185 votes

Open Thread: Free & Equal Third Party Debate

Vote for who you think won at FreeAndEqual.org.

Thank you to everyone who tuned in.

http://youtu.be/5EcaX12h46k (Thanks Maeve for the link)

Video & Book:

  • Grand Illusion: The Myth of Voter Choice in a Two-Party Tyranny - Including a letter of support by Ron Paul
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    The debate was much better

    The debate was much better than the ones with the bozo moderators and the Grinch and Scrooge. Tobin needs to trim that speech down. Larry is past his prime, but it's nice to see him give his name to this. It does help.

    I'm voting for Gary, mostly because I see him as a vehicle. I'd like to see him get up to 15 percent and funding. A respectable showing not getting to 15 would also not be bad. He has the best chance of that.

    I am totally against his pro-choice policies, as well as his national sales tax. Both are awful. But it's hard to find a candidate you totally agree with. Gary would be much, much better than those two jokers running as separate wings of the Republicrat vulture.

    Would you support a national

    Would you support a national sales tax if the 16th amendment were repealed and there was no income tax?

    There is no need for a national sales tax.

    The Grace Commission under Ronald Reagan revealed the income tax is nothing more than a payoff to the Fed bankers. No bankers, no tax and that is fast becoming our only option.

    still writing in "Ron Paul" in CA

    and looking forward to it.

    also voting for food labeling bill because i think ANY extra pressure to expose GMO foods is a good thing for waking people up to that stuff!

    Me too! And I'm writing Ron

    Me too! And I'm writing Ron Paul in a county of Florida where it matters a lot. That really gets everyone upset, and I love it!

    It's my vote, and I'll do what I think is right; no matter what anyone tells me!


    Having a double impact this year by taking one from Romney and adding one to Obama. Romney or Obama will win this year. It is very important to the future of the Liberty movement that Romney loses. We will have another shot in 4 years if Romney loses. Pause and consider the double impact you could have on this election. I know it's awful, but we have to think long term now.

    Technically a vote for

    Technically a vote for Johnson or a write in for Paul will siphon votes from Romney. I say vote your conscience.

    haven't we been doing that

    haven't we been doing that for over a hundred years? where has that strategy gotten us?

    decent strategy

    but if romney wins i think people will leave GOP in droves, and move to another or a new party.

    it would be nice to be part of a party where you don't have to play so much dirty politics, for a change.. the primaries/debates this year were disgusting, and Ron Paul said that going through the GOP was the only way, but it was also another failure, and his message may have carried more resonance had he gone libertarian... of course we can never know that, but we do know that "playing with" the gop was no picnic and we were treated like crap.

    if everyone thought like you, there'd never be a rise of a 3rd party. And if obama gets elected and you voted for him, you are partly to blame for all the horrible things that he will do. just look how ron paul has voted and tell me if he threw those votes away when he voted alone?

    in the future we won't need MSM so badly because of the internet. hopefully the pauls' websites in the future will utilize the medium and it's potential WAY better than the official RonPaul2012 website did...

    crietmann's picture

    What I came away with

    First of all - a strong deeply emotional feeling of patriotism hit me about 40 minutes in - not the "I'm proud of my President" or "I'm proud of my party" but real pride in being American and hearing those often dissenting yet passionate voices. I think they all knew they are representing their vision of what can be great in America whether the ideas are popular or would get them elected.

    2nd point - I know exactly where Virgil Goode stands on immigration. To this day I can't say the same about Romney or Obama...and I watched every debate.

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    You know

    We would have no problem with immigration if there were no minimum wage laws. The biggest concern people have it foreigners getting jobs for less than Americans, but the government makes it illegal to work for those who are not worth minimum wage.

    Just remove the minimum wage law, allow people access to come here, jobs will actually become competitive again, and immigration will be the least of your problems.

    A move in the right direction.

    Nice change to see some realism in the political arena. The questions asked weren't all inclusive of the major issues such as the Fed, sound money and Iran specifically, but definitely enlightening.
    Must say I was impressed with Jill Stein and Rocky Anderson.
    I think everyone would do well to get behind Free & Equal.

