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Please help me formulate a defense against mandatory vaccination.

Hello DP community. The hospital I work for has recently implemented a mandatory annual influenza vaccination policy for all employees. I have stated my objection to this policy on the grounds that an employer does not have the right to mandate medical therapy or treatment of employees.

I have been called to testify before the ethics committee of one of the largest medical centers in the country this next week to defend this position. I would like to ask for some assistance in coming up with the best defense I can. To me it just makes sense, but I have a feeling that will not quite cut it.

Can someone help me formulate a response perhaps grounded in western philosophy. The key theme seems to be that each human being has a right to their life and has the ultimate authority of deciding what goes into their body or not. Perhaps the committee will say sure they do and they are welcome to quit their job if they don't want to follow our directions. I don't know. What are your thoughts?

The only position I will be able to defend is that an employer cannot mandate injection of a medication as a condition of employment. Please do not tell me how bad vaccines are or cancer viruses or anything like that. If you want to help... stick to this one issue.




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Truckers do not have "medical ethics boards" do they?

There is a professional code of conduct in medicine. The notion that professional healthcare providers are being denied the right to say "No" to an invasive procedure is patently against that code.
If the company insists on violating their employees like this, what makes you think the patients rights will be honored?
You are comparing apples to oranges, and it is driving you down a very slippery slope with no runaway ramp.

This is the article that got my posting privileges revoked:
http://bklim.newsvine.com/_news/2013/05/12/18212165-dr-stan-...

Gary Null

Speaking against mandatory vaccines in NY. There is some good information here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3XlJB7J5-o

You sounds as though you

You sounds as though you believe you have some kind of Right to your job, and that your employer has some kind of obligation to employ you.

I don't think I should have to do anything at work. Can someone help me come up with a defense for this? Isn't forcing someone to work, isn't that slavery???

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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

From a free market stand point...

it is a bad policy. It is similiar to a resturant putting out a sign saying "we will not serve blacks". A business can do it, but will most definitely go out of business. No law needed.

Same with this hospital. Most people who object to vaccines are educated and well read; and they will leave and go elsewhere. So then, the employed at this particular hospital will, shall we say have a low IQ. I wonder if the mercury in vaccines has anything to do with that? Things that make you go hmmmm. Thus, because of it's substandard personal, this particular hospital will have people dying of basic things like staph infections constantly. Which insues things like lawsuits, big payouts, and eventually shutting down the facilty.

However, healthcare is not free market in the US. It is severely subsidized by the taxpayer, so this could go on for awhile.

LOL... Thank you!!

Perfect summation of the point. Well done. :)

You sound as though...

you are non-thinking smartass whose brain can't process subtleties.

I am just as much a principled libertarian as anybody but:

1) The forum topic is not asking that a private group be forced to do anything under duress of law. They are asking for argumentation to be voluntarily presented before an ethics panel. Get a grip bro. You have this Taliban mojo going on.

2) The concept of medical personnel being forced to take vaccinations (even at the loss of licensure) is backed philosophically and by a form of precedence in the Model Health Acts. The "battle", in this instance for no forced vaccines at a private place, cannot be fully disengaged from the LAWS on the books that are poised to force health care workers to take vaccines under threat of loss of CAREER.

Also, most hospitals are quasi-governmental. They are not fully private. A good percentage of hospitals are fully run by a government.

Stop beating up people that are engaged in fighting for their freedoms. Go get your rabies shots and quit embarrassing libertarians... :)

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Your post has nothing to do

Your post has nothing to do with what I posted.

1) The title of the post, "mandatory vaccinations", is inaccurate. The vac's are voluntary, if you want to keep your job, volunteer for them.

2) "I have stated my objection to this policy on the grounds that an employer does not have the right to mandate medical therapy or treatment of employees." An employer DOES have the right to require people to work, and to require them to get vac's.

3) "The key theme seems to be that each human being has a right to their life and has the ultimate authority of deciding what goes into their body or not." Absolutely, each human being can refuse to vac's and find other employment.

4) "The only position I will be able to defend is that an employer cannot mandate injection of a medication as a condition of employment." I agree, this is really the only thing that can be defended. I would also like to be able to have the defense that I shouldn't have to work as condition of employment, and I'll likely get just as far with my defense of "mandatory labor is slavery" as this defense of vac's.

BTW, I don't think that if I voluntarily accept employment, and my employer mandates that I work, that I am being forced into slavery. Neither do I think that if I voluntary accept employment in healthcare field, and my employer mandates vaccines, that I am being forced to take vaccinations. There is a choice, and the choice is entirely mine.

Those who oppose thermasol vac's should know that the majority of the population is indifferent to it due to a lack of awareness. If the medical community refused vaccinations, even, especially, if that meant quitting their jobs, it would begin to raise suggest, "hey, if the doctor's and nurses refuse these things...if they won't inject it in themselves, you ain't injecting it in me either". Whereas, if someone is inquisitive about the safety of these vac's, "Every nurse, doctor, even janitor here at our hospital takes these shots. Do you think we would be giving it to our own workers if they were not safe?".

