside). If it's true that thermite was found in the WTC dust, it's pretty disturbing.

> Bush may have had a motive to go to war, but if he planned the
> attack, why wouldn't he have framed the attackers to be the
> Iraqi government?

That is an interesting question. I would think having a "nebulous" opponent (a war on "terror") gives the government a credible reason to attack any country in the middle-east at any time. ("Hey we're just fighting where the war takes us".) If it was obvious that Iraq attacked us, it would be much harder to convince the public why we needed to have troops elsewhere.

> How would you prevent one of the thousands of people involved
> from coming out and becoming a media prize?

I would say that, if there was a plot, not very many people were in on it. The ones who were certainly knew they could trust the others in the group. Worst comes to worst, you can always frame someone as a lunatic conspiracy theorist or suppress their story through the controlled media. And again, Bin Laden and the suicide bombers could've really been carrying out the plot but only had the ability to due to the help of the plotters.

As

far as i'm aware...Bin Laden never said he was behind the attacks....the only info i've seen he vehemently denied being involved.

FedUp, I'm not trying to

FedUp, I'm not trying to reject your argument. I was posing alternative questions for truthers, real truthers, to consider. I will hold that a truther is someone who firmly believes that the government did it. People who call themselves truthers for wanting an investigation have hijacked the term as neo-cons hijacked the tea party. Look at the etymology of the word: truth-ER, someone that knows the truth and pushes it on others, not someone who wants to know the truth. Someone who wants to work is not a worker. Someone who wants to build stuff is not a builder. People who want an investigation are inquirers. It's dogmatic to say that if I don't acquiesce I'm an idiot or a troll. You are using bogus tricks to force people toward your opinion. No one's falling for it here. By your standard, Ron Paul is an idiot or a troll. You have also presented some actual evidence, and for that, I'm all ears, or eyes in this case. You have presented me or reposted an article from CNN that has him denying that he planned the attacks. I have an article from PBS, the same news organization which recently released a 9/11 truther documentary, saying that he admits to it: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/binladen_10-29-04.html

Which am I to believe? They are both media. What is "the media"? This website is a medium. CNN is a medium. Why should I believe CNN instead of PBS? If CNN were involved in the conspiracy, why would they publish that article?

I'm not buying your explanation about framing Al Qaeda. Obviously, it WAS very easy at the time to push war in the middle east, but only a few years later, we have 70% disapproval. If the government truly designed the attacks, it would create the easiest plan of attack. For example, it would frame OPEC, and that would easily open the door for perpetual war with the middle east. It would also continue to have at least 40% approval.

As for your statement about the Pentagon videos, Judical Watch video 2 shows a long, narrow object that looks very much like the Boeing 757 hitting the Pentagon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAaP4Z3zls8&feature=relmfu

Now the Pentagon can't change it's frames per second rate so that you can get a closer look, but the object hitting the Pentagon matches the dimensions of a 757 as far as anyone can tell. I don't know where this line of inquiry would be headed anyways.

erschiessen, that's an interesting video, but I have to say it's not good evidence. I have personally said that I saw the first plane crash. This is a natural way of phrasing it when you saw the news report after the first plane crash and heard them say it was a plane.

anonymous1, the reason why there would have to be thousands of people involved in the conspiracy is that although you can get away with keeping it to a few people before the attack, the people that would have inadvertently participated in the conspiracy would know after attack what their actions led to. The people calling from the plane would have to be in on it. You basically would have needed all the people on the plane willing to die. After all, if the hijackers only had box cutters, why wouldn't the passengers overpower them. The list goes on and on.

I'm also waiting for a response from the people that up-voted "Hitler did not want to take over the world or exterminate Jews."

Lime

I dont have time to go down through all the different facets and explain this to you. Ive watched many videos and read much on this and I know the government ane numerous people knew this was coming and knew it would be on 9-11.
I have proof that numerous folks knew about it and knew it was going to be on 9-11.
ever heard of the "puts" entered on 9-10 for 9-11?
oh and they were entered by an investment headed by buzzy krongard.
did u know that the top echelon of us government began taking i think it was anthrax medicine just prior to 9-11?
Or that on 9-10, a whole group of top brass cancelled flights for 9-11

You should google Richard Clarke interview 7. He did do what you just said. He gave an interview and it was VERY interesting.
Numerous witnesses have spoken out and oh ya, many have died. Of course those deaths were ALL normal and no further investigation is necessary.
Where do you live? You arent aware that in the US, when witnesses come out on this they're mocked and relegated to the looney bin in the public's mind?

