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Talk Show Icon Larry King to Moderate "3rd Party" Debate

"Larry King, the celebrated talk show host accustomed to A-list interview guests, has agreed to moderate a debate featuring a squad of minor-party presidential candidates."

http://seattletimes.com/html/politics/2019449345_apusthirdpa...

Your thoughts on the choice of moderator? Larry King is a household name, and his presence at this debate really helped attract more cameras!

http://freeandequal.org/category/debate/

Christina Tobin is the Chairwoman of the Free and Equal Foundation that is hosting the debate, if anyone reading this is in contact with anyone in the media who may like to interview Christina, please pass my phone number along to them and I'll line it up!

If you missed this debate, watch it here - http://freeandequal.org/updates/did-you-miss-the-debate-watc...

In Liberty, Zak Carter
206-501-9221
http://freeandequal.org/contact/

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Got an email not 5 minutes

Got an email not 5 minutes ago saying the venue has changed to the Hilton Chicago due to a larger audience.

url??

How come no one has provided details about the url?

I'd love to run our http://www.LivePoliticalChat.com chat app against the video stream but i cant find details about it online etc.

Geez, guys...Do some

Not a huge Larry King fan but at least he's an Atheist.

Even though he is like 100 years old...at least he uses logic and reason to form his opinions.

Oh great

So we can have a Talmudic Jew moderating debates so long as he's an atheist....

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5

What does that have to do with

anything? Geesh.

Nothing really ronpaul1fan

I just get blasted all the time for being a non-believer and I didn't think most would know LK is an atheist. We are not crazy people that are rudderless and have no "morals".

But you're right. Probably an irrelavent comment I made below. Sometimes I type before thinking...I just typed what I ws thinking because it popped into my head.

I understand completely.

I often insert my foot into my mouth from being overly passionate about some things. I dont' think it's appropriate for any candidate to wear his religion on his sleeve. If someone asks, make the statement and move on. Of course our religious (or not) upbringing influences our decision-making process, but leaders need to be objective in making decisions with wide-ranging effects. Thank the stars that Michelle Bachmann did not become the nominee.

Floydius's picture

it's called trolling. :)

it's called trolling. :)

edit:

re: the down-voting and the discussion above me, no offense was intended. "at least he uses logic and reason to form his opinions" attached to someone's being an atheist implies that non-atheists do not use logic and reason to form opinions.

That seems crafted to incite an emotional reaction, hence my comment.

Floydius - Non-Atheist's

Use logic and reason when making decsions in all areas of their lives except 1...the 1 in which they are convinced that an invisible being exists which has consciousness without material form, is all powerful and all knowing, is outside of time and space, the being doesn't intefere in the world (but sometimes it does interfere in the world), that (it) he gave his only son, that everyone who was there prior to (it) him wasn't moral, that devils exist and angels exsist...that heavens and other realms exist.

No way, no how, can someone believe such a tale without first shutting down the logical and rational part of their brain. Regardless of how hard the logical part of their mind trys to interject and help...they force those thoughts out of their mind and most have been convinced those thoughts come from "the devil".

I know what it feels like and how the thoughts present themselves because I was a believer for most of my adult life. Learning the truth about religion and the bible creates the exact same emotional reactions that all of us felt when we learned the truth about the FED, or that America is the biggest terrorist nation on the planet.

That stuff typically causes a crisis in our world view and creates a new and very uncomfortable reality which some call patriotism guilt.

It's hard enough accepting the realities about America. Most people just simply can't handle letting go of God too. No question it was tough for me, my wife, and my daughter but I NEVER would have believed once the pain passed I would eventually experience a new level of personal freedom I never knew exsisted. Things started making sense and irrational fears disappeared. I've never slept better since becoming an Atheist and even though I enjoy each and every day I am alive...I no longer fear death in the least.

BTW - here is a link to a video of Famous Non Religious People. I think it includes Larry King but I don't remember.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=n1O...

Floydius's picture

I certainly don't want to

I certainly don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into an existential debate about theology, but there are quite a few assumptions you've listed out there.

