5 votes


I am perplexed.

What do Catholics think is their most important moment for the continuance and foundational beginnings and development of the Catholic Church after the demise of the disciples?

I spoke with a Catholic Priest/Minister leader of a huge Cathedral after a mass awhile ago and I was stunned. He told me he was not a student of history when I approached him about this....

Frankly I was almost speechless for about an hour after this, not to say in the least almost horrified. I asked the deacon and he did not know as well or have any ideas.

I suggested to them that it must of been Constantine becoming Emperor. They gave me a blank stare and the priest was an elderly guy.

If you have any other opinions or facts on this topic plz help me unwind my perplexity regarding this topic.



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In case anyone is interested

Today, November 2, is All Soul's Day. If you're Catholic, it's a day to honor the dead and light a candle for them in church. By legend this is done in memory of those lost in helping them further their route to heaven and earning a halo.

I think my dead ex husband needs five candles.... so I hope the pope takes checks.

The demise of the apostles

is irrelevant to the beginnings of the catholic church. Catholicism is not rooted in the apostles or the true teaching of Scripture but in emperor Constantine as you pointed out. Constantine is the head of the catholic church and the papal succession starts with him.

The real Martin Luther

The truth is Martin Luther was an errant and heretical Augustinian priest who caused great damage to the Church by his disobedience to the authority of the Church and the infallability of the Pope. His denying of authority means there is no clear teaching and no clear teaching means chaos as seen by the over 20,000 different Protestant denominations in this country alone each thinking they have the true teaching of Christ. This spirit of disobedience led this heretical priest to marry a nun, dissolve the sacramental Church, while everyone makes up his own mind on what is wrong and what is right. He even dropped 7 books of the Bible he didn't like. All those pesky passages that point to THE One True Church were ripped away. He even misinterpreted that one passage that the heresy of Protestanism is based on , once saved always saved.


The religious authorities killed the prophets.

Jesus admonished the priests of His day for building monuments to the prophets and in dong so condemning their own actions in plotting to kill Him in the same way their ancestors killed the prophets they now honoured.

It is a record of history that the teachings of the prophets and the Son of God eventually harden into the traditions of the elders and the living Truth is banished from the doors of religions.

Those who followed Martin Luther have been just as guilty of this tendency as the Roman religious authorities. However the Father has not left Himself without a witness in the world and the scattered children of God outside the denominational Babylon continue to bear testimony to the Truth.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)


Without knowing this particular priest's training background, perhaps he meant that he was not a formally trained historian of the Church and could not adequately answer apart from the apostolic tradition handed down through St Peter and his successors. Such a question with qualifiers like most and foundational calls for personal assessments of historical developments in the Church that requires some thought and reflection and can be problematic if this priest was of the mind that the Incarnation himself was and continues to be the most foundational moment of the Church. Also, Catholic priests have different charisms with some gifted orators, others pastoral servants, and some scholars so to find one that is seemingly deficient in some way is to discount God's call to holiness and purpose for everyone, not just the cream of the crop in the seminary.

To answer the spirit of the question about "continuance" of the Church, it would seem to me that the evangelicalizing of St Paul helped to spread the Good news of the Church and had the most impact of her growth. Also, the Didache or teaching of the twelve Apostles written between 70-90AD served as an early catechism and manual of liturgy that would be influential in the early Church even after the time of the disciples.

Here's an interesting Catholic apologetics website that might be of some interest.

12 Disciples, - 1.

from scriptural records we find 12 disciples, then 1 of them turned traitor = Judas, that leaves 11. Paul was not one of them.


I don't believe I stated that St Paul was one of the original disciples. The question of the original post was relating to history of the Church and while I do not have the breadth of historical knowledge on this subject I do find it reasonable to assume that there was activity by the followers of Christ from the beginning of the Common Era until this day with the Didache as fruit from that earlier time.

Also there were other contemporary disciples of Christ but only a few that were recorded in scripture as belonging to the select twelve witnesses to the Resurrection, with St Matthias as the replacement for Judas in this regard.

Paul Not Ordained.

thank you for your attention & response, pls excuse my delayed reply. You are right, you did not state Paul was an original disciple.
You wrote = "it would seem to me that the evangelicalizing of St Paul helped to spread the Good news of the Church and had the most impact of her growth." While agreeing with the content, here is where I find some difference, i.e. his authority, he was not ordained if he was not of the 12. If he starts or joins the mission - then his status & capacity needs to be confirmed.

