-27 votes

Liberty PAC supports pro-choice candidates. They will not get one cent from me.

It has come to my attention that a number of candidates backed by C4L are actually pro-choice. This is unacceptable. The campaign has made it clear by these actions that they are willing to compromise on their moral priorities for the sake of their other causes such as economic and military abuses. I am a huge proponent of a sound monetary policy, and this too I believe is ultimately a moral issue, but the taking of human life is paramount to any other issues and is non-negotiable and certain contrary to the concept of freedom. This campaign will not get one cent from me or any vocal support unless they change this position. This is also why I do not support Gary Johnson.

I am wrong about C4L. I do apologize. I got it mixed up with the Liberty PAC, which does endorse pro-choice candidates. I am deeply sorry for my mistake.

But I do believe this is a critical discussion within the liberty movement so I am leaving up this post if that is alright.



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Do you have any evidence of what youre saying?
of course you dont because C4L is a 501(c)4 and can not endorse any one particular candidate, nor funnel money to them. so how can they support a pro choice candidate and where did your info come from, please?

"OH NO! He has a SON?" Neoconservatives and Liberals EVERYWHERE!

Rand Paul 2016

It's Liberty PAC, sorry!

You are right. I got it mixed up with the Liberty PAC. I have changed my post.

As a side note, are you saying that C4L would not stand behind or support in some way both pro-life and pro-choice candidates and officials?

This is what you don't get,

This is what you don't get, and WHY the huge anti-abortion voting block has achieved absolutely NOTHING over the last 30 years! If you were a "anti-abortion" politician who won because you campaigned against abortion, you do NOT ever want to get rid of abortion because all of those now guaranteed votes will splinter off into other pet issues causing you to become more vulnerable to losing! The anti-abortion crowd has been USED and ABUSED relentlessly over he last 30 years, wake up! The ONLY way to get rid of abortion is to get the Liberty movement in power BECAUSE the Liberty movement WILL support state's rights, and that is the ONLY way to end abortion, at least in your state! And to EVER have a chance of ending abortion in your state, you MUST include liberty loving pro-choice people in the Liberty movement! You will NEVER do it through the Supreme Court, NEVER!

To state that you will only support those candidates that run on a campaign against abortion guarantees that abortion will NEVER be ended! NEVER!

Wasn't abortion made

Wasn't abortion made nationally legal through the Supreme Court? Why then can't that be reversed? With all due respect I don't hear any thing substantive in your argument. Saying "NEVER" over and over does not make your argument more effective.

The truth is, the liberty movement doesn't want to deal with abortion because it is no different than any other political movement. It wants to attract as wide of a voter base as possible. It has deluded itself into thinking that it can remain neutral on abortion and promote liberty at the same time, while one million of its people are oppressed by the enslavement of abortion every year.

This issue will never go away, not because it is some super conspiracy by the parties to create division, but because of what abortion is.

Trying to ignore abortion is futile because it reflects the overall moral state of society. The fact that the majority population either is pro-choice or is not enraged by abortion is a sign of a much larger and more serious depraved moral condition.

In other words, our society is rotten to the core, and if you or anyone thinks that abortion will end simply by state's regaining their rights over this issue in light of the overall moral consensus of society, then I believe you are in great error.

You are right, politicians have used the issue of abortion for dishonorable purposes for a long time, and many a follower have they strung along.

This is exactly why the liberty movement, a movement that supposedly stands for truth and the freedom that our forefathers fought and died for, must include all groups in their quest for freedom. The unborn must be liberated. The unborn must be granted the same unalienable rights that they have been endowed by their Creator, something which our forefathers firmly believed in.

I urge each and everyone of you, be brave and bold and do not stand against abortion for political reasons, but be brave because of the great injustice being done against our own people.

"abortion is a sign of a much

"abortion is a sign of a much larger and more serious depraved moral condition. In other words, our society is rotten to the core,.."

Oh, I see, and you want to use the immoral, soulless, corrupt government to get everyone's moral compass back on track? That should work out great!