I don't take vaccinations. The author of post seems to think that the employer has an obligation to hire, and that the employee has the right to refuse employer requirements. This defense is bogus. The employee does have the right to decide what goes into their own body, and the employer does have the right to say, "sorry, we're going to have to find someone else to fill your position".

The author is also aware that another defense is needed...

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

haha

the irony is your post had nothing to do with the OP. thanks for a laugh.

So let me get this straight -

So let me get this straight - it is okay by you for private companies to demand violations of your Constitutional and inalienable rights as terms for employment? No individual should be made to choose between their natural rights as a term of their employment. In my opinion that demand by an employer is actually a violation of the law and if the general public were not so brainwashed as to believe that vaccinations and innoculations work and are good then they would clearly see this violation for what it is and never let this BS get as far as it has.

Constitutional rights apply

Constitutional rights apply to the government. If you come in my house and say things I don't want to hear, I have the right to remove you from my house, the second amendment does not apply to you in my house, it does in public. I also have the right to refuse to allow anyone in my house who has not been vaccinated, someone who is not wearing deodorant, someone who smokes, someone who wears red underwear...

That vaccinations do not work, there really is no clear evidence that they do in fact prevent anything, just as there is no clear evidence that they don't prevent anything. I personally don't use them, as far as the flu, elderberry test suggest that it is far more effective at preventing flu than a vaccination. But still, there is no proof either way that elderberry does or does not prevent flu.

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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

when you say remove...

do you mean you have a right to inject, under your roof, with any foreign substance of your choosing? And if they die, what is the recourse? Unless, you threaten them to sign a consent form to absolve you from any responsibility.

Confessions given under coercion is in admissible in court and for good reason. Why is this not any different?

Leave your job. That is the

Leave your job. That is the ultimate power you have over your employer mandating you to get this shot.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Sadly it's not like

this is a one case basis where he can just go to the next hospital and not worry about this issue. This is popping up in Hospitals all around and many are starting to implement this mandate on their employees. This is serious, and you should never suggest to someone to just give up, I say if you are going to lose your job over it go out with a big damn fight.

Fine, fight them. But if you

Fine, fight them. But if you lose, and don' twant to get the vaccination, then go to another field.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

One last step.

Fight them, and if you lose, just refuse. make them fire you.

I'd just say - I'm not going to do this and I've got a lot of work to do today, so should I go do my work or are you going to insist on escalating this little situation.

This

That's what got me at my last job. Not for vaccinations but other bs rules. They built up a file and when I went on vacation lost all paperwork and said I never showed up for a week.

But they gave me 3 mos severance. Kinda weird if you ask me. Why give severance to someone who didn't show up for a week. I said I disagreed to the severance and was told I had no choice. I think I did but I was more focused on finding a new job. Now that same a-hole in HR is being investigated for withholding workman's comp. Found a job within a month where I wanted to work and where I LOVE to work and the owner/my boss is a libertarian and AnCap who doesn't even know those terms.

He thinks he's just a republican. It was great. I saw his primary vote by mail on his desk and asked who he was going to vote for. He said "I really like that Ron Paul guy." I get along well with crotchety old men who abhor authority figures.

I love working for someone like that. Where I worked in corporate america was horrible. Truly horrible. I hope I never have to work as a wage slave for corporate america again. Only good thing it did was provide free training and a springboard.

Alot of good ammunition already on the Daily Paul

http://www.dailypaul.com/105388/us-nurses-union-wins-legal-a...

"Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
Mark Twain

They first tried it in Ny State

http://www.dailypaul.com/109148/ny-health-care-workers-revol...

Heres what the judge said. I would use this arguement.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/16/judge-halts-man...

"Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
Mark Twain

I wish I could remember

Whoever was pushing this in Ny was found to have ties in someway to the makers of the vaccine.

"Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
Mark Twain

This should be pretty easy for anyone in the medical profession

to understand:

"Mass prescription" without treating each patient on a case-by-case basis taking into account their own medical history and current condition, is gross negligence.

It is considered malpractice and is grounds for terminating a medical license.

Therefore, "mandating" people take vaccines, differentiating who must and who does not have to do so, based on employment status is a blatant "mass prescription" act that by its nature completely ignores the individual patient and his or her medical history and condition. The criteria in this case for determining the efficacy of a vaccine is not medical condition and the safety of the patient but rather something completely not related to the individual's health - employment status.

If this prescription is issued in the form of an order(meaning not voluntary), especially by non-licensed individuals, than those individuals can be prosecuted for multiple counts, one for each employee so affected, of practicing medicine without a license.

If the prescription/order is issued by someone with a medical license, it can and should be revoked.

The act constitutes gross negligence, wanton public endangerment, and assault. And depending on possible side effects of the vaccinations, including symptoms of the viruses being vaccinated for—attempted murder. This last count is especially true if the known and expected death rate as a result of taking the vaccine, and/or contracting the virus and then dying is likely to exceed 1 individual due to the number of employees forced to received the vaccine.