Also, you would have to disqualify RP from using logic to form opinions since he identifies himself as a believer. If that is the case, I don't know how you can support him given what you've written above.

I don't agree with everything Dr Paul believes

nor do I expect anyone to believe what I believe. Dr Paul and I do agree that everyone should be able to use their liberty as they want to as long as it doesn't hurt others or damage someone else's property.

Although I did vote for RP in the primary...I'm glad he was not nominated. The next president is going to go down in history as being at the helm when the great great depression happens. RP would be put in a no win situation if that happened and it would set back the liberty movement for decades if not longer. Freedom and capitalism would be blamed...and that's NOT what created all this mess.

Floydius's picture

My point is not to say you

My point is not to say you should live in unquestioned agreement to anything Dr. Paul believes. My point is that you have obviously reached many of the same conclusions as he has regarding liberty. Ostensibly, you think you've both used logic to do so. If believing in an invisible deity, etc., disqualifies one as a rational thinker, then Dr. Paul is equally disqualified.

I'm trying to point out that just because you haven't come to the same conclusions as I have about metaphysics doesn't mean we can't both have rational reasons for believing as we do. I think that's a discussion worth having, as well.

However, per your post, "No way, no how, can someone believe such a tale without first shutting down the logical and rational part of their brain." In that case, Dr. Paul has shut down the logical and rational part of his brain long ago, as have I, apparently.

Good Enough.

I encourage you to have the stones to do some research but I do understand that there is a large group of people who just need to believe in a God.

I'm not being a smart ass either. I broke all relations with my parents and sisters because they now all think I'm the devil. And for the record...I'm not the devil. :)

Cheers,

"And for the record...I'm not

"And for the record...I'm not the devil"

Yes you are!!!! (Don't worry, I am too.)

Floydius's picture

On that point, I agree with

On that point, I agree with you. If my beliefs are false, I'd much rather know it than live in ignorance. As Paul wrote, "If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."

I have spent a decent portion of my life looking at scripture and also thinking about whether it represents a true account. Not that this means I'm right about my beliefs, but I took 2 years worth of Koine Greek classes and 1.5 of ancient Hebrew during my university studies. All that to say that I don't take the question lightly.

I have some atheist friends who are very intelligent and whom I respect as logical thinkers -- I just disagree with their conclusions about theology.

I've yet to read any explanation of the universe, Christian or otherwise, that provides the answers to every one of my questions. I have to go on what I think to be the most likely truth based on the evidence I have to work with. So far, the accounts of Jesus of Nazareth still top my list.

I'm certainly willing to listen to other viewpoints and I hope I'll always be willing to keep an open mind.

So far the accounts of Jesus top you list?

If something you thought was going to happen or something you wanted to happen just kept on not happening…how long would you wait until you used your own brain to make a rational determination that whatever was suppose happen probably was just not going to happen?

How long would you wait for a bus before you decided it was not coming. An hour? A day? A week? A month? Jesus Christ has been supposing to come again for 2000 years. Jesus said that “No man will see death before I return”. I do not know any man 2000 years old do you?

Unless we stop brainwashing our children as they enter this world, the world will end. But, it’s not going to end by some sky ghost coming down and judging us…it’s going to end by some religious fanatic doing exactly what he believes is the right thing to do…kill and be killed in the name of God.

If someone said to you:

I am going to create man and woman with original sin. Then I'm going to impregnate a woman with myself as my child so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from the sin I originally condemned to you.

What would your reaction be?

Also, consider the Pope claims to be a very religious man. But let’s look at the reality. When participating in a parade the Pope rides in what is known as “The Pope mobile”. Nothing says "I trust in God' like 3 inches of bulletproof glass does it?

Floydius's picture

Sorry for the late reply --

Sorry for the late reply -- it's been a busy week or so here.

a) If Jesus said "I'm coming back at x time." and he didn't come, he would be proven fraudulent. The OT is clear that if a prophet makes claims that don't come to pass, said prophet was not sent by God. Jesus never made any claims as to the time of His return, at least not of which I'm aware.

