4 votes

More tyranny! Los Angeles bans purebred pets from being sold in stores -!

Although I support the need to solve the problem of too many pets being put down, this goes too far. More job killing...

"L.A. council votes to ban stores from selling non-rescue dogs, cats.

Los Angeles lawmakers on Wednesday voted in favor of an ordinance that will make L.A. the largest city in America to ban pet stores from selling dogs, cats and rabbits obtained from commercial breeders.

The ordinance, which the City Council voted 12-2 to approve, targets puppy mills and is designed to cut down on the tens of thousands of animals euthanized each year in city shelters.

Under the law, individuals will still be allowed to buy directly from breeders, and pet stores will be allowed to sell animals that come from shelters, humane societies and registered rescue groups. Stores found to be selling animals from breeders may face misdemeanor charges and a first-time penalty of $250."

Fulle article

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/10/la-pet-store-s...

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Brian this post has generated

Brian this post has generated an interesting and thought provoking converstation thread, thanks for putting it up!

If my need to be RIGHT is greater than my desire for TRUTH, then I will not recognize it when it arrives ~ Libertybelle

You are very welcome.. ;)

You are very welcome.. ;)

If you disagree with me on anything you are not a real libertarian...

Tyranny is a bit of an exaggeration imo. Maybe its good ...

... and it will prevent more animal cruelty and deaths. Maybe it's dumb, and it will have unintended or the opposite effects.

Maybe its a boost. Or maybe its a drag on the economy.

But if you live in LA (or any other local or state government where this kind of law is in effect):

Get Involved.

Fight the law where you are. Get in the face of the council. Start a petition. Run for office.

Under our Constitutional Republic - as it stands in Law, and not as it has been subverted in reality - it is *exactly* this kind of thing that is Lawfully in the domain of the local and state governments to handle.

Tyranny would be the *Federal* government passing this kind of detailed economic law applying to the entire country, creating a massive bureaucracy to administer it, taxing the entire nation to fund it, and sending out small armies of armed agents to collect the funding and intimidate pet shop owners and breeders to enforce it.

There is a tendency of people on this board to cry "tyranny!" to any law and regulation that they find stupid and oppressive on a local level. NYC soft drink laws are another example:

Oh yes. Over-reach and stupidity on a profound level, no doubt.

But: Perfectly within the pursue of a local authority to try ridiculous laws as long as they are not fundamentally in opposition to the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

IF the people in those local communities and states feel oppressed, THEN they have an obligation - and the means, through local access - to get RIGHT IN THE FACES of the representatives that passed it, and get it annulled.

Or just adopt a rescue pet.

Or just adopt a rescue pet.

Animal slavery?

I understand at the Federal level this law is un-Constitutional as animal rights are not protected under the Constitution. But don't local governments, if their State constitution allows, have the authority to establish city ordinances extending to animal trade? It wasn't long ago that humans could be bought and paid for, come to think of it, banks continue to dupe people into selling themselves every day.
grant

It's Constitutional.

However all because it is allowed under the Constitution, doesn't make it right or just, it just gives the council authority. After all banning large sodas is constitutional

It is an enormous simplification to speak of the American mind. Every American has his own mind.

~Ludwig von Mises

pets - dogs

Unless people have at least half an acre of property they should not have dogs. People who have dogs in an apartment or truck should be charged with cruelty to animals and be jailed for one year imo.

donvino

well...

I have to agree in that a big active dog needs a place to be active. Even a little active dog needs some running room. There are breeds that are perfectly happy curled up on the couch or at your feet but even they should have the option of tearing it up and having fun.

Garnet
Daughter of 1776 American Revolutionists

My two dogs will sure miss me

when the government takes me away in cuffs. Little Dexter will be devastated. No more sleeping on the sofa for him and his pal Zoot. No more jumping into the car to go for a ride. No more curling up under my feet in the office, like they are right now. The back door is open, but there are, regrettably, no authorities here to force them to go outside. They might not want to go outside, but what do they know? They are mere canines, not much smarter than mundanes such as myself. The State is much better situated than I to know what makes my little friends healthy and happy.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

Really? My friends Chihuahua

Really? My friends Chihuahua gets lost in my yard everytime she comes to visit, she freaks out and goes and hides in the house! LOL! But seriously, Although I live on an acre and my Lab runs freely across it, I see many urban pet lovers who do a wonderful job of walking and playing with their dogs, to strip away that relationship by force of law, that is of benefit to both would be, to me, sad indeed.

I am more seriously concerned with your attitude of: If people don't see it my way, make another law and then lock 'em up if they break it. Why are even some Liberty people so quick to resort to government force (violence)to make other people do what they want or think they should do? Should is an awfully big word to use on anyone other then yourself. To me the thought of being put in a cage and stripped of my freedom is a far worse punishment then death.

Why not put your passion into a foundation called the Hounds Half Acre and see if you can educate people to see what you see as humane treatment, and convinnce them to emmulate you of their own free will?

If my need to be RIGHT is greater than my desire for TRUTH, then I will not recognize it when it arrives ~ Libertybelle

Really? People with dogs in

Really? People with dogs in apartments should be charged criminally?

If you disagree with me on anything you are not a real libertarian...

as long as you can buy any pet, there will be over production of

pets.

Since the consumer wants the animal at purchase time, sellers must have an inventory. Buyers don't order months in advance.

To create an inventory, sellers/breeders typically produce lots of undesired animals. For every litter, more than half aren't worth their overhead. So more than half are disposed of as babies...they never get a chance to be on the pet market. Many animal babies are sold as food.

And of those that get on the market, half aren't sold and are put down. Of the remaining, about half are sold to abusive owners. Leaving about 12.5% sold to decent owners. And that's cats and dogs. Fish and birds have much worse odds.