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Good Lord now you are being doltish...

and the benefit of the doubts you engender is being whisked away by the wind whistling through your ears....sorry, but now you are being obtuse.

Pay attention. First and foremost, mainstream media generated articles are worth printing out, crumpling up many times to soften the paper, and then placing them in your bathroom for those times when you are stranded. You should understand this if you've been paying attention to this campaign cycle and the last. Further, Bin Laden is, I'm sure a factor in this...just not the mastermind nor the sole perpetrator...patsy in the Oswald genre comes to mind...but I'm willing to forgo any opinions right now as he is the hardest of all to validate and cubbyhole. It is far easier to examine what we know and can prove.

There are cameras all along the upper eaves if the Pentagon...all the way around it...at least every 100 ft. or so...and they aren't circa 1996 Logitech deck cams. Then, the Citgo station, within minutes of the attack was visited by the "FBI" and the security video, aimed at the pentagon, was confiscated and never seen again.

How is it that you want to somehow take a few frames of a grainy parking lot video as the only evidence available, when each camera mounted on the Pentagon and facing the Citgo station would have clear, high definition, video of the "plane's" approach to the building, which by the way none of the witnesses deny happening. First, why don't we see these video's? PLease answer this. Second, some of the witnesses, those over in Arlington Cemetery were "surprised the plane could hit the outside ring" as they saw the plane crest the top of the building and thought that it "hit" the top of an inner ring.

Add to this the testimony of the Guard at the Southside loading dock seeing "a large airliner banking out of the south parking lot, seconds after the explosions sent him the 7 or 8 steps from his kiosk to the loading dock door door while pulling his weapon...and you have major problems. He BTW, would never talk to them again, after their first recorded phone conversation...much less tell his story on camera.

Virtually every witness including two police officers that were at the Citgo station, placed the planes approach coming in over the Navy Annex building...meaning it could not have touched the light poles. To mistake this, and place the plane in the light pole's path,they'd have to have the plane completely on the other side of the building when they saw it???? So how were they knocked over? Remember the Cab with a light pole in the windshield? His wife was an FBI employee...watch his videos...

I will once again direct you to EVERY VIDEO INTERVIEW MADE with all non-media eyewitnesses at Pentaconned.com. Once you see these and hear what was SEEN, you will come away with understandings that what you were told was, for some reason, a blatant lie...and more questions...regarding how the light poles were downed and what in fact became of the plane. Sure it sounds like more "theory" that you can scoff at, but you have not yet spent the time reviewing the investigation...do so. There is no doubt of this...but you must have the courage to look and listen...to ALL of them.

Ron Paul is a politician who has already been painted as a crank. But he's not. Nor is he an idiot. Look at yourself here and we'll give Ron a pass as what he has accomplished would never have been realized if he took up the cause of the truthers. What he has done is said that many Americans would like to see a real investigation and that they should get one.

You, after 11 years have not the courage to examine your belief system by viewing all of the evidence and coming up with your own understandings of the possibilities...and the impossibilities here...as it frightens you to think that things could be so freakin' phucked up...and that you could be so gullible. I know. I was there.

Anything that emanates from the media now is suspect..so you will have you use your brain and stop deferring to the opinions of others. That's what it takes...plain and simple...and you don't seem stupid. You articulate yourself well and I would guess that you have a college education. Use it and the research skills you should have learned.

Whether it is the Pentaconned Investigation, Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Pilots for 9/11 Truth, or Patriots for 9/11 Truth...you will have enough to make yourself puke at your own gullibility. You don't want "Truther" theories. You want "doubter facts" right. Well there's your research list. Try it...you won't like it. But then it will shut you up as a turd stirrer and possibly provide yourself with enough of an understanding that you can educate others.

As an aside, in 2007, when I woke up, I had a pilot friend who flys out of Dulles experiment with cell phones with me...I'll spare you all the details but suffice it to say...we were never able to connect a call using any of the available carriers...using the parameters of the story and even at lower altitudes and speeds.

The main idea here you must grasp is that you have personal responsibility in this matter...especially as you try to regurgitate that swill into our laps again.

Wha? .....hey....who stole my country?

Judging by your post I can

Judging by your post I can see that you haven't looked into it beyond what some "dubunkers" would say.

You know?

There is no liberty without holding those who commit crimes against liberty accountable.

I don't know how anyone can say

"I'm not a truther"

What are you saying? You don't want to know the truth about anything ever?

FEED ME LIES AND LOTS OF THEM!

Ideal Manchurian Candidate.

Why not question everything instead? our inquisitive nature is the basis of all human achievement but you just don't want to know. What a fucking idiot.