That having been said, it has been a long time. However, there was a long time between the first messianic prophesies and the appearance of Jesus of Nazareth, so it's not exactly without precedent.

b) I'm pretty sure there's nowhere in scripture where Jesus is recorded as having said "no man will see death before I return." the only thing close is a comment he made about John, and John makes clear what Jesus did not say in that Gospel. (John 21:22ff)

c) I'm not sure what people murdering in the name of God has to do with the validity of scriptural claims. People have abused/misrepresented scripture many times in history for their own purposes, and they probably will again. What people do with scripture has little bearing on whether it is truthful or not. That goes for good things people do in the name of their beliefs as well. If I am charitable or kind because of Jesus, that doesn't make Him deity. Either His claims were true or they were false, regardless of my beliefs.

d) I'm not convinced original sin is biblical, but even so, I have myself questioned the logic of sacrificial atonement. That is to say, I still have a hard time understanding how the suffering of the innocent can atone for the sins of the guilty. It is one of the key issues addressed in Romans, but I find it hard to absorb.

That's a long topic, but suffice to say I am at a loss for a complete solution. I accept that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I accept that wrong actions should have consequences for the actor since they inevitably cause consequences for victims. I accept that there is a place for mercy, but I don't know who would have the right or the wherewithal to judge who is deserving of such mercy or when to dole it out.

In short, I don't fully understand the scriptural answer to the problem, but neither can I offer a complete solution myself.

d) I don't know much about the Pope, nor am I inclined to defend the office. Nonetheless, I'm not sure a public figure taking precautions negates that figure's faith, unless there were some sort of promise from God that said figure would remain protected?

e) I'm convinced the historical evidence is strong for the following: A man named Jesus from Nazareth was revered as a teacher among Jews under Roman control. He was eventually executed by the Romans at the behest of local Jewish leadership. He was seen alive by multiple witnesses after this event. A movement grew and thrives today based on that understanding of events.

I always retain the possibility in my mind that I'm wrong, seeing as how I'm not beyond being duped. I go off of what seems most likely to be true, and for me, Jesus is it. If I'm wrong, then I've believed a lie and the most important parts of my life have been based on falsehood. If I'm not, then my work continues and I have a lot to look forward to once this existence has come to an end.

If you in fact are open to accepting reality

then you should do more research. There is a vast amount of information online that is more than enough "proof" beyond any reasonable doubt that the bible was written by men to control other men. It was not written by God. It was written by men who heard voices in their heads and claimed it was "God". Just like "W" said God told him to invade Iraq.

BTW - I was active in the church for 35 years so I know how difficult it is to "let go of God" but after a few months of adjustment, I SWEAR life is much fuller. It has meaning. It makes sense. Nothing is scary anymore. No more worrying while you try to sleep. No more fearing death. I wouldn't have beleivied it had it not happened to me but letting go of god was one of the most liberating things I have ever done.

Listen to this poodcast. Listen to more at www.freedomainradio.com

http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/billion_dollar_proposi...

This is No Response

Having read the post you are responding to, I don't see a single point you are directly addressing, but I do see rhetorical tactics.
"If in fact you are open to accepting reality then you should do more research. There is a vast amount of information online that is more than enough 'proof' beyond any reasonable doubt that the bible was written by men to control other men."
This implies that unless he has come to the same conclusions as you have, then he either 1) is not open to reality, 2) has been a poor researcher thus far, 3) or he is unreasonable. A trinity of accusations parading as a point. What a riot.
But then you say....
"It was written by men who heard voices in their heads and claimed it was 'God'."

Which is it? Was it written by men to control other men, or was it written by schizophrenics who heard voices? I suppose it could be both. Perhaps there were men who heard voices which told them to write something to control other men. But it is always amusing to me to find self styled skeptics like yourself who offer (as fact) completely unprovable premises about the experiences and motives of men who lived millenniums ago, while rejecting what evidence we do have from them.

So your life has meaning? Where did this meaning come from? Could you tell us what meaning your life has?