The teachings & instructions to the 12 are very clear =

* Matthew 10:5-6. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them as follows: 'Do not make your way to gentile territory, and do not enter any Samaritan town; 6 go instead to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

* Luke 24:47. 47 and that, in his Name, repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses to this.

Today we see nearly half of the books in the New Testament are from Paul. This is highly disproportionate, & questionable. Secondly, it is out of bounds, re target of teachings.

re Doctrine, that would make the post very long, internet offers a lot ~

I'm not sure...

I'm not sure if I understand (clearly) your question, but I believe this might be appropriate.

Apostolic Succession,


Catholic Answers (forums are awesome too) is a great resource for the learning and understanding of the faith. It helped me immensely during my conversion.

Hope it helps. :)

And yes, there is a massive lack of catechesis among the laity and even the ordained in many cases. It doesn't surprise me that you have had these experiences, unfortunately.


yes perhaps this is term I was searching for as well. Thanks.

Pax Vobiscum

ps. I just thought Constantine would just get a bit of credit for ending a bit of the carnage in the Roman Empire.


Catholics, as I am one, are a

Catholics, as I am one, are a huge population in the world and in our own country, and I'm sure a large number of your friends are also Catholic... but you talk about them on here as if they're aliens, lol.

OK thanks

I recall Catholics from an earlier paeriod more in tune with their heritage, if you will.


Good day to think about the 95 Theses

The Church is in constant need of reformation---because men will construct complicated systems to supplant and complicate an original doctrine...or almost any idea or organization. Jesus was constantly attacking the religious authorities of his own day.

I think what Martin Luther did on Oct 31, 1517 was the most important moment we can look back to...to see how he started to demolish the corrupt power of the "church." You know the Sistine Chapel, right? The church leadership/Pope created doctrines that allowed them to take the money of the people of Christendom so they could build this huge church---it took 100 years. They taught that you could save the souls of your relatives by giving money to the church---the church claimed the power of "indulgences" - the power to dispense grace/salvation. Martin Luther, a monk, dared to speak truth to power.

I love this one: #86
"Since the pope’s income today is larger than that of the wealthiest of wealthy men, why does he not build this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of indigent believers?"

#82 (Can you imagine saying this to the Pope at this time?)
"Why does not the pope liberate everyone from purgatory for the sake of love (a most holy thing) and because of the supreme necessity of their souls? This would be morally the best of all reasons. Meanwhile he redeems innumerable souls for money, a most perishable thing, with which to build St. Peter’s church, a very minor purpose."

Martin nailed these 95 statements/questions to the door of the cathedral requesting a public debate on them. Read them here:

Thanks for the reminder

so in 5 years is going to be the big-one - 500 - anniversary lol

Pax Vobiscum


The Medici Family rings a bell and

as far as your generalization of Catholics is concerned, don't be. As a lifelong Catholic brought up in a parochial school, I can tell you that Catholic children are amongst, at least in my state, the most rebellious group of critters on the planet earth. :)

Read Machiavelli.


"Discernment 2012 Professed Conversion of Constantine" and watch the video that comes up...

Catholicism Wasn't Around Until...

Constantine, as you said. Before him it was simply people running from persecution and meeting in homes to worship Jesus. Constantine began the era of the established church and enforced the religious aspect of Catholicism(sacraments, worship of the saints and other catholic rituals). This is what started the era of "Catholicism" and in my opinion is what corrupted the true church.

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That's not even remotely

That's not even remotely close to the Truth... They say Sola Scriptura but in all honesty, Christianity as we know it came a tremendous amount from oral traditions passed down the centuries. Way before Constantine. And we only worship ONE God, by the way.

"we only worship ONE "

+1, please elaborate, = magnify, to make absolutely clear.
also explain what is meant by trinity. thanks. & best wishes.

Thank you

I appreciate it.

Constantine's mother Helena was supposedly a Christian.

I have delved into the history of Constantine from various sources.

At least the persecutions subsided and eventually ended. Thus I think it was not all that bad imo.

Thanks again,


Didn't the Church become the Persecutor?


"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Yes it did.

The catholic church has a vile history of persecution.

Keep in mind that

for the founders, popes and leaders of Catholicism it was more of a politics than a religion. (still is).
Catholic history is also quite different to other religious history.

Reception of Currency

Would have to be their greatest achievement.

They that give up liberty for security deserve neither.