The reason you can never defeat abortion through the Supreme Court is that you would have to elect a string of anti-abortion justices, and this would take an UNINTERRUPTED string of anti-abortion presidents, (really and truly anti-abortion presidents, not those just using this issue as 90%+ of them do), and this would take maybe 30 years of CONSECUTIVE UNINTERRUPTED anti-abortion Republican administrations. This long string of CONSECUTIVE administrations will NEVER happen! It never has and it never will! And even if it did, you would have to prevent a later reversal in the event that a few pro-choice justices were appointed. This is the lost leader road all the pro-life politicians have been sending you and your cause down! Look at the progress made so far! Look at the HUGE Pro-Life voting block and the zero progress it has made! How can you say I am just giving you a bunch of never's? History and reality are my proof! The ONLY way to end abortion is to fight WITH the pro-choice crowd for state's rights. This means promoting Liberty.

In the mean time, teaching

In the mean time, teaching YOUR boys to keep thier pecker in thier pants, and YOUR girls to keep thier legs crossed, and teaching both that they can come and talk to YOU about anything, will go MUCH further than ANY court ruling....

But don't you see, your

But don't you see, your argument only supports what I'm saying.

You admit yourself that the only way to overturn this through the Supreme Court is by consecutive pro-life administrations.

The fact is, this exact thing happened, except in reverse. Abortion was made legal because consecutive administrations resulted in pro-choice judges being appointed, and this is evidence of the moral down-spiral of our society.

Now it is even worse because most folks are either pro-choice or they are pro-life, and those who are able to do something put forth almost no effort to make a difference.

It's too hard they say. This is a lie. This is a great lie.

I say, stand up and be brave! If you say something is impossible, you have lost before you ever started.

And do you honestly think that if the state's do reclaim their rights that the pro-choice folks are simply going to roll over? Oh no. There could even be a war over it.

What I don't understand is why the liberty movement is so averse to every single idea of legislation at the federal level. If that legislation promotes the freedom of individuals, just as with all other civil liberties issues, then I think we should seriously consider federal legislation for those causes.

As it is, I believe that for how great Ron Paul is, he throws out the baby with the bath water. He has us all thinking that almost any federal legislation is bad, and that it all needs to be put in the hands of the states.

In Article 4 Section 4 the Constitution states that every state shall be granted protection from domestic violence at the federal level. Abortion is domestic violence perpetrated against a million of our own people every year, by its own people.

If we leave this issue up to a state by state basis, it will never go away. It needs to be put to an end at the federal level, and the unborn should be protected federally by the Constitution from the domestic violence which they defenselessly incur every year.

By being "all or nothing",

By being "all or nothing", you guarantee yourself nothing. The world is growing more and more evil! Our politicians are mostly all working for darkness! The government is immoral, corrupt, and evil, it will not help you! If you could get it made illegal in 20 states (which would be easy enough with state's rights) those 20 states would enjoy blessings and prosper! They would be filled with love and life and the others would follow once they saw the virtue of supporting life. You will guarantee that day never arrives! You are "all or nothing"! You are the reason abortion will never go away! Satan thanks you!

Look at what has been

Look at what has been achieved by relatively few people in their attempt to get Ron Paul elected. We have literally changed the country permanently.

Imagine if those same people all unified against the cause of abortion and put that same amount of energy to fight abortion.

I think it is unfortunate that the bulk of liberty-minded individuals seem to think they have lost before they have even started.

The preservation of life is the highest goal of liberty. And as such I think the liberty movement ought to take a clear stand on that issue.