And as an aside...
"No more fearing death."
I have often heard atheist argue that part of the problem with theism (of various forms) is that it makes its adherents view this earthly life with less importance - that their beliefs in the hereafter make them too willing to sacrifice themselves in hopes of heaven. In short, it makes them not fear death. But it isn't long before many of the same atheist turn clean around and talk about their own atheism as freeing them from fearing an end to life.

Afflicted with the faith virus too R_Michael?

The ruling elite loves a population trained from birth to confuse beliefs with the real world. It is much easier to rule a population, pillage them with taxes, or send them off to fight a war, if the ruler is not required to prove the reality of his or her propositions and statements.

This is why, since the dawn of civilizations, governments encourage their people to be ruled by beliefs and not by reason. As children, we are bribed to allow beliefs to rule our thinking. Believe in the fat man from the north Pole, get a bicycle. Believe in the rabbit, get candy. Believe in the tooth fairy, get a quarter. Never question, never think, never analyze; just take your goodies and go on believing.

We will never find peace in this world until a majority of people stop beliving in Ghosts and other mythological beings.

Heavy Sigh

Heavy Laughter

Do you actually converse with others, or do you just preach like some hot gospeler in a sweaty tent revival? You are a hoot!

But lets not spoil the fun...
Is there something objectively wrong with "ruling a population, pillaging them with taxes, or sending them off to fight a war"? Is there some absolute universal law in your atheist universe that says these things ought not happen? If so, where did this law come from? Who established this law? Is it written down somewhere so I can read it? Is there some authority involved, or is this just your personal prejudice squawking like an atheist Jerry Falwell?

Beliefs vs reason? One cannot exist without the other. Reason itself is a matter of faith.

This is mildly amusing: "Never question, never think, never analyze; just take your goodies and go on believing." Well, I asked some pretty direct questions about your beliefs. I'd like to analyze what you have to say. But apparently you "believe" in not answering simple, direct questions.

Here is what a question looks like:
"Where did this meaning come from? Could you tell us what meaning your life has?"
Of course, there are other questions above that we look forward to hearing you reason through.
Lets do a little reasoning and analyzing back and forth, shall we?

What meaning does my life have?

Not sure what you are looking for here but...I'm happy, healthy, I've been married for 25 years to someone that I love dearly. She is not only my wife but my best friend and I enjoy spending time with her doing just about anything. I have a daughter that is in her last year of college. She is beautiful and intelligent. She was a cheerleader in highschool and never received a "B" on any report card after 2nd grade.

I get along with my daughter extremely well. I enjoy my job and enjoy when I do a good job and get a lot accomplished and my boss is proud of me. I wish I earned more money but I've only been there about 6 months and things look good for future advancements. (although the coming depression could throw a monkey wrench in that)

I love nature and I enjoy being outside. I live at the beach and love walking on the beach at night with my wife or by myself. I have lived in the same town for almost 20 years and have some very close friends. Most would give me the shirt of their back and most know they can count on me to help them in any way I can. I worked in computer systems administration for 15 years and so I'm "The computer guy" in my circle of friends. Never a dull moment in that position but I enjoy the challeges of fixing computers and networks.

What else would you like to know?

"What else would you like to

"What else would you like to know?"

Well, you might have started by answering the original question. What you have offered as a meaning is little more than a personal bio, complete with things you enjoy doing. This is all very nice, but not really an answer.

"Not sure what you are looking for here but..."

In a previous post, you stated with positive affirmation that now, as an atheist, your life is full and has meaning. It would seem that one must have some kind of certainty in their head to make such a statement. So I was asking for some specifics. What do you mean when you say your life has "meaning"?

You gave us a list of some obviously positive things that you either do, experience or like to experience. Yet presumably, having been 'active in the church for 35 years', all these things were present even when you would have described yourself as a 'Christian'. So apparently your atheism has neither added nor (to be fair) subtracted from what you would call life's meaningfulness. I guess that is your point. But if your life's meaning is based on your contingent experiences within life itself, then your life's meaning is itself contingent and could disappear at any instant.

