22 votes

Please help me formulate a defense against mandatory vaccination.

Hello DP community. The hospital I work for has recently implemented a mandatory annual influenza vaccination policy for all employees. I have stated my objection to this policy on the grounds that an employer does not have the right to mandate medical therapy or treatment of employees.

I have been called to testify before the ethics committee of one of the largest medical centers in the country this next week to defend this position. I would like to ask for some assistance in coming up with the best defense I can. To me it just makes sense, but I have a feeling that will not quite cut it.

Can someone help me formulate a response perhaps grounded in western philosophy. The key theme seems to be that each human being has a right to their life and has the ultimate authority of deciding what goes into their body or not. Perhaps the committee will say sure they do and they are welcome to quit their job if they don't want to follow our directions. I don't know. What are your thoughts?

The only position I will be able to defend is that an employer cannot mandate injection of a medication as a condition of employment. Please do not tell me how bad vaccines are or cancer viruses or anything like that. If you want to help... stick to this one issue.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

As below.

Your last sentence was meant to be sarcastic but YES, that's exactly correct.

And you're free to not use the businesses of anyone you morally disagree with.

Yep. It sucks but that is the libertarian position.

The situation is complicated because of government interference in medicine, but hypothetically speaking, if hospitals were all private, they all should have the right to discriminate employees based on whether they get vaccinated or not. I don't agree with this mindset and I think it is foolish, but I also think that it would never happen.

It is very similar to the clause in the Civil Rights Act that says employers can't discriminate based on race, ethnicity, or disability. Progressives and others furiously attack libertarians who dare question parts of the Civil Rights Act with the argument that "if businesses can legally discriminate then they all will!" but this is not how it transpires.

As you note, this isn't the result. It won't be all or nothing.

So there's no danger there.

Note, I'm the one who suggested moving on.

I tend to agree with you

But I think the Civil Rights Act still applies to the hospital.

"a) It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer (1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin; or (2) to limit, segregate, or classify his employees or applicants for employment in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. (b) It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employment agency to fail or refuse to refer for employment, or otherwise to discriminate against, any individual because of his race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, or to classify or refer for employment any individual on the basis of his race, color, religion, sex, or national origin."

.

Hear, O Israel: YHUH our God YHUH one. And thou shalt love YHUH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

same here

I sympathize with your situation as we have the same here. Your post pretty much sums up the situation and I don't have any straight forward advice because they pretty much shoot down any straight forward argument... I hope someone is able to come up with something helpful and I will pass it on to others if they do~

Garnet
Daughter of 1776 American Revolutionists

Contact Price-Pottenger

Contact Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation (ppnf.org). See if its board members can help you if your situation gets hairy. Some of those board members are dentists, doctors and nurses; its president is a nurse, I think. I want to say a member or two wrote a book on vaccine dangers. Ppnf sells books on that topic, at least, and a few physicians on its behalf do interviews. I think most people of the foundation know what's going on. Perhaps someone there can get you in contact with people who can be legal recourse too. Good luck, Z.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of thinking. -Me

Study nature, not books. -Walton Forest Dutton, MD, in his 1916 book whose subject is origin (therefore what all healing methods involve and count on), simple and powerful.

My recommendation: get the flu shot.

I would argue that your employer has the right to mandate anything at all as a condition of employment, and you have the right to quit for any reason. Now I may not know the employment law/legal bullshit of the state where you live, but morally that's how I see it.

Unrelated to the right of your employer to mandate a vaccine, it make sense for them to do so. Hell, they'd probably be legally liable for NOT mandating it since they're a damn hospital.

Lastly, (and this is to everyone): PLEASE get the flu vaccine! It's not a crazy conspiracy. It's just a vaccine. It will significantly decrease your chance of getting the flu, and it CAN NOT make you sick unless you get the live attenuated version up the nose, in which case you may get a "cold" (mild upper respiratory infection) from it. If you get the shot, you CAN NOT get sick from it. Worst case: you get some mild arm pain for a day and then you still have a potential chance (albeit much less) to catch a different strain of the flu.

How many of you got infected w/ polio in the last few decades? Smallpox? Anyone? No? Do you know why? VACCINES ARE GOOD.

Okay, end of rant. :)

Do you have a medical license to make that recommendation?