Divide and conquer, that is

Divide and conquer, that is how they win! Get the public to divide over a touchy topic and ignore all other issues! Since Ronald Reagan, there has been a one issue anti-abortion voting block that swings every election and frequently won over the last 30+ years. My question to you is, "What did those "wins" change?" More importantly, look where we are right now! Are we better off? Has ANYTHING changed regarding abortion? No! Don't you feel used yet? Violated even? If they can keep you focused one your one pet issue, they can keep this train heading for the cliff, is that what you want? I, also am against abortion, but I will not be pandered and lied to any more, they will not use me anymore! I will support ALL liberty candidates and once Liberty makes a come back, this issue will resolve itself in the only way that will ever provide ANY hope for those against abortion, state's rights! You will NEVER get rid of abortion through the Supreme Court, you will NEVER get rid of it by voting for those that USE this issue and YOU to get elected! Would a politician want to get rid of the one wedge issue that provided him a huge voting block by outlawing abortion? NO! And those that campaign against it will NEVER get rid of it BECAUSE they NEED it to get elected! You will ONLY have success eventually, by supporting ALL Liberty candidates NOW! You are being played like a fiddle, WAKE UP!

Politicians used slavery to

Politicians used slavery to garner support. They even had a war over it.

It doesn't matter, because slavery is wrong, and so is abortion.

With all due respect, it is you and others like you who are being played like a fiddle, because you think that by being wise to the political game over abortion that somehow this is good for the cause of ending abortion? This is nonsense.

This isn't a game. Abortion should be treated less like a political issue and more for what it is, the slaughtering of one million of our own people every year.

The campaign for the abolition of abortion supercede's any party's strategy. We should never compromise the quest to preserve human life for the pursuit of political power, something I fear that the liberty movement is already in danger of falling into.

Your way of attacking it

Your way of attacking it through the Supreme Court, has a 100% failure record over the last 30 years! Is it failure that you pursue? The only real way to stop it for good is to bring back state's rights and allow state's to outlaw it. This requires YOU to fight for liberty and the Constitution along WITH the pro-choice crowd. While you continue to put off any success far into the future (as it would take decades of uninterrupted successes to change the Supreme Court), the public grows more and more pro-choice! Through this combination of continuing to support a failed path to your goal, ignoring the only real way to stop it, and putting it off farther and farther into the future, a future where the public is growing more and more pro-choice, YOU are guaranteeing abortion will always be legal! Your hard hardheadedness (refusal to support Liberty, the Constitution, and state's rights) and misdirection (pursuing a failed strategy through the Supreme Court)is supporting abortion!

The people who hold to their

The people who hold to their ideological positions are alone responsible for adhering to those positions.

It is not the fault of me, you, or anyone for what someone else believes.

If you think for one second that because I or anyone disagree with the idea that defeating abortion through the states somehow guarantees that abortion will always be legal, then with all due respect, you do not understand the significance and reality of a country's moral condition.

The fact that culture increasingly stands idly aside or supports the killing of their own people is not because we have pursued the wrong way to defeat this black mark on culture.

No the reason for this is because this culture has become increasingly more immoral.

Can we honestly believe that certain structures of government have anything to do with a culture's moral standing? Of course not. The acceptance or support of abortion is a moral issue. It is a matter of the heart.

This guarantee that giving states back their rights will magically undo abortion I think cannot be made.

How would that even look on a practical level? What if the states actually won the right to decide this issue at the state level? How will that work exactly with a mishmash of pro-choice and pro-life supporters in office?

I don't believe it will work. I think that the liberty movement has used this idea as justification so that they can ignore abortion and pretend that they can deal with it later.

Ron Paul himself said that abortion is the most important issue of our age.

If that is the case then why doesn't the liberty movement, which is predominantly influenced by Ron Paul, take a firm stand against it instead of being neutral?

You are all a bit off from original post, which begs a question!

What exactly are you talking about when you say the 'Campaign for Liberty', presuming you are referring to the C4L, of which Ron Paul is honorary chairman, is 'fundraising for liberty candidates'?

Where is your proof of this, or the latest piece of evidence that they are supporting any particular candidate?

The C4L, or 'Campaign for Liberty', is a non-profit 501(c)4 which does not endorse any candidate that I am aware of, but fights on issues, such as lobbying for the 'End the Fed' bill in congress!

