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Why isn't defaulting on the debt part of the debate? Can we shift the parameters debate so it is?

à la "Overton Window"



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The debt includes all the money we owe to the Social Security

Trust Fund.

Thats right. After the Federal Reserve - the LARGEST holder of US debt - bigger than China and Japan and all the other countries put together - is the Social Security Trust Fund.

Do you really want us defaulting on that?

Because if we default on the debt we lose credibility and nobody

will loan to us again.

The REASON we are able to borrow is that they know we will pay back.

And if your argument is "Fine. We don't have to worry about that. We shouldn't borrow anyway".

Then I remind you that about $5 trillion of that debt we would be defaulting on is the money we have borrowed from the Social Security Trust Fund.

THATS RIGHT. After the Federal Reserve - the biggest holder of US debt in that $16 trillion = is the Social Security Trust Fund - it holds way more than China and all the other countries put together.

So we would be defaulting on OURSELVES and Social Security really would be bankrupt with no chance of resurection ever.

14th amendment, US constitution

Section. 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

they are defaulting... when

they are defaulting... when the dollar buys 0 it's a default.. and the printing presses keep rolling.

It's not part of the debate in the mainstream....

...for the same reason abolishing the Fed isn't, it's contrary to the interests of the people who control that debate.

But it should be part of the debate, and it is part of the debate within the Liberty Movement. Libertarians have been saying this for years. Murray Rothbard advocated default years ago, so did Robert Murphy more recently, so have many others.

The thing is, if you're going to default on the debt, you must have a balanced budget thereafter, as the USG would be locked out of the bond market, or charged extremely high rates of interest. We need to win the spending and size of government debate first, then we can talk about defaulting on the debt. Same with the gold standard, by the way, need to balance the budget first.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

Because the Banksters control the debate

they don't want their indentured servants defaulting. That would defeat the purpose.

Why isn't it part of the

Why isn't it part of the debate you say?

How much does it take to buy a congressman?

Southern Agrarian

We don't need to go default

All we need to do is focus on the real economy. If we created jobs from no interest loans and donations (smaller scale) from OUR assets and kept the banks out of the loop, those jobs would not be subject to the interest/stock market scams that the other companies are. They would thrive and prosper even without the perpetual growth model, even while lower prices and raising wages.

Then we the people will have extra money to 'save' or create productivity from, which will further the movement. Fast forward a little bit and predict what it would really take to satisfy all of our peoples' basic needs. It's really not that much in the distributed ability, interconnected world we live in.

At some point, enough people will see that we don't need some big conglomerate (be it a bank, a multinational corporation or even a government program) and we can effectively boycott it. Under today's over-leveraged, stock-rally-hype business model, even a shrinkage of a few % repeated a few times is enough to drive nearly every mega-corporation into oblivion.

tasmlab's picture

The day after and beyond

Have to discuss what happens after the default. Lot of poor people and elders will be lost in the woods and perhaps million(s) of govt employees hitting the street and hundreds of millions of Americans blaming capitalism and looking for someone to hang.

Currently consuming: Morehouse's "Better off free", FDR; Wii U; NEP Football

money should be created debt

money should be created debt free anyway, so defaulting brings it back to its normal status since it still exists.

Also, the US is already bankrupt see here: http://tinyurl.com/64ap8nt

Comic book debate?

My daughter just opened her first savings account with "free" checking.

No fees?

So I go along for the comic relief.

At the end, just before my daughter leaves with the papers, and the card, and the thanks for doing business I ask the following question:

"What is the effective interest rate on the savings account?"

My daughter gives me "the look".

Up to that point, just before leaving, the subject of any interest rate is interestingly absent between paying customer and service provider for pay.

The bank employee, nice guy, fun guy, becomes somewhat more serious, and repeats. "Effective interest rate." and he starts looking for the records.

I say: "Yes, the interest rate minus the rate of inflation."

The bank employee looks more interestingly serious, and his eyebrows raise some.

My daughter gives me the back of her hand.

The nice guy dismisses the inflation rate comment outright and he goes for the interest rate figure and offers the bad news to my daughter, well, it turns out that there is a reason why the interest rate is not given up voluntarily as it is .01 percent.

Debate?

Really?

Quotes:

"Why isn't defaulting on the debt part of the debate? Can we shift the parameters debate so it is?"

Hello! Hello? Is there anyone out there?

The so called Debt in question is in fact a well documented crime spree in progress called fraud and extortion.

Play the comic book debate and what do you think it will cost?

Who do you think will be paying the bill for playing the comic book debate?

How about growing up instead.

Joe

Effective Interest Rates & Defaulting on the American People

http://www.dailypaul.com/261689/silver-dimes-silver-quarters...

http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2817491

http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2818490

Those interest rates that they used to be so pround of...

So you get "looks" and the "back-hand" lol

Maybe you made the bank guy think! I bet it was a fun trip.

OK

Fun.

I went to Reno, you know, the Liberty Conference, awhile ago, and my objective was the same as the time I went to the Mises Institute Conference on Financial Markets on Las Vegas.

I want to compare notