They say a picture is worth a thousand words
Welcome to the "war on terror". They can put any catagory of means test into the equation. Anything goes. What else is "strategic" about Afghanistan? We're there for some reason. Maybe just to keep the military well oiled, but hey, our top brass can use a little of that heroin money under the table. You and I can't do anything but salute the troops.
...not those who follow the orders or even those who stand up and say "I will not follow those orders" and get thrown in the brig.
Reality: As the war machine thunders on and the economy crashes, more and more of our sons and daughters will take the only job available. For many if not most, it is not about wanting to be a part of the borg...the killing machine. They see no other option available. They convince themselves that the recruiting officer's lies make sense. In some cases their family salutes them for being a "man" or "woman" (and more and more women are becoming part of the military borg.)
Situation is going to get worse. If those of us who are against senseless war without end, decide that in order to point a finger, we will point it at these (at 64) little boys and girls, who are being sacrificed because of the world without opportunities we created for them, we should heed that old adage "when you are pointing at someone, three fingers are pointing back at you."
Will you...or the collective we...soon rise up against senseless war and spit on our soldiers as we did those returning from Viet Nam?
Or will we work together for a world where the Commander-in-Chief
issues orders to our military that we can all stand behind..proudly and without finger pointing? "Poppy fields" just stands for corporate and CIA interests. There are poppy fields of one kind or another all over the world where we are at war for "democracy." Let's step back and focus on underlying lies at hand. JMO
And well put.
You should take note.....
"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
has killed so many of my favorite rock stars...and yes, i guess it's disturbing that marines are guarding them :P
"I am Troll fighter, number one"
Is that those guys in that field don't seem to have any qualms about being put to work guarding those fields. Who are they guarding them from anyway?
I forgot to mention that poppy fields are some of the safest places in Afghanistan. It is highly unlikely for IEDs to be planted in the area. The locals don't want to risk the profits from the crops.
Also, it is one of the basest of strategies to capture enemy profits, no matter what form those profits might take.
These marines are probably just happy to have an easy task. Also, keep in mind, we follow orders.
I have the utmost respect for our soldiers/marines but "we follow orders" is becoming a lame excuse for unconstitutional actions more and more everyday. This is the EXACT same thing the soldiers said after confiscating peoples guns in Louisiana after Catrina.
YOUR OATH SIR... first and foremost are to protect and defend the US Constitution AGAINST ALL ENEMIES FOREIGN AND ((DOMESTIC))!
"We Follow Orders" is nothing more than an excuse to break that oath. If you are getting unconstitutional orders from your higher ups, it is your DUTY and OATH to disregard those orders, is it not ?....
The troops that don't follow orders get punished under the UCMJ. And disobedience, as in disobeying orders, can earn you jail time, reduction in rank, and garnishing of wages. Not to mention the loss of whatever clearance you might have.
I strongly doubt that you would rather rot in the brig than guard some stupid poppy field. We follow orders is not an excuse, it is reality of everyday life in the armed services. Imagine for a second that everything you have earned over the past couple years was stripped from you and you were stuck in the legal void that is military law.
I know you feel like we lose our moral compass. But in the end, I would only risk such penalties for something serious. A few poppy fields does not quite hit the mark.
((I know you feel like we lose our moral compass. But in the end, I would only risk such penalties for something serious. A few poppy fields does not quite hit the mark.))
I see, Apparently taking peoples guns doesnt reach that mark either does it ? Excuses are like assholes, everybody has one....
You have no reason to attack my character kind sir. If you ever served, you might have a totally different outlook on things. To put it plainly, it is easy to pass judgement from afar and generalize circumstances.
Now, I have not seized anyone's weapons. I have not oppressed any people of any kind. But I am aware of the system that I live in. If you believe so sternly that I am a sellout then please join the Marines. Experience what I have, and then refuse what your leadership will call "lawful orders". Don't be shocked when they make an example of you. And at the very least, it will be a great test of character for you.
It does not matter what we believe, only what policy dictates.
Keep in mind the issue is poppy fields. Don't digress from the topic on hand in an attempt to give yourself leverage. And please keep it civil.
Civility is a lost art these days.
((does not matter what we believe, only what policy dictates))
So you admit here that you put what policy dictates to you over what you know is unconstitutional or right or wrong.
Your own words openly express the fact that you will not stand up for the Constitution and defend the oath that you have taken. Whether or not they make an example of you is irrelevant. Unconstitutional acts are unconstitutional acts. You will not defend the Oath you took. You have made that very clear.