If, God forbid, you should suddenly lose your wife and child, be fired or laid off, have your beach front property repossessed, have your friends abandon or betray you... then what meaning is left? Does life become meaningless? If you lose any one of these, does life become less meaningful? What then of those lonely souls who have experienced such loses and grief? Is life not worth living? Is life's meaning only derived from what brings individual pleasures? If so, then are you in any position to judge the meaning others find in religious experiences?

Furthermore, you say you 'love your wife', and I'm sure that you do. But what is love to an atheist such as yourself? Is there some spiritual dimension to this thing called 'love', or is this just the result of chemical reactions in the physical brain effecting your accidental consciousness? Is there an atomic number for this element called 'love'? Is love material or immaterial? If it is immaterial, then can immaterial things be real?

Okay, I'll try again

Maybe you are looking for differences in my life sense I became an atheist. I never felt comfortable bowing down in front of a group of people, listening to voices in my head, and repeating a mantra that I never received a response from other than my own thoughts in my own head. Nothing about prayer, religion, or worship made sense to me BUT, I felt guilty if I did not continue the rituals. I felt guilty if I used foul language. I felt guilty if I did what I wanted to do instead of going to church on Sundays. There are many many things that I would feel gulity about because in the "eyes of God" I should be doing something else instead of what I wanted to do or what seemed natural for me to do.

Worrying and depression used to be a huge problem for me. I used to be a heavy drinker and I'm convinced that I drank so much to keep myself from dealing with reality. Again, the world did not make sense to me and when I drank, I no longer cared. If I was drunk I could pass out at night whereas if I was sober I would stay awake at night worrying about everything under the sun, including the death of my daughter in some horrible accident. These worries never stopped. No matter how often I prayed about them...nothing would cause all the worry and non-stop "mind-chatter" from going on inside my head.

When I let go of God and started applying logic and reason to my life it only took a few months before my rational thinking took control of my irrational thoughts. I started applying statastics to things I worried about. What are the changes that my daughter is going to get raped or murdered? What can I do about it if it happened? etc.

I stopped drinking completely for almost 3 years. (I've recently began having a beer or two when I'm out at dinner with the people I work with but I no longer have the habit of drinking like I used to) And let me tell you, I had prayed to have God help me stop drinking since I was 17. "God" never helped at all. It was only when I took personal responsibility for my own behaviors that I was able to take control of my drinking.

If you envision someone living on the beach, you are mistaken. I've never lived ON the beach, just 5 miles from it. In 2007 I lived in an upper middle class home with all the toys and crap that you might expect from a happy, brainwashed, consumer. However, in 2008-2009 I lost my job as a computer systems administrator, I lost my home, and sold everything we owned of value to keep a roof over our head and food on the table. My wife and I currently live in an efficeny apt that is essentially an extended stay hotel. We litterally have nothing of (monotary) value left. We have 1 car that is 10 years old and we have no money or investments. I do a job that any teenage drop out could do but it pays the bills.

I could go into more detail but if you are like I was...it will just cause you to dig in more and tell me things like my Mom did..."oh isn't it wonderful how God helped you stop drinking", um bullshit Mom, that was ME that stopped drinking..."God" dropped the ball on that for years!

Relationship with wife and daughter (both who are now also atheists) EXCELLENT! BTW, I used to fear the death of not only myself but my sisters, parents, wife, daughter, etc constantly. No more. Life MAKES SENSE to me now. Illogical thoughts get tossed out of my conscienceness in a split second instead of feeling like a splinter in my brain.

I never expericenced complete relaxation and happiness until I realized that it was not ME that was missing something...that there wasn't something wrong with ME and my ability to "connect" with a highter power. No, my mind was cramped from trying to square a circle. My mind was cramped from trying to telepathically communicate with some other world being that seemed competely illogical to me. My mind was working for years to try and steer me into the right dirction but I kept forcing it to bend in dirctions that never did and never would make sense to me.