Just close your eyes, click your heels together and......

it will all go away.

Go ahead, keep reasoning it away in your little brain washed mind. Keep arguing the degree of your slavery. Go ahead keep defending the slave master, maybe he will let you sit on his porch, to keep tabs on the other slaves.

Keep defending the evil, whose goal is to slow kill your entire family with GMO food, poison water and continuous chemical and biological attacks on your body. They will make you sick and then offer you a false cure, so they can extract your money and property from you.

Go ahead, defend the pure evil that is happening all around you. Maybe it is so horrible that you can't wrap your mind around it, so all you can do is call it a "conspiracy theory"

The real truth will not set you free, it will absolutely crush you.

Natural Order

all about the

Benjamins ! follow that dang money trail and get thee a fliggin clue, good buddy !

I have a question for truthers

http://www.dailypaul.com/256651/war-of-1812

They that give up liberty for security deserve neither.

Liar or Truther or Deceived or Lazy?

The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571 Page Lie
By David Ray Griffin

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-9-11-commission-report-a-57...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Commission-Report-Omissions-Distor...

November 6th 2012 I voted for Dr.Ron Paul
"We must remember, elections are short-term efforts. Revolutions are long-term projects." ~ Ron Paul

Looks like Limepickle has left the building...

;-)

Wha? .....hey....who stole my country?

Haha no I just don't have all

Haha no I just don't have all day to respond. In regards to the Bin Laden confession, I suppose it's not really a confession. I found a different video, but that one doesn't look like Bin Laden. It still doesn't make sense to me that Bin Laden wouldn't come out and say that he didn't do it, seeing as how he was considered world enemy number one. Also, no one talked about the Hitler thing.

What doesn't make sense?

"that Bin Laden wouldn't come out and say that he didn't do it"

Here's your sign:
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

But then again, I am simply reposting from an answer given to you by Citizen Joe below...

Look if you are gonna stir turds with what is obviously little knowledge, you had better reply to those taking the time to educate you...or of course keep your ignorance to yourself as we also must manage our time and efforts. Because you are here, we are going to give you the benefit of the doubts you engender. It is therefore incumbent upon you to make a good faith effort to wrestle with your belief system in the presence of such an avalanche of evidence as has been thrown at you...just as I had to do once I accepted the personal responsibility to look and weigh what it was that I saw.

Many of us started from the view point that anyone who would suggest that this had "inside" activities was crazy...it's what we have been conditioned to do our whole lives. It was my involvement with the 2008 campaign and prodding from my friend, deceased singer Eva Cassidy's father (do yourself a favor and Youtube her), a sculptor of steel, that caused me to drop my Pavlovian defenses and take a look. The rest is "history".

Acquiesce or argue...and then acquiesce in the end since you will never win this obtuse argument and will simply show yourself to be either an idiot...or a troll. Right now you are neither.

Your conclusions will decide...

Wha? .....hey....who stole my country?

BTW, I would support a proper

BTW, I would support a proper investigation of the events. However, a truther in the context of 9/11 is not someone that's just looking for the truth. A truther is someone who distinctly believes that the government planned the attacks. I've seen people say "I ask questions- I don't know the answers for sure though." That's not a truther; a truther is someone who firmly believes the government was responsible.

But as long as we're asking questions, I think I brought up some valid ones. Since people have invalidated the Bin Laden question, let's focus on the other two. The goal of the neo-cons is to revamp the Middle East. It therefore does not make sense for the government to frame a rebel terrorist group like Al Qaeda. If the government frames the actual countries like Afghanistan and Iraq, it would be able to pursue nation building projects with less resistance. Also, a conspiracy like this WOULD involve thousands of people, and no one associated with a government agency that dealt with the attacks has come out.

What? Where did you get your definition? Blacks Law Journal?

Lets use the KISS principal, a "Truther" is someone who does not believe the official narrative of the occurrences on 09/11/2001. The simple fact is any rational thinking person who bothers to look at the evidence and compare it to the official story could not possibly believe what they are being told. The most amazing thing about 9/11 truth is not how the buildings came down, or who knew or did what, its that the information has been so contained in the MSM that the general public has been kept in the dark. That my friend is a force so dark and evil that it escapes definition.

lime

you said this -
Also, a conspiracy like this WOULD involve thousands of people, and no one associated with a government agency that dealt with the attacks has come out.

this is a popular belief, is constantly repeated and is completely false.

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

You Limepickle...have no authority to define...

"truther"...none. Take it at face value. A truther, like me, is someone who KNOWS that a lie has been perpetrated upon them and given the evidence can see that insiders HAD TO BE INVOLVED at some level. There is no other explanation.