If you break that oath in one area what is to make me believe you wont do just about anything your ordered to do like take peoples guns when more important things like your "rank" are on the line ?
Do you really think all those Heroin addicts parents give a flying crap about your 'rank' sir ?
Excuse me for being a little "uncivil" but you must understand its hard listening to someone justify our military guarding poppy fields talking about keeping it civil!
(Keep in mind the issue is poppy fields. Don't digress from the topic on hand in an attempt to give yourself leverage. And please keep it civil.)
Right! As if guarding poppy fields is any less pathetic! Reading what you have written, you come off as a personality that will do anything including trampling on the Constitution so long as your ass is on the line if you do not...If guarding poppy fields is ok, what isn't ?..............
Rank is not the only thing on the line. Like I wrote before: jail time, garnishing of wages, and loss of clearance. That would mean that I would disappear in the brig, lose a significant portion of my salary if not all of it, and be given a dishonorable discharge that would haunt me the rest of my life. Disobeying a "lawful order" is a crime in the military. You get tried under the UCMJ and that sticks with you for the rest of your life. No one that is even partially sane would martyr themselves for guarding a poppy field. There is nothing unconstitutional about guarding a field, unless you are going as far as to say that I am to refuse orders to a deployment. The war is the problem, not the poor marines sent there.
I have a family and other marines to look out for, and I cannot condone such reckless behavior. The people free enough to protest need to take the helm and wait for us veterans to join the fight when we won't suffer such sever penalties.
And regarding the poppy fields, we cordon the area and hold it for the DEA to remove the crops. It is as simple as denying the enemy their funding from the Marine Corps' stand point. What they do with it may be a different story. We are not responsible for their corruption.
What is sad about this is that there are so many of us on your side only to be called sell outs by the people we hoped to serve. I busted my hump spreading the good doctor's word umongst our ranks. I contributed probably more than I should have considering my fiscal responsibilities. And I joined the Corps hoping to make a difference only to realize how crippling the bureaucracy can be.
Here is the oath that you keep referencing:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according
to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
The part that we lowley enlisted are forced to focus on is to obey the orders of the officers appointed over us according to regulations and the UCMJ. We don't make the policies. Our immediate superiors don't make the policies. Etc. Up the chain of command.
Stop blaming us for the government that the masses elected. Your anger is misguided and does nothing but distance the active duty military from the cause. I thank God every day that liberty is gaining some popularity and that we might actually live to see a better world.
I think the real problem is that you are generalizing my circumstances with your's. Under the UCMJ, I have a more sever set of laws that cripples the choices that I would make. I simply have way more to lose. Once again, liberty is my goal. But I would never make a martyr of myself for a poppy field. I have too many people depending on me, and I would hardly be of any use to the liberty movement by disappearing in a brig.
Oh and my challenge to enlist is still on the table. You would get to witness the iron thumb we live under every day first hand. At least then you would get to judge us based on experience and not what you imagine us to be.
Fight the good fight sir.
I'm quite sure even the ones doing it would not go on a public forum acting as if its no big deal and saying they are happy to do it because its a easy job.
I have two family members that are active duty marines and i know without a doubt they have a problem with this because we have spoken about it. This isn't new news.
Like i have said already , where is that line for someone like you ?
Your defending this disgrace and making excuses for it is a real turnoff and i can assure you, you do not speak for most marines regarding this issue! Most i have talked to about it are embarrassed by it, I am embarrassed by it. You show no such thing and go about it as if its no big deal when it is in fact a big deal.
The difference between them and you is they resemble the Marines who refused to confiscate peoples guns after Catrina(( yes, there are still Americans with balls, look it up)) and you resemble the ones who gladly went about it because they were given orders to do so with total disregard to the law of the land and the oath they took. It is all relevant here !
Its one thing to be caught in that situation and its another thing all together to make lite of it.
Once again, if i were to judge i would say you would have no problem disregarding the constitution and the rights of American citizens if you are ordered to do so and i come to that conclusion based on what you have written in this thread. I'm speaking to YOU, not all Marines...Try and show a little Tact in the future...
Being a Marine and having a "problem" with it is one thing, this "holier than thou" crap holds no merit until they are in that situation, refuse orders and risk prison. But as you said, we've "talked" about it, so I can assume they haven't been put in this situation, making your point moot.