The wanton public endangerment charge is due to the fact that this order/prescription is made without regard to how the vaccine will affect those required to take it, how many people will be injured as a result of the vaccines, including how many may suffer death.

Anyone issuing such an order, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and be sentenced to the appropriate time in prison, one count for each offense, for each employee so affected or potentially affected.

Additionally, I'd investigate this as a likely Act of Terrorism, or perhaps Biological Warfare. This is a consideration depending on the extent of the order (number of employees affected) and combining this with known rates of side effects and/or death. If the act were committed by a non-state actor, they'd be in custody immediately; if by a foreign government, we'd declare war with haste. The result should not be any different based on who takes the action. The result of the action would be the same. The intent is irrelevant to criminality. It is only relevant in sentencing.

I was going to put an suggestion

until I scrolled down and read this comment. From a legal standpoint this makes perfect sense. I don't see how they can force you to take a vaccine without any concern on how it could affect your health? What if you hold allergies to the type of vaccine?

There are hospitals around back towards my home state that are adopting this as well with flu season coming around. I just don't see how someone can mandate you to put something in your body which could jeopardize your health. I just don't understand why a hospital would create such a policy. If they are afraid of possible legal implications of workers getting sick or something can't they at the very least offer a waiver saying they are not responsible if such happens?

How is it different?

What is the difference between shooting a lead pellet into a person and shooting them with a mixture of bacteria, viruses, poisons and who knows what other filth.

Whatever is imagined to be for the General Welfare can not trump our unalienable Rights not our Rights as described in the Constitution.

Free includes debt-free!

Corbett – “Mandatory” Vaccinations (and how to avoid them)

Corbett Report Radio 234 – “Mandatory” Vaccinations (and how to avoid them)

http://www.corbettreport.com/corbett-report-radio-234-mandat...

James talks to Alan Phillips, JD of VaccineRights.com and PandemicResponseProject.com about the tricky legal minefield surrounding vaccine exemptions and waivers in the US. We also discuss pandemic emergency response and medical martial law, as well as what people can do to obtain reliable and accurate information about saying “no” to vaccines.

They Should be the ones Defending THEIR Actions!

Not only does refusal of mandatory medication not need a justification because of Constitutional rights, but your body is part of you and anyone doing ANYTHING with you that you do not consent to should be considered a forcible act of violence which would be a violation of law. In other words, this would be "assault".

Injecting their substance into you without your consent is paramount to a case for rape.

If they say you can just quit your job to avoid being assaulted/raped when you say "no" (and "no" means "NO!"), then, in addition to rape this is paramount to extortion and should be punished to the full extent of the law.

You either have your job as-is without forced medication or you have a case for assault, rape, and extortion.

I'm fairly certain they'd rather you keep your job.

*

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Adailypaul.com+flu#q=si...

November 6th 2012 I voted for Dr.Ron Paul
"We must remember, elections are short-term efforts. Revolutions are long-term projects." ~ Ron Paul

Let's do a poll.

How many here know a family member or friend who has died from the "FLU"? And of those who have died how many were in the care of a hospital and how many were at home?

After asking 5 people I know who are 45 or older the current answer is ZERO. That doesn't seem to jive with the terrifying CDC numbers.

Actually,

my brother died from the flu when he was 3 years old in 1964. My Mom says (I wasn't born until 1970) he seemed to be getting better (up playing a little that day) and his fever just spiked that night, she took him to the hospital and he died - the offical cause of death is type-A influenza. I've never know anyone else to die or even require hospitalization due to the flu.

I'm not advocating getting a flu shot - we don't get them in my family, not even my elderly parents - I'm just responding to your poll.

People do die from it but I would guess the CDC numbers are inflated. For example, if someone has AIDS and they get the flu and die, is the flu the cause of death or AIDS? Just curious about that.

Thanks for your response

It is sad to hear about your brother dying and at such a young age. And even though you didn't know him I imagine it must weigh on your mind from time to time that you never had the chance. I want you to know that I do not belittle that fact one bit.

I agree and do not deny that there are some who die from the flu. But the point I am trying to make here in all sincerity is simply that the risk of dying from the flu is blown way out of proportion. I know quite a few people who have died or almost died from medical errors as I would bet most here have also. But I and others I know personally cannot think of a single person who has died or even almost died from the flu. Generally otherwise healthy people do not die from flu.

The elderly or the immune deficient are the ones most at risk of dying from the flu but honestly they are at risk of dying from many illnesses that otherwise healthy people generally are not.

Thanks

I didn't take it the wrong way - I understand the point you were trying to make, like I said we don't get flu shots.

I believe, like any other medicine, people should understand the risks of vaccines and weigh that with the benefits. I can't remember the last time I had the flu and my children (12 &13) have only had it once, so we don't get the shot.

In the case of more serious diseases, we vaccinate. We like to travel outside of the country, so I feel the benefit outweighs the risk.

Poll results so far. One (1) deaths reported

From the flu itself. Four (4) medically induced from flu shots.

My condolences to those who have died. This is not intended to make light of the deaths of those people.