So Im in favor of banning the selling of animals for pets. There are plenty of animals in rescue shelters and pounds now.

I'd think life lovers here would have already understood this.

Why should anyone decide what

Why should anyone decide what should and should not be sold at the store? And why would anyone buy a mutt from a store when they can get it for free at the shelter?

More businesses going out of business...

You not much a fan of the free market?

If you disagree with me on anything you are not a real libertarian...

*thinking*

The problem is not the selling of purebred dogs in pet shops.. it's the often inhumane living conditions and questionable genetic health of the parent dogs resulting in possibly defective or sickly puppies being sold to unsuspecting buyers. Puppy Mills and unethical back yard breeders are the problem.

Now that I think of it.. buying a puppy should have a 10 day waiting period just like buying a gun. and I also believe that if you breed a puppy you must be legally and morally willing to take that puppy back at any stage of its life and be responsible for it.

Garnet
Daughter of 1776 American Revolutionists

?

Who here is in favor of puppy mills and back yard breeders supplying poor puppies to pet shops to sell to unsuspecting buyers??? If you stop the source of the problem you stop the result of the problem, right?

I grew up next to what would be described now as a puppy mill/show kennel.. to be honest they probably would have done jail time. I didn't know any better then but after the dogs were mostly gone I took over the property to build into an iris nursery.. what I found in the soil and thick on the ground in one part of the property would shock you.

Garnet
Daughter of 1776 American Revolutionists

are you for the selling of humans....free market and all

I'll presume you'd say no. So our difference is about putting animals in the same category as humans. Not about the free market, but nice dramatic try.

Want to see my drama...pets are companion/protection slaves. They are sold, imprisoned, shackled, trained, etc. against their will. Like past human slave owners, animal slave owners think their slave is part of their family. A happy slave isnt a slave. Bull.

Like human slaves, animal slaves will try to escape if they can. That's why animal slaves have to be minded when outside. Let your front door open and let them decide. They will leave if given the chance. Like human slave owners, animal slave owners think it's cruel to let slaves free because they don't know how to live free.

So the 12.5% that have decent owners are STILL slaves that will have their wills crushed so the owner can have some companionship. Pathetic.

Animals should not be sold as pets (including zoos)...because it is slavery.

What about dogs in aboriginal

What about dogs in aboriginal societies? No fences, no doors and yet the dogs freely choose to live with the people, no other species does this. I think there may be a deeper, more 'evolved together' connection with the dog/human relationship, then with any other animal species on the planet, even cats.

Although I can agree with certain aspects of your arguement in regards to livestock, birds, fish and exotics species in zoos. I will not visit or support zoos due to the reasons you explain, and as to Circuses and Seaworld - I cannot tolerate them and I never go!

As a Libertarian, I feel that education is the key, and more and more people are waking up and starting to see animal/human relationship in a new light and will feel like you and adjust their behavior as their awareness increases.

Just as slavery was disappearing to raising of the collective consciousness all over the world at the advent of the civil war, I believe that over time, that education will be more effective then government force, to freeing the beautiful animals and it supports a a free society rather then more laws and an increase in the size and scope of government force.

If my need to be RIGHT is greater than my desire for TRUTH, then I will not recognize it when it arrives ~ Libertybelle

if they aren't conditioned to stay and have the opportunity to

leave....and they choose to stay, that doesn't bother me...as long as they weren't bought.

In all fairness, I did

In all fairness, I did condition my dog to stay as I provide food and water and adoration. He digs on the adoration thing! I did travel to Utah to purchase my friend so I guess that that would put me in the slavemaster catagory. Although I doubt it has ever crossed my friend's mind that he is a slave...whereas human slaves are aware of the condition. Does awareness of the condition matter?

The next leap is that we are all slaves in one way or another, some aware and some not and the awareness of my servitude has had a detrimental effect on my overall sense of well being, that I did not have before I realized I was a slave... but that is a whole new can of worms!

I am not judging nor argueing with you to score an ego point, just thinking about and exploring the ideas that you have brought up.

If my need to be RIGHT is greater than my desire for TRUTH, then I will not recognize it when it arrives ~ Libertybelle

Do you believe education and

Do you believe education and free choice is the solution or feel that the quicker 'fix' of government force is what is required?

If my need to be RIGHT is greater than my desire for TRUTH, then I will not recognize it when it arrives ~ Libertybelle

I was just studying this in management

Behavioral control comes from a combination of culture, reward, and boundaries. Education and free choice falls under culture. Laws fall under boundaries.

Supposedly, a firm typically has to start off with all three, but with lots of cultural cultivation, the firm can make a shift away from boundaries (rules) to reward/culture.

But that's within a firm...not our nation. Our nation has millions of people that take glee in breaking the laws. They pretend to be culture-compliant and law-compliant, but secretly commit offenses. From cheating, to speeding, to illegal downloading, to not snitching, etc., people seem to not be moral enough for education and free choice to matter. And our leaders are the worst, spending gobs of money/time/effort to build up their moral credibility, but still doing all sorts of bad things.

People are illegally trafficking humans, making dogs fight, etc.

So, yeah, we need laws to minimize humans from enslaving animals. In fact, especially to minimize humans from enslaving animals. People have social needs and will do anything to appease them. They lie, cheat, steal, bully, beat, enslave, etc. to get social needs met. No education, peer pressure, etc. will ever be enough to get people to treat humans faily, much less animals. If animal slavery becomes popular enough, people will just nod their head agreeing that it's wrong, but still enslave animals.

Frankly, right now, the culture is that owning animals is a good thing. People love their "pets" like family members more than ever.

Indeed, like with smoking, education will be the spearhead to get people psychologically prepared for the law.

Invasion into the liberty of

Invasion into the liberty of contract.

Southern Agrarian