The National Guard in Katrina were on American soil, and has nothing to do with the guarding of fields by Marines on foreign soil. Comparing it to confiscation of guns on U.S. soil is asinine as well as a sad attempt to justify your weak point.
.....There were active duty marines that participated in that tragedy as well....The ones that refused did not get thrown in prison....
Guarding fields and gun confiscation are two different topics. The situation currently being discussed is poppy fields, just clarifying in case of confusion. But by all means distract from this so you can reiterate your point.
Making it personal. Ha ha!
It is sad that you have decided that you know me from a few comments on a blog.
An easy day while deployed is a marine's way of saying a safe day. You can ask your family to affirm that. And it just seems your intent to be hostile toward me and every marine that has ever followed orders they don't believe in. I know you know a few marines. Good for you. But I live and work with dozens of marines everyday. I brought up our little talk. I tried to be fair, understanding that I too am against the improper use of military forces. Not a single marine out of 40 said that they would disobey the disputed orders. The general consensus was that they saw it as a questionable order but still obedience prevailed. I assure you my balls are quite accounted for. :)
I don't know what posses you to express such conceited and overly zealous judgment upon me and my brothers in arms. Perhaps, the bland text can't express my tone well enough. I think perhaps this discussion could have gone another direction. But your lack of respect for open and civil discussion has been well noted. You read my words in the wrong way and even added a little of your own assumptions in your judgment.
In this world of 0's and 1's, we have lost our civility.
Be at peace warrior. I hope you enjoyed our time together.
For the second time, I am NOT speaking to your brothers in arms, i am speaking to YOU..Understand ? Quit trying to make it like i'm painting all marines with a broad brush. I am not being hostile towards you and I never claimed to know you. I don't know anything about you except what you wrote in this thread and that i'm not impressed with what you have had to say at all in regards to the poppy fields.
If the truth is hostile to you so be it. Knowing what I DO know about you from what you wrote in this thread i would say you make me more nervous than secure about my rights as a US citizen.
Like it or not, guarding poppy fields is guarding poppy fields and its nothing to be proud of and there is nothing to defend, Its a pathetic situation, even for the soldiers PATHETIC.
As i said IF I WERE TO JUDGE you as a marine based on what i know about you which is only what you have written in this thread i would be willing to bet you would be quick to follow orders and violate peoples rights if ordered to do so.
That's what you have projected about yourself by trying to downplay and defend US military guarding something they know is going to make its way to the streets and poison our kids!
Not only have we lost civility, we have clearly lost our morals as well when you cant seem to find anything wrong with US Soldiers guarding poppy fields but seem to find my being honest more insulting to you. So do we see the problem here ? I'm guessing you don't and never will as i don't see how much clearer i can be.
Now you can take this and twist it in to somthing its not or you can except the fact that US Military guarding poppy fields in Afghanistan is Pathetic and you posting in this thread as if there isn't anything wrong with it is even more pathetic and disturbing.
Outside of that, you are probably a great guy, just a little confused about what your supposed to be protecting....We don't pay you to protect your own ass, we pay you to protect US and our rights as US citizens....We pay you to honor your oath...There is no honor in defending poppy fields and if you cant understand that then i guess we are done here....
It seems someone saying it isn't dangerous means they are "proud" to do the job. I have yet read anyone say they were proud, merely it's not worth the jail time, so your gripping at straws in some delusional last attempt at winning a "debate" (I say that loosely, you seem keen on arguing and low blows as opposed to standard debate decorum)
You have never served and havent the slightest inkling what honor is. Stop trying to play this off for your own benefit.
you don't know what Ive done or what i know and the only thing delusional here is your empty rhetoric while trying to defend the indefensible....who's grasping at straws here? You haven't made one logical, moral comment sense entering this conversation and as for low blows, i hope this one lands square on your empty sack..Teabag...
...At this point it is odvious you are only here to start a tiff to get attention. I may not know what you have done in life, but from everything I've read, you don't have the maturity or discipline to join any branch of the military. In all actuality, you are probably some pathetic incognito Obama troll.
If you can't converse like an adult without losing your temper and throwing a hissy fit, then stay quiet when the adults are talking.
(Also as a post script,
* "You're a moron." )
I am only here because you keep running your head and saying nothing in response to my posts, that's why i'm here.
Lets see here, Angry, Hostile, hissy fit, tiff ,getting attention, no maturity Yada Yada Yada. Have you ever listened to yourself debate? You sound like a politically correct Liberal Schmuck. Its not my job to pamper you!
