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Rand Paul: Has the Government Gone Wild CNBC 10/23/2012

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We don't have 7 or 8 years to balance the budget...

and Rand Paul knows it.

When is Rand Paul going to get serious?

the guy who didn't even

the guy who didn't even support his Dad all the way to the convention.

TRAITOR

His dad dropped out before

His dad dropped out before the convention

robot999's picture

I got

mine signed by Rand in Tampa! (sorry just bragging a little ; )

"Government is the entertainment division of the military-industrial complex". - Frank Zappa

Why can't we build from the lower working class up?

That is how the middle class expanded greatly and became so powerful, because of the farsightedness of men like Henry Ford and George Eastman. Those individuals hired lower class workers and paid a good salary for good work, thus greatly expanding the middle class and beginning the economic boom that made America the wealthiest nation on Earth.

Instead everyone argues about giving more money to the elite or the middle class. The lower class, we are told, will simply fritter away the money on such needless items as food, clothing and shelter here in America. Oh, wait, that would benefit the economy much greater than allowing the middle and upper class to invest more money overseas.

At least they are discussing this important issue.

I think we should, if we have to have an income tax, make the first $24,000 tax free ( that is what it costs to run a home and have a vehicle for one person today ) then tax 10% on everything else with no exemptions or exceptions.

I always Like Ron's Idea

Lets just get rid of the income tax and replace it with nothing!

It would be great. I agree.

But in our current political climate I will not hold my breath.

I've never liked this

I've never liked this simple-minded bashing of no exemptions or exceptions. There are many reasons that credits, deductions, etc. exist. Sometimes bad ones exist, but there are also a lot of good ones. For example, a lower rate on capital gains. A lower rate on energy and healthcare industries. Tax credits for hiring people or for engaging in long-term research.

Yes, maybe something like the home mortgage deduction or the earned income tax credit needs to go. But would you want something like education expense deduction to disappear?

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Sorry you are too simple minded to understand.

That is because you have probably never worked a day in your life according to your comments. Why do some people find it necessary to cheat so they can claim they 'earned' everything they have stolen?

If the playing field is even for all then those who get to the top earned it fairly. Obviously you can't comprehend this simple fact.

First of all, the playing

First of all, the playing field is NEVER even. We all have different backgrounds, different economic circumstances, and different genetics.

And even if we start off all fair, what if one person gets to the top by committing fraud? Anyone else could have committed fraud...by your definition he would have earned his fortune because everyone started off evenly.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

I took too long so couldn't edit the rudeness from earlier post.

Massive sinus headache. Should have tried the following approach first, instead of losing my temper.

Under the current plan you are defending, using the 2011 tax rate as Married Filing Jointly with $11,600 standard deduction and having earned $100,000 income with $10,000 in capital gains for a total of $110,000 gross income. You pay at best 20% capital gains or at worst 28%. So you have $8000 from net capital gains (after paying at least $2000 in tax). Your taxable income is $88,400( $100,000-11,600 standard deduction ) at 25%= $22,100 tax paid ) leaves $66,300. Your total tax paid is $24,100, leaving you a grand net total of $85,900 income that the government kindly allows you to keep.

Under my plan you have a total income of $110,000 with the first $24,000 tax free. That leaves you with $86,000 in taxable income, and you pay at 10% or $8,600. Your grand net total is $101,400.

This requires federal spending cuts, especially in the military, ending all the wars including the war on drugs as well as ending the agencies Dr. Paul has recommended.

Under my plan you have an additional $16,500 income to spend which would be invested and lead to the creation of production and service jobs, increased savings and allow people to pay down debt. These new jobs would create more taxpayers by decreasing unemployment, and make up lost tax revenue from current taxpayers paying less taxes. The present plan that you are defending stifles growth for the lower and middle classes and prevents upward mobility.

Exceptions and exemptions are fraud as they promote elitism. What I am recommending is egalitarian. The current system is progressive and regressive.

Under the 2011 tax code Married Filing Jointly making $30,000 with no capital gains has a standard $11,600 deduction which leaves $18,400 taxable income at the rate of 15%. Tax owed is $2760. Net total income is $27,240.

Under my plan they would have a total income of $30,000 with the first $24,000 tax free. That leaves $6,000 taxable income with $600 paid. Total net income would be $29,400.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-capital-gains-tax-r...

http://www.cpasitesolutions.com/content/articles/2011taxrate...

Report: A quarter of U.S. millionaires pay taxes at a lower rate than some in middle class
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/report-one-in...

"Under the current plan you

"Under the current plan you are defending, using the 2011 tax rate as Married Filing Jointly with $11,600 standard deduction and having earned $100,000 income with $10,000 in capital gains for a total of $110,000 gross income. You pay at best 20% capital gains or at worst 28%."

Wait, hold it. Fact check. 20% on capital gains? No, its 15%, and only on capital gains over a certain amount (you can pay 0% under certain income conditions). I would know. There are state taxes in some places, but the federal rate is 15%. The only time you would pay more is if your capital gains income makes you regular income above AMT, which would have a deduction of 75,000 IIRC.

"So you have $8000 from net capital gains (after paying at least $2000 in tax)."

So paying a maximum of 1500 in tax, you get 8500 net.

"Your taxable income is $88,400( $100,000-11,600 standard deduction ) at 25%= $22,100 tax paid )"

Have you paid taxes before?