    "Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
    RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

    ConstitutionHugger's picture

    California voter here

    Gary Johnson is going to get my vote. I love how he sold himself. I wished many times that Ron Paul talked that way. But Paul's role is as an educator. I don't think voting for Johnson is a betrayal of Ron Paul. It's an expression of my continuing support. Too bad most people aren't paying attention to the election, much less alternate candidates...unless that big Independent block grows some cajones and rejects the R/D politicians. And this is all said assuming the elections aren't totally rigged.

    What it is to me

    Someone who refuses to get in the fight. A vote for Republican GJ for wearing a LP button, is saying, "I approve of someone else doing what needs to be done for this to actually happen."

    Ron Paul is an educator.. get educated! GJ is not an edcator.. he's looking for body's to surf.

    Get involved with your local GOP and join the Ron Paul RepubliCANs.

    Granger, if Romney wins then

    Granger, if Romney wins then it's 8 years before a chance to run a decent republican again

    Michael Nystrom's picture

    Granger, you have a hard heart

    It is typical in many Ron Paul supporters, and it is annoying: My way or the highway. No tolerance for other ideas.

    Here is my analogy for GJ, and this whole third party / debate stuff:

    You know how sometimes your car gets stuck in the snow, and no matter how you push on the gas, the wheels just spin? And so get behind it, and you push on it, but your feet can't get any traction. So then you start rocking it. Push it in, and it comes back. Push it in, and it comes back. And the more you rock it, the closer it comes, until finally, the car squirts out of the rut it was in.

    I'll tell you this about the two party system: It is one big rut. Two ruts that are melding into one another. This is not the answer. We need a way out. I don't know the way out, but I'm pretty sure I know what is not the way out - not for me.

    So I just want to help rock this car, back and forth, back and forth until something breaks free. And the way you rock this car is to continue doing things that have never been done before. For me, that includes:

    1. This third party debate and,
    2. Granger in the GOP!

    Party on!

    btw - how can you say GJ is not an educator? He's educating by his actions. He's standing up, on the front line. You may not care for where he is standing, but you should give him credit that his is standing for something.

    I agree, but understand

    I agree with your comments, and at the same time I understand where Granger is coming from. Five years ago I was drinking the punch. I followed Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, and took what they said as gospel. The first time I heard of Ron Paul was at the famous debate where Rudy attacked Ron Paul and requested that he take back what he had said. At the time, Dr Paul made me angry, and I cheered when he was attacked. I was a hardcore Neo-con, and nothing could change my mind. Then I watched McCain during the debates and became angry at how he didn't articulate himself well, and how Obama walked all over him. Between this, and watching several documentaries on 9/11, I slowly woke up to the fraud of war, and my eyes were opened to Ron Paul. I was still loyal to the party though, and thought it was a waste to vote third party. Then I read something that changed me completely 2 years ago: "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." This was in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson in 1789. I realized that I cannot stay within a party, or vote for a man, if I had to surrender my principles. You see Michael, I realized that some people do not know better, and believe that they are right to change the party from within, but the truth is, they are lost in a maze that was built by these parties, and the only thing we can do is try and help them find their way out. George Washington once said "The common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it. It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection." This is what the 2 parties have accomplished.

    It's not my way

    I wish I could take credit Michael, but the truth is, I never thought of it. I really thought that third party, Indy would be the way to break the duopoly's monopoly in global corporate government, but I was wrong. What Ron Paul is suggesting, isn't that this would be easy, but that it was possible, and it is. This possibility is a good fight in the GOP. Those of us in the GOP are going to have OUR message heard because we are not running away.

    The way out is the way in.

    I say GJ is not an educator because he is not asking anyone to do anything like join the LP, get on a committee, learn Robert's Rules of Order, Gary's weekly classes on constitutional law... he's claim to fame at this point is body surfing his supporters, what's next, smoking DMT with Adam?