Remember that key figures, such as Tate and Hopper, who were on the payroll of C4L right after the RP 2008 campaign, shifted over to the new 2012 campaign early on, but had to remove all their activity from the domain of C4L so as to remove all connection which would implicate the C4L as being involved in campaigning at all! This was a legal requirement due to the intended non-profit status and setup of C4L. You may have noticed that the C4L made no overt statement of any type which would have endorsed or supported any particular candidate!

This very matter of not endorsing or fighting for Ron Paul directly as a specific expenditure of money and effort, after soliciting the support of the Ron Paul grassroots after the 2008 fight, has been a thorn in the eye of some in the grassroots movement. The elephant in the room?

C4L

You mean Jesse Benton's slush fund...

Pro-choice? Well I guess I will go give them money right now

You might be all into sniffing around in peoples bedrooms, but personally I am not. I thank you for making me think about going and donating.

Thanks!

My thought exactly

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Your a fool

Liberty is all about CHOICE. You do not have the RIGHT to tell anyone what they can or can't do with there body. This is not about morals or religion this is about " Does the government have the right to tell you what you can do or don't do with your body" It is not the governments JOB to legislate morality.

Well, like

Ron Paul has said many times, you're supposed to have privacy in your own home and we all believe, respect, and defend that. But, a mother can't drown her two-year old in the bathtub just because her toddler is in the privacy of her own home. The same goes for a baby with a beating heart in her womb. Yes, everyone should have the right to choose what to do with his or her own body. But, abortions aren't done to the mother's body, they're done to the baby's body. You have a right to choose to harm yourself if you want, but, when you choose to harm someone else, then it's time to start legislating morality.

You believe it's immoral to steal. I'm sure you also believe it should be illegal to steal. By doing so, you're advocating the legislation of your own morality.

Liberty is about Life

To me, Liberty is not about choice, Liberty is about Life. Choice says 2 wolves and 1 lamb can decide what is for dinner. Ron Paul says "Unless we understand…we must protect life, we cannot protect liberty."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkAsLPrnJGc&feature=player_em...

The current dialog in the public arena is about post birth abortions for 2 year olds...because whether they are yet "human" is being questioned...

DO NOT take this personally;

DO NOT take this personally; it is just the rambling thoughts of a very old and tired of fighting old man. Abortion is much like being a ‘lover’ of your same sex, or a murderer, thief, and on and on. To a “Christian” and many other faiths, this is wrong. It is sin. One sin is not any worse than another sin. Sin receives the judgment of death. I am NOT a judge; there is only one who is. While I personally don’t condone certain behaviors and actions, such behaviors and actions exist.
You assert, that you will be withholding your support for a group and a vote for a person based on this “ultimately a moral issue” opinion. You will find, as I have, that it is not your support that they want. They want your opinion. More importantly they want to shape your opinion. Most importantly they want to keep us divided on “issues”. That way we won’t be focusing on THE issue of true FREEDOM.
FREEDOM; It is NOT imposing your beliefs on others; it is minding your OWN business with the reasonable expectation that all others will do the same. It is not letting MY rights interfere with yours. It is telling government that, “WE THE PEOPLE” created you, and as the creators, you may kiss my backside if you think you’re going to tell me what to do (If you hired a house cleaner that showed up and sat on YOUR sofa, eating YOUR snacks, watching YOUR tube, and told YOU to go clean the windows, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?) REALLY? The government wants to do what with MY health and body? SHOOT, we ought to keep everyone on a strict 2000 calorie diet, and make it mandatory that they all cut back if the U.S. G.N.P. falls. While we’re at it, let’s tell a woman or young girl, that WE know better than her own conscious what is good for her…or on a simpler playing field, how about we agree that I will mind my business, you will mind yours, and we BOTH will tell the government to go to hell when it is acting outside its Constitutional authority (NO HEALTHCARE).
“MORAL ISSUE”? Morals are for the individual. Your rational, based on what you have been taught and your experience, are all that you will take before your creator. I have been taught that the Creator is a “forgiving” God. I sure hope that’s true…. I DON’T want what I have earned in this life.