First of all, there are other deductions and credits BESIDES the standard deduction. Home mortgage, education, children, certain investments, charitable contributions, health costs, commuting costs, state taxes, legal fees, earned income, green energy,. etc. etc. etc. In many cases, it is worth itemizing over taking the standard deduction. About 40% of taxpayers do not use the standard deduction, and it has been estimated that many that do not itemize would actually save money by doing so, but do not have the time, knowledge, patience, etc.

Though most of those exemptions fade away with AMT, you can still deduct the big ones, and, you still pay a lower rate (28% vs 35%).

Secondly, taxes aren't all calculated at one rate. Even with ONLY the standard deduction, they'd only pay ~14,500 in taxes; a total of 16,000.

"Under my plan you have a total income of $110,000 with the first $24,000 tax free. That leaves you with $86,000 in taxable income, and you pay at 10% or $8,600. Your grand net total is $101,400."

Just in this example, if you got rid of the capital gains tax exemption, you'd have more people doing trading and speculation rather than investing. Trading and speculating does a lot, lot, LOT less to grow the economy. Moroever, it can even have a harmful affect by artificially fixing prices and baking in risk into the system.

"This requires federal spending cuts, especially in the military, ending all the wars including the war on drugs as well as ending the agencies Dr. Paul has recommended."

So if we collected a 10% flat tax, leaving payroll taxes, excise taxes, and corporate taxes in place, we'd lose about 300 billion in tax revenue. This comes from the fact that currently, the federal government collects about 12% of personal income. With your plan of 10% + the 24,000 tax free, I am going to guess that you go to 8.5%. That is a pure estimate, but I think it is pretty fair.

So 300 billion in tax revenue goes goodbye. That would make our deficit 1.5 trillion. Keep in mind, this is already with Obama's deficit reduction, which slashed medicare, social security, military spending, and welfare.

Where are you going to get that 1.5 trillion to balance the budget? You can get rid of every single penny of non-defense discretionary spending, and you'd save around 650 billion. This includes food stamps, housing aid, job training, pyschologists for jails, pell grants, roads, etc. etc. You could cut more defense spending to 600 billion, which obviously would come out of veterans benefits at least somewhat. That would save you an additional 300 billion.

Now what? Alright lets go after medicaid and unemployment. That would get you 400 billion. So now you have 1.3 trillion in budget savings, yet you STILL have a deficit!

"Under my plan you have an additional $16,500 income to spend which would be invested and lead to the creation of production and service jobs, increased savings and allow people to pay down debt."

Like I showed before, that number is actually closer to $8,000. Moreoever, you would overall put about 300 billion back into the economy/year.

Now, that would create jobs, especially the money that now goes to the middle and lower classes. But lucky for us, we already have an example of how this works. Obama put back 250 billion into the economy through tax cuts alone. And according to a lot of people, including Ron Paul, the stimulus didn't work. So by extension, the 250 billion in tax cuts did not work.

Now I differ in that, I think it did work. I think stimulus had an effect, just not an effect worth increasing our debt load. And, I think that is factually accurate that the stimulus brought down unemployment.

But every look at the economy, every kind of modeling, shows that compared to the government spending the money (remember, you aren't letting government tax less but spend the same, you want government to cut in whatever it loses in tax revenue), you gain at best 30% more efficiency. So you would, instead of adding 300 billion to the economy, you'd only add about 100 billion. Very optimistically.

"The present plan that you are defending stifles growth for the lower and middle classes and prevents upward mobility."

Maybe. But in our history as a country, our greatest period of prosperity was also a period of very high taxation, very high tax rates, and an incredibly complicated tax system with many deductions, loopholes, and exemptions. Correlation does not imply causation, but it is something to think about.

"Under the 2011 tax code Married Filing Jointly making $30,000 with no capital gains has a standard $11,600 deduction which leaves $18,400 taxable income at the rate of 15%. Tax owed is $2760. Net total income is $27,240.

Under my plan they would have a total income of $30,000 with the first $24,000 tax free. That leaves $6,000 taxable income with $600 paid. Total net income would be $29,400."

Alright, wait, fact check.

So under the current tax code, they'd pay $1,925 in taxes. Of course, assuming that the standard deduction is > itemizing. In fact, considering their income level, it is very likely that they are of the kind that pay 0% in federal income tax. Heck, even under a standard deduction, they would get a higher exemption with children, property taxes, EITC etc.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Leaving them speechless is amusing since

his father has been speaking truth for several decades.

The law cannot make a wicked person virtuous…God’s grace alone can accomplish such a thing.
Ron Paul - The Revolution

Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms. Ron Paul

Anyone read

the book?

I just started it, a couple of chapters in - truly sad and

shocking. People sent to Federal prison by the EPA for non-crimes or EPA created crimes.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know Peace." - Jimi Hendrix

I got it for my birthday.

I got it for my birthday. It's line behind The Brothers Karamazov

"You must be frank with the world; frankness is the child of honesty and courage...Never do anything wrong to make a friend or keep one...Above all do not appear to others what you are not" - Robert E. Lee, CSA

Rand

is building it, winning people over by speaking good sense and proposing workable solutions that anyone can see as being beneficial rather than extreme. This is great and I predict rapid growing support for him very soon.

Bump for embed!

Rand learned very well from his dad. We aren't finished yet. The REVOLution continues!

Rand spoke very well indeed!

Hope he gets the opportunity to educate "them" often!

Rand Paul 2016!

Mods, please embed the video.

“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till." -J.R.R. Tolkien

Future President Rand Paul....

left them speechless with his remarks. They were in shock that a politician in Washington actually "knows" what he is talking about when it comes to economics.

Rand Paul 2016 for Peace