I recommend someone arrest your ass for practicing medicine without a license, assault, and attempted murder.

Paid government shill.

No doubt. None.

really?

You need to seriously do some research into vaccines before calling them 'GOOD' .... Seriously.

Maybe it's not a black and white thing, but there is PLENTY of gray to go around and if you research who funded a lot of 'research' into vaccination, you'll see early on its the same psychos involved in systematic attack on liberty. Eugenicists.

So, don't go off saying vaccines are GOOD just because you think they are responsible for the "eradicating" of smallpox and polio.

So, you recommend us to get

So, you recommend us to get the shot of formaldehyde?
Man, are you crazy?
Polio? Why dont you check the symptoms of polio and symptoms of MS. Tell me it's not polio covered by different name. Have you heard of MS epidemic?
VACCINES ARE GOOD. They definitely affected your brain negatively.

I had to get one too. I decided it wasn't worth the battle.

I'm uncomfortable with the ethics of this force and the attitude of "everyone has to do this medical procedure," but ultimately I decided that the clinical effectiveness of the flu vaccine versus the risks of harm, and even worse the time hassles and the risk of losing my job, so to speak.

I have done a small case report on myself, and it might be coincidence and it might not be.

3 years ago I got the vaccine - no flu
2 years ago I did not get it - 4 day banger
1 year ago I got the vaccine - no flu

My advice is pick your battles carefully. If this is the one you want, good luck.

**Seriously some of you anti-vaccine people need to start studying some immunolgy. The OP might lose his job and for what? Because of an irrational fear about vaccines? The science is not on your side. Is this worth losing his job? Is not paying mandatory income tax worth jail? Is refusing millilimeter wavescanner and patdown wirth not flying? Where are the oriorities? He works in a hospital. Sheesh.

Is there a known rate of particular side effects from this or

any other vaccine?

Is there a known rate of people who contract the very virus being inoculated for along with attendant effects/condition?

Is as a result of either side-effects or virus contraction, is there a known rate of death for this or any other vaccine?

Yes on all counts.

Therefore, the decision to not take a vaccine, is not "irrational fear" but a decision not to subject oneself to a KNOWN RISK.

You could jump out of an airplane with a parachute. You might live, you might not. Even though there is no "known rate" of chute failure or other catastrophe, no one would consider it irrational to avoid doing so. If there WAS a known rate, there would be no question, avoiding such action would be entirely a rational decision.

And don't even try to bring in unrelated subjects of "income tax."

That has ZERO to do with vaccinations.

Your act of doing so, lends credence to the idea that you are a paid shill.

If you aren't, and you don't wish to be considered as one, I humbly suggest you stay on point.

Some of you folks make me sad.

I knew... just KNEW that I would see this kind of crazyness come out if I hit y'all up with some science. And here we are. Whenever I see something like "contrails are gonna kill you" or "the govenment made vaccines to kill you" or other nonsense it's depressing, and especially depressing when I comment on why, for example, it's a good idea to GET VACCINATED, and I'm deluged with comments like "government shill", etc. You guys do realize it's crazyness like this that makes us all look bad, right? The loony shit gets associated with anyone who just wants freedom from government. Please, cut it out. You're depressing me.

First off: anyone on this site couldn't possibly make the argument that an employer does not have the right to mandate ANYTHING as a condition of voluntary employment. If you don't want to do something as part of your job, then quit!! This is a pretty basic tenant of libertarianism and freedom of association. So that takes care of the "is it unfair that my boss is making me get the flu vaccine?" question. Frankly, it doesn't matter if you're in a hospital for this argument. Should a football player be able to say "is it fair that I get injured in my job? do I have any legal recourse?" .... NO! You don't like the terms of employment, quit!

Second: as someone else here already posted... please read up on immunology. Frankly, I don't care if you're an adult and you want to get the flu, or measels/mumps/rubella... whatever. Hell, if you're quick and you get to the Congo soon enough you might even be able to catch Polio before it gets eradicated completely. Sorry you missed the opportunity to get small pox, it's gone.

But what is REALLY depressing is seeing infants that don't get their immunizations. Had a moron dad like that just yesterday actually, but at least I was able to convince him to let his kid get the damn tetanus shot after he got a lac on his foot running around outside. ... I mean, honestly. What the hell is wrong with some of you? Would you rather a kid in the United States died of tetanus?? In the 21st century??? Do y'all realize that some of this shit is insanely easy to vaccinate against but extremely difficult and sometimes impossible to treat if you get it??