Oh the pleasure of just letting life be. It is what it is and I don't have to have anyone's permission or be scared I'm going to burn in a fire pit for the rest of eternity. It's all a ruse and it's sad for me to see so many people wasting a signifgant portion of their time, energy, and money on what may be the greatest scam of all.

Religion, Government, & Money and Banking. Those three things all have one BIG thing in common. They are illusions to fool the masses. You have probably accepted that Government & Money and Banking are illusions, what is it that keeps the most obvious of those 3 things kept in a box locked away where it cannot be questioned or picked apart like the other 2? It's faith...or like some say...The faith Virus. Get cured of the faith virus and life really begins.

"Maybe you are looking for

"Maybe you are looking for differences in my life sense I became an atheist."

No, not really. I'm not asking about personal experiences at all. There can be little doubt that if a Christian were to offer you the same sort of testimonial, only in reverse - "My life was a mess, then I found Jesus!" - it would be next to meaningless to you concerning the overall validity of their philosophical worldview.

None of that is to say that I either disbelieve your testimonial, or disapprove of your recovery from addiction and depression. These twin specters are very difficult for anyone to deal with. Of course, I could find literally thousands of such testimonials from people whose worldview is antithetical to your own - people who would claim 'God' was indispensable to their own recovery from such misery. And that would make little difference to you. Likewise, I read your biography with personal interest, while still wondering about my original question.

When it comes to questions about meaning, the central thing is not 'what' your life is, but 'WHY' it is. Now it could be that 'why' you or I exist is an impossible question to answer from the perspective of a philosophical naturalist. And it could be that a Christian answer to the same question would amount to little more than another anecdotal story. But my question seems to be universal to humanity. And since you seemed to be making an appeal in that universal question ("My life has meaning.") I was simply trying to understand your thoughts on the matter.

Had I known that your meaning was simply personal subjective emotions arising out of subjective, contingent experiences, I probably would have just kept to myself.

"what is it that keeps the most obvious of those 3 things kept in a box locked away where it cannot be questioned or picked apart like the other 2?"

More of that rhetorical edge you seem to enjoy. Such a question is little better than the ole "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" It assumes too much. But lets keep it going all the same. Well, my life was all screwed up, then I found faith. Therefore, I have my reasons that cannot be questioned or picked apart. I have found mental and psychological emancipation. Hooray!

There, now we are even.

But I'm still curious. From your perspective, what could possibly be wrong with illusions in religion, banking, money and government? Some people are quite happy psychologically with such illusions. You seem to believe that illusions and lies are wrong. Why are they wrong? Are they "evil"? If so, why are they evil? What is evil or good to an atheist? This is all just a gaudy cosmic show. It will all end very soon for both you and I, and the material universe doesn't care one iota for any of our personal subjective views on the matter. Why are illusions in such areas any different than a trapdoor spider lying concealed, before pouncing on a bug?
Should we be all up in arms with the spider? Poor little bugs.

Why Not Believe in God Part 1

I don't seem to be doing a very good job of trying to explain my position. Please take the time to listen to this podcast.

http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_686_Why_Not_Believ...

Enjoy your day.

Have you ever thought about

Have you ever thought about being a politician?(-; You avoid direct questions on a regular basis, though not nearly as artfully as your typical office holder or political candidate. Still, it is a skill that just might get you a leg up.

You have a nice day as well.

I'd only make a good politican if I was shutting down the State

I'll admit I don't do a good job trying to get people to understand my views on religion but I also have found that other than that one area, I agree with most of what everyone on this site believes so I'm going to end that conversation with you.

Ultimatly we are all trying to find happiness and purpose in our lives. Letting go of God has changed my life for the better and God seems to make your life full. So be it.

In liberty,

go213mph

There are few people who are really good at explaining and defending their philosophy. I am certainly no better. And when it comes to such things, it is always easier to attack another person for their views, than to defend your own. I have certainly acted in that capacity here. I had my reasons, none of which you would find enlightening, I suppose.

Yes, there is a great deal you and I can agree on and work towards, though we cannot possibly agree on the 'whys' in our mutual goals.