As to various theories. They are, at this point...theories. Some are far fetched...others are quite plausible. We'd like subpoena power to find out which ones are correct.

Given the events, as they transpired, Al Queda is still the boogeyman they are using in each country in which we are involved. Iraq was easy to paint with the same broad brush...at the time...and since, has been a "harbor for terrorism" of both "Al-Queda in Iraq" and "Iranian-backed terrorists". Come on dude..this stuff ain't that hard. Go view Pentaconned and watch EVERY video they have done. Then ask yourself where the film of the plane is. Have you ever had occasion to drive by the Pentagon? I have, all the time, and I can tell you, there are cameras everywhere along the rim of that building...and they were there 11 years ago...

Look up Greenbriar Resort and understand how large an operation that was and how long it remained a secret...and how the media never let on about it when you have to believe that SOME reporter would have gotten wind of it. There are more examples of this but, this should get you thinking.

BTW, what we are talking about here would be easy to do in secrecy and with relatively very few people as long as they were in-charge and were sure to be hidden by the media.

Wha? .....hey....who stole my country?

I suspect..

that you truly are curious and looking for an answer or even the TRUTH.. maybe you are a truther after all.
I don't know what the TRUTH is regarding 9/11, but I know there have been many lies. I just want the truth, I don't know if that makes me a "truther" or not

One question for non-truthers.

Wait, two questions. You realize that claiming you are "not a truther" is essentially admitting you are a liar, right? OK, next question - Are you aware that when there is an arson, it is illegal to tamper with the crime scene until the investigation is done?

Now, while you ponder that question, remember a few facts about 9-12. Huge crews of men with heavy equipment moved in - who authorized them to DESTROY THE EVIDENCE?
When the people demanded an investigation, Georgie-boy did all he could to prevent it, and when he HAD to start one, the investigators were cronies who disregarded ALL testimony about "hearing bombs" even thought it was firefighters and EMTS who heard them, saw them, watched them blow up. And when George was finally ordered to testify himself, he had to have Dickykens Cheney hold his little hand.
Prescott Bush funded the Nazis and tried to overthrow the US government. That was Gramps. Daddy Georgie was at Dealy Plaza the day JFK was assassinated, then SAT on the Warren Commission rather than be called in front of it. Then he was given the top post at the CIA where HE INVENTED Al-Qaeda, and trained and armed Osama bin Laden. By the way, bin Laden has NEVER BEEN CHARGED with any crimes associated with 9-11. He was murdered in cold blood without trial - makes you proud to be an American, huh?
One more nugget - bin Laden was receiving kidney dialysis on 9-11. People in end stage kidney disease do NOT live another 10 years. They murdered a body double. Yeah, feels like justice now, does it not?

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

Fishy

Where the heck have ya been ??

"Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
Mark Twain

Been unplugged this summer

Living in an RV, getting started on the farm. It has been amazing.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

I was thinking the same thing

Nice to see you are still here. How is the aquaponic system working long term?

Aquaonics system is getting upgraded right now!

I met Mark when I was 17, we have dreamed of building a dome since we met. We are building it right now... for the FISH! lol!

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

Post a Pic of it when you get it setup?

Aquaponics is fascinating, love to see your set up and know how its working out.

why wouldn't

Bin Laden take credit? He wanted to make a statement of protest of American actions abroad and that could not have happened had he not taken credit. Now, do I believe those Arabs hijacked those planes with boxcutters? It's certainly possible and not at all hard to believe given their feelings toward this country. However, with a background in architecture, I don't believe those buildings could have come down the way they did without a controlled demolitiion. So one theory is that quite possibly the Bush admin. knew that there was more to that day than just some men with boxcutters hijacking a plane and flying it into the bldgs. I think maybe the administration had ignored CIA warnings, and gotten too cocky, and were taken by surprise that day. Maybe they didn't want the American public to know that the terrorists were much more sophisticated in their planning and then begin to wonder if the administration was fit to protect the country. If Americans knew that the building were brought down by explosives there would have been a much much greater fear from the public and the people might have though Bush wasn't capable of defending us against them and voted him out of office. A few 3rd world bozos with boxcutters seems a much easier adversary to defeat than a highly organized group capable of secretly placing explosives in one of the US's most likely targets without getting caught. The damage had been done, so why would the admin. want to investigate it properly and potentially expose some of their weaknesses.

Sorry,not buying it.Still

Sorry,not buying it.Still doesn't explain a lot of other things that happened that day,like the lack of body's and plane debris at the Pentagon and site in Penn.