Some of you need to wake up on this issue, if only for your kids. Herd Immunity is what happens when enough people around you are immunized against something such that you end up never being exposed to it. I.E. if you're the only non vaccinated person in a room filled with 99 people that got the MMR series, then you're likely not going to catch measles if one person walks into the room w/ it. But we're losing the herd immunity people. Too many of you guys aren't vaccinating your kids, and we're seeing a resurgence of diseases that we should have wiped out! For example: measles is extremely contagious. You need around 96% vaccination to get herd immunity! That means if only 5% of you guys aren't vaccinated, you'll likely end up with a damn outbreak of measles the first time some kid from some random third world country comes over on a flight w/ measles. This is totally unacceptable. Again, at least it's only the ignorant (or the unfortunate children of the ignorant) that get the disease, but it's still depressing as hell.

Again, big time libertarian here. If you want to get sick cause of your beliefs in ... whatever... crazyness, then fine. But when your kid dies of some stupid disease that they could have been easily immunized against, then sure, Darwin wins. And that's great, your idiot genes are gone. But they're gone because an innocent kid died.

Please. Stop this insanity.

You're doing it again. I didn't say anything about

chemtrails, or that vaccines were designed by government to kill you.

NEVER. Prove I said it. I want to see the link.

Stop with your strawman nonsense.

Stay on point.

To you're #1 - I agree. People can work elsewhere. I just don't think it's necessary to require non-essential personnel to be vaccinated. The risk of exposure is lower, maybe even practically non-existent. Otherwise, by your logic, nothing should enter the hospital unless it passes through a decontamination chamber and no relatives should be allowed to visit unless they too have been vaccinated, and no patient may be admitted without being vaccinated. Good luck with that.

#2 - Nothing has been "eradicated." Something is declared with this status when the deaths from those being vaccinated match or exceed those not vaccinated. Thus it is presumed there can be no better result.

What is really depressing is seeing infants and toddlers go catatonic because some jack-hole demanded the kid got 37 vaccinations in one day or a short period. What is really depressing is seeing a teenager or young college student paralyzed or dying because some do-gooder decided she had to have gardasil.

Spare me your tears. Vaccines cause damage. Not always, just like what they vaccinate for doesn't always. When you subject people to KNOWN rates of injury and death, you are advocating evil.

You can justify it all you want on the unknowable risk of not doing it. The evil isn't in the damage. It's in the fact you KNOW you are going to cause a certain amount of it and you advocate it anyway.

And your last line applies equally well to you.

If you are so libertarian, might I suggest leaving other people the hell alone?

Oh yes the "I must be a paid shill" accusation

That is a favorite around here. After all, only a paid shill would disagree, IMMA RIGHT? I used the tax dodging example of a fight that might not be worth it. Personally I don't like being forced to get a flu vaccine (even though I would probably get one anyway) but the ridiculous fight I would have to go through with the administration is not worth it the end consequence of 'not being vaccinated this season.' Plus I would feel like a huge jackass if I fought for a waiver and ended up getting the flu and had to take off work. And if a bunch of my patients ended up getting the flu, and it was linked to me, I would be liable.

Many reasons for not getting a vaccine are irrational. There are some people paranoid that vaccines are being used for genocide and other nonsense. (Yes I have heard that Bill Gates wants depopulation and I know he funds for 3rd mass vaccinations, but he is not depopulating through mass vaccinations, that is ridiculous). The autism link is unfounded. Some people think that vaccines cause people to be more susceptible to the pathogen they were immunized against.

An extremely rare complication of attenuated vaccines is that the virus can reverse to virulence, but the probability of this occurring is far lower than getting the disease in the first place, especially with the flu vaccine. If this one in a million risk is too risky for someone, then it is logical for them to oppose the vaccination. However, I usually hear extravagant pseudoscience being claimed by the anti-vaccinators.

The paid shill comment had to do with introducing something

off topic as a strawman.

If that wasn't your intention, I recant my accusation. It was only made in that context.

Make them sign.....

A waiver. The same ones parents have they're docs sign to certify the vaccines work and they are totally safe with no side effects for their kids. Do some on line searches for vaccine waivers, there out there.