As i said, you know nothing about me or what i know.
As for maturity and discipline, what we have found out in this little 'tiff' is that i am mature enough and Disciplined enough to know for a fact that guarding heroin fields is unconstitutional and immoral and has absolutely NOTHING to do with protecting Americans and you are not and if you are you clearly do not have the balls and fortitude to say so. Instead you go on and on with this "your angry", "your hostile", your throwing a "hissy fit" when in fact i am just responding to a disgusting situation that was being downplayed as if its no big deal.
You see silly, this was never really open for debate with me because no amount of names or assumptions that spew out of that Liberal guizer of yours will make me believe otherwise but you already know this don't you silly ?...which brings the BIG question...why do you keep responding to me? Need a little attention maybe ? At Least the other guy made some good points but you have made none,nada, Zilch, ZERO!!!
Do not confuse my disgust with anger, hostility or hissy fits Liberal. I know its hard for guys like you but if you think real hard you will find that there is nothing happy, honorable, richus , mature or disciplined about guarding heroin fields OR defending that position...you can do it silly, i know you can .... ;)
Thats what an Obama supporter would say...
That's it ? That's all you got ?
Obami Troll...MuuuuaaahHaHaHaHa.....lol Quick, get up, there's a terrorist under your bed ....;P
If you cannot muster the maturity to retort the topic- poppy fields, you've proven not only your lack of basic discipline, but your underlying agenda. It's horrible that an Obama supporter has to stoop to these depths for gratification. Please do your research on what is, and isn't Constitutionally acceptable in regards to foreign affairs. You can look it up on your smart phone provided by your Obama welfare.
back for more eh? I think i communicate quite well, it is you that is lacking in understanding and communicating you mental midget. You know, Ive been called a lot of things by a lot of people but can only recall one other person ever calling me a Obama Troll in a desperate attempt to save some face. Perhaps that's a sure sign of your inability to think properly and just how far out in the Land of the Lefty's you really are....
Warrior, you are one sad frustrated little man. Are you so determined to have the last word with this person?
You seemed quite satisfied calling me pathetic last we commented. The partial definition above is the jist of what it means. And while I strongly doubt that you are capable of sympathy for another human that disagrees with you, I want you to know that I truly do pity you.
Learn to let it be. You might be a happier person.
Also, have you decided to enlist yet? People might respect your opinion on the armed services more if you did. Until then, you're just a craven, young man with opinions based off imagined circumstances.
Stop being childish and save yourself the frustration.
you have it ass backwards and have had it ass backwards all along.
Example, we haven't conversed for quite a few days then you come back in to the conversation that has long been over and say that i am the one determined to have the last word...a little ironic isn't it?? Then you go on to say ..and i quote..'Learn to let it be. You might be a happier person.' If only you practiced what you preach eh?....if only you defended your oath instead of poppy fields, you feel me?
The situation is most certainly pathetic. This topic and you make me pity my country and the sad state its currently in! I feel sadness for all the children and young adults that are hooked on heroin. I feel sadness for their parents even more so after seeing a self proclaimed member of the armed forces basically acting as if there is nothing wrong with it! THAT IS SAD! I even feel pity for the soldier who is put in that position that doesn't want to be there BUT YOU, who goes as far to say they would be happier to be guarding heroin fields than protecting their country from its enemies or the constitution you swore an oath to protect,... not so much!
As for age, i'm probably old enough to be your father.
Last but not least, my opinion on the armed forces as a whole is very positive, always has been but i must say its not very often i hear a member of our armed forces saying they would rather be guarding poppy fields than protecting America from its enemies! In Fact this is the first time i have EVER heard such words come out of a service members mouth, why is that? How long will it take for your juvenile brain to figure out that my problem isn't with the armed forces, the problem is with you and people who think like you and last time i checked YOU are certainly not the voice of the entire armed forces are you?
Here is one to ponder, maybe, just maybe, if you didn't get on public forums acting like a child with no morals or dignity going about as if there isn't anything wrong with guarding poppy fields and going after me because i think its disgusting then people might respect your opinion as a service member!
I can see you now, sitting by the fireside with your son or grandson when they ask, Dad, what did you do during the great war on terror to protect us?...
Dads answer....Uuuuuu , i was busy guarding the poppy fields son, now pat me on the back...LOL...
Now stop being childish and save yourself some dignity if you have any left ...seems the only ones frustrated are you two roll models grasping at straws trying to defend the indefensible and immoral....