That's the whole point of my

That's the whole point of my post.

I want the liberty movement to include the pursuit of liberty for the unborn.

As it stands now, the liberty movement will not seek the protection of their basic human right to live. They are enslaved to death by the laws which enable abortion.

How would you like to be enslaved to death? Does that sound like freedom to you?

This limits the liberty

This limits the liberty movements potential membership to less then one half keeping it from power. Fight for liberty because liberty will bring in enough to put us in power, and once in power, ALL of us will fight for state's rights, and ONLY through state's rights can the abortion issue EVER be decided in your favor! You will never defeat it through the Supreme Court!

Seth, a living microscopic

Seth, a living microscopic human embryo is a potential human being not an actual human being such as the pregnant mother. It is the mother's freedom which you violate when you forbid abortion. You justify violation of the mother's liberty to save the life of the embryo or fetus.

There is no question that the fertilized ovum or embryo is alive. The question is when does that potential human being become an actual human being?

You don't seem to care that you are violating the right to freedom and liberty of the mother. It is her choice whether to maintain the pregnancy or not because it is her life and her decision, not the State's.

I contend that it is meaningless to attribute rights to the embryo or fetus before it is born.

It is the sole responsibility of the pregnant woman to decide whether to continue to pregnancy or not. It is certainly not anyone else's decision. You have no right to determine one way or the other whether a pregnant woman should remain pregnant or not.

No Man's need constitutes an obligation on the part of another man to fulfill that need.

The difference between you

The difference between you and I is that you think the mother has the right to end life. I do not.

No one has the right to kill someone else, no matter the circumstances.

The signers of the Declaration of Independence believed that we were created by God with inalienable rights, rights that people like you unashamedly wish to withhold from the unborn.

And you are right, no one has the right to decide whether or not to let the child live, except for the giver of that life, God. And unlike our forefathers, those like yourself wish to give the mother rights which they don't have in the first place.

It is a mistake to think that the liberty movement will ever liberate people via economic or foreign policy changes.

As long as the liberty movement does not take a stand against the war against the unborn, the liberty movement will never be a true movement of freedom.

A ZYGOTE IS NOT A PERSON!!!!!

A ZYGOTE IS NOT A PERSON!!!!!

In 2005, 2007, 2009, and

In 2005, 2007, 2009, and 2011, Paul introduced the Sanctity of Life Act, which would have defined life as beginning at conception at the Federal level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Pau...

Ron Paul says "Unless we understand…we must protect life, we cannot protect liberty."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkAsLPrnJGc&feature=player_em...

For some reason this issue was important enough for Ron Paul to repeatedly make a stand.

Please Check Out the Libertarians for Life

Libertarians for Life, www.L4L.org, offers some of the best writing ever done on abortion.

Especially striking is Doris Gordon's "Abortion and Rights: Applying Libertarian Principles Correctly."

I urge everyone, no matter what side of the issue they're on, to read that article and think about it.

Mary Meehan

Allow me to hit ya with some Ron Paul knowledge

Pro-Choice is what the "Federal" government should be. It does NOT have the right to regulate abortion in ANY state, let alone ALL of them.

If your voting on state candidates, then yes, you should be voting pro-life(if that's your ideal.)

I believe Ron Paul believed this as well, he ran as a pro-choice candidate, however he personally is Pro-Life and when asked responded as such. This was one of the first issues that drew me to him and showed me the difference between a politician and a statesman.

I agree with you that this is

I agree with you that this is Ron Paul's position. I disagree with it. I disagree with it now more than ever.

However, unborn children are endowed with the unalienable right to live by their Creator.

I agree with Ron Paul on almost everything, but in terms of abortion his views on state's rights lead him down the wrong path.

States rights do not supercede those rights endowed to us by our Creator, as our forefathers believed.

This may be Ron Paul's position, but it is the wrong position because it puts government structure above basic human rights.