    To me, GJ is standing as a red herring for the GOP who really doesn't want us. So I guess you are correct, that I am hard hearted.. Just becuase the GOP does not want me as a RP Republican, it's not stopping me from taking a seat and preparing to hold Romney, once elected, to the constitution.

    I don't expect everyone to be ready, willing and able to join the GOP. I do hope that sharing my experiences and hopes for the GOP encourage those who have been third party and Indy and knows it never gets anywhere will consider this unique, once in a lifetime opportunity, Ron Paul is offering us in the GOP.

    how do you think the Republican Party came to be?

    I believe history will repeat itself and different parties will come to the forefront and others will go away. I am sorry you were not successful in the past. But it does not follow that we will not be successful in the future. Ralph Nader did not quit, he continues fighting. I am not quitting either.


    I think the industrial revolution created the GOP

    Ralph Nader did not run for president this election. On one hand, I filt bad not helping Nader in 07/08, I just really wanted Ron paul to run third party or Indy, and I knew, if I didn't join the GOP, he would join us.. he didn't. So, I joined the GOP in 10, and my only regret is not joining in 07.

    Ralph Nader and Ron paul are fighting for many of the same things, but in different ways. Both are brilliant. As bad as it was with the GOP and Ron Paul, it was worse with Nader because it was both GOP and Democratic Party against us.. brutal. This is much better than Nader's way was because Nader's was election to election, even though he has many NGOs public Citizen, watchgroups.. he's the best..Ron Paul's way is constant party work..

    Romney does one thing the party does another...


    different things come up - the Industrial Revolution or whatever and there is a different climate. In that new climate other parties are possible. The climate has been changing a lot lately in my view. SO anything is possible! Don't be so down all the time ;-))

    The only constant is change!

    Micheal's point, I believe, is that we can take different tacks. In fact if we take different tacks maybe someone will be successful. And then, we will all be successful because the car will be out of the rut and moving. Then we can steer it in the right direction.

    the moral...don't get stuck in a rut.

    I at least did register Republican so I could vote in the primary. That is more than many were willing to do. SO it isn't just about taking over the Republican Party. It will take a lot of time to erase the old stigmas.


    let's rock this boat!

    They all sold me...

    a little late...
    I heard Ron Paul in every word.

    RP Write-in lawsuit 2012!

    Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

    ConstitutionHugger's picture


    Local politics are critical, but this is about who I'm voting for for president. GJ is the best in my opinion. And while voting for a president isn't a silver bullet to fix this nation's problems, it's still a fun little thing to do, and this is a discussion board about the presidential debate, after all.

    Educators don't always appeal to the masses, perhaps a salesperson will.

    For you it;'s about who, for me it's why

    I'm voting Romney because of my loyalty oath and because I want Romney to win, in that it goves all of us who remained in the GOP the opportunity tio hold Romney accountable to the constitution oath he signed. We are not done fighting and certainly not looking to be a human wave for GJ to surf back to the GOP.

    Granger you are all the time

    Granger you are all the time saying that you followed Ron Paul's advice to become active in GOP. Yes indeed that was one of RP's scenarios of winning.

    But how in the world are you thinking within this same logic of following Ron Paul's advice to vote for Romney? RP never advised anybody to vote Romney and he himself will not vote Romney as he did not vote McCain in '08.

    "Air is the very substance of our freedom, the substance of superhuman joy....aerial joy is freedom."--Gaston Bachelard--


    We can hold Romney to the constitution. His own party.. how wonderful is that?

    Romney vs Goode

    Granger, if you're pro-life, Romney is most assuredly not. He stated in the past few weeks that "as president I would not be pursuing any anti-abortion legislation." That alone is enough to boot him from being a true conservative. Virgil Goode, on the other hand, has long defended the rights of the unborn. Check out his website:

    "The Yankee is compelled to toil to make the world go around."
    -Admiral Raphael Semmes, CSN

    It's not what Romney is

    It's about what the GOP CAN be despite Romney..

    I believe the stratigy of getting into the GOP is how we win, so that the unborn might have a chance for life and liberty.