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

Confusion.Why ask the

Confusion.

Why ask the employer to sign a waiver for her taking a vaccine? :-/

So the employer can waive accountability of wrong doing to her health if she suffers from the vaccine?? Wouldn't she want the hospital to sign a contract stating the vaccines will cause her NO harm and that if it does harm her that the hospital will pay for her recovery and her time off of work for her recovery? Corner the people who are board members, the decision makers, not the employees, right?

Please explain. Thank you.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of thinking. -Me

Study nature, not books. -Walton Forest Dutton, MD, in his 1916 book whose subject is origin (therefore what all healing methods involve and count on), simple and powerful.

On the contrary, it isn't a waiver you want. It's assumption of

liability.

If the vaccine is safe, with no side-effects, then the employer should have no problems assuming ALL liability for ANY damages caused as a result of being forced to take it.

According to the shills on here, there is no risk, so there won't ever be any liability.

Any employer with two brain cells to rub together would know better.

The one thing you don't want to do yourself is sign a waiver if taking the vaccine.

On the contrary, if they are forcing you to do this, you don't have to sign anything.

They don't need your consent.

And if there is no risk, then there is no need to waive anything. The act of making you also sign a waiver or indemnity clause, is proof there is a risk and that they are acting with willful disregard for your health and safety and as a result, with wanton disregard for public safety.

Well said, samadamscw! I

Well said, samadamscw! I agree!

My argument aligns with yours: If anything, make the decision makers sign a paper (read: a contract) to guarantee the hospital [but, really, the decision makers (because we don't want to socialize but personalize problems, right?)] pays for wrong doing to her.

Otherwise, as you said, she need not sign anything other than -- and what follows is tenuous -- a waiver to not sue the hospital or hold anyone at the hospital accountable for her getting the disease the vaccines are supposed to prevent (which they won't prevent but could cause that disease or other disease or weaken the body so that it succumbs to something later).

To Z, buy this milk, raw milk from Organic Pastures. This milk is medicine. The dairy man of OP is Mark McAfee. He's a good guy. Because the government has been after him, he, to prove his milk reaches California state standards, ones well below his, now employees scientists to run tests on his milk regularly, I think weekly. OP's milk will enhance immunity, fortify the stomach and intestines, clean blood and will reduce or -- if the outdoor environment instead of your living environment or something inside you, say, dentistry, is causing the allergies -- will eliminate your allergies. OP's milk is milk, not white liquid referred to as milk.

Milk, yes, milk, does a body good.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of thinking. -Me

Study nature, not books. -Walton Forest Dutton, MD, in his 1916 book whose subject is origin (therefore what all healing methods involve and count on), simple and powerful.

Documented proof

Towards any future litigation in case something does indeed happen.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

ACinMA's picture

These folks may be able to

These folks may be able to assist you..
http://www.nvic.org/

And maybe this http://www.vaccinerights.com/healthcareworkers.html

Fall River, Bristol County, Massachusetts

ℛ[ƎVO˩]ution
"When one gets in bed with government,
one must expect the diseases it spreads."
‎"It's not like I'm a powerful person. My ideas are."

Webinar on Valid Vaccine Exemptions

Dr. Mayer Eisenstein MD,JD,MPH, uses the "Personal Religious Exemption" granted by the Constitution:

"I do not believe God allows human beings to inject foreign substances into their bodies." He shows you what specific passages to quote from the Bible.

You can listen to the free hour long webinar at the link below. The first 8 minutes of the webinar is his anti-vaccine stance as a practicing physician/lawyer.

Youtube Unlisted Video

How to Write a Valid Vaccine Waiver
http://www.doctoreisenstein.com/?page_id=205

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbUsTUG59Yc

Here is the webinar on MP3. You need to register with a name and email.

http://homefirst.com/cms/index.php/health-info/media/webinar...

Recently in the News:

R.I. becomes first state to mandate flu shots for health-care workers.

http://news.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/2012/10/ri-b...

"Workers can be exempted from the requirement for documented medical reasons. They can also sign a form saying that they refuse to get immunized. But those who are not immunized will have to wear a surgical mask for each patient contact during "a period when flu is widespread," as declared by the health director."

"With enough of us, around the world, we’ll not just send a strong message opposing the privatization of knowledge — we’ll make it a thing of the past." ~ Aaron Swartz

SteveMT's picture

Say that it is against your religion.

Hints for Religious Exemptions to Immunization

Please read the text below before you download, print, or use the sample religious exemption letter and support materials provided in the following link:

Sample Religious Exemption Letter and Supporting Documentation

Refer to the statutes. The laws require that immunization must conflict with the tenets and practices of a recognized or organized religion of which you are an adherent or member. However, the law does not require you to name a religion at all. In fact, disclosing your religion could cause your religious exemption to be challenged.
More at:
http://www.vaccineinfo.net/exemptions/relexemptlet.shtml

Same crap happening all over the country.

I am in the sticks and this year we are having to sign a release if we say no to the shots basically saying we are knowingly risking pt's health by not taking their terribly spooky 3 strain flu virus shot.I have seen paperwork stating that next year the feds through the cdc will be witholding federal dollars from the hospitals who do not comply with this tyranny of mandatory experimental flu shots.
So it looks to me that the hospitals will do whatever the cdc tells them to do at this point to try to get as much of those federal tax dollars to fill there huge deficits.
The public is not aware of how many hospitals are operating in the red hoping for the economy to turn and revenue to increase-no one is holding their breath at this point-there is no real economic recovery and we all know this but it is starting to sink in to everyone now --this is not good for anyone but the tyrannical ever encroaching government and the people who own the Pharma co's who produce this stuff.
This stuff to me is getting really out of hand.Unfortunately most just do what there told and make those of us who assert our rights stand out like sore thumbs.
It's understandable and acceptable for your hepatitis shots and such but the annual flu shot is hit or miss and I'm glad I didn't do their damn swine flu paranoia shot last year but they are doubling down on this issue more and more--ffn fascist bullies.I'm preparing for what appears to be inevitable job loss if this escalates but I shall assert my rights.
I will not go quietly.I suspect I am not alone.
May our spirits of liberty rise to this occasion and assert our basic right to say no to foreign substances being forced into our bodies so we can have jobs.
How much will the home of the brave and land of the free put up with this tyrannical corporate fascist sh"t.
I say enoughs enough the revolution is now!
May our efforts for human liberty be multiplied and realized.
Godspeed and Godbless you my fellow travelers.
America is the new friggin twilight zone.

Opresso De Liber
Life,Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness!
Conscious of Our Creator and Source of our Liberties.

Quit your job! (if you have to)

I believe that trust in GOD always takes care of you whether you realize it or not.

You will be rewarded for your trust in ways that you cannot yet see.

Make GOD proud, Tell Satan to kiss your arse! It will feel good:)

Slaves with "benefits" are still slaves.

With love,

In Liberty

Contact Mary Tocco for some advice...

www.ChildhoodShots.com

I'm fairly sure she can help with some approaches that will allow you to opt out. Give it a try.

Restore the Foundations - "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?"

It's the arrogance that bugs me

first off, if it's so great, why do you have to force people to do it?

but mainly, to me, it's the arrogance that you must inject a foreign substance into your body for your own good... and what if you are wrong.

that probably doesn't help much, but I bumped it for you :)

I would argue discrimination.

People of this "free country" are allowed to hold onto and practice their beliefs as long as it does not infringe on the life, liberty or property of any other person. No matter how noble the intention, once a body infringes upon that right, they metaphorically open Pandora's Box to a whole host off issues. It sets a precedent for the future, from anything to mandating women of the workforce to take birth-control, or what type of food employees can eat, whether or not they can enjoy a beer after a hard days work, or a number of other issues. It may seem far fetched, but many would say that mandating employees to get vaccinated was far fetched. Those who fear contracting the flu are free to purchase a vaccine if they so choose, but why would you feel compelled to mandate it?

Or you can point out legal issues.

Say a group of employes receive a bad batch of the vaccine that they normally would not have had injected into themselves but were mandated to do so or it would have cost them their job. If someone get's sick (or a group gets sick) that could open the door for a major lawsuit that would cost the company lots of money. I can see it now in the headlines, "Employees Mandated to Get Flu Vaccine, Have Life Threatening Reactions Soon After Due To Bad Batch / Allergic Reactions, Employer Being Sued."

“When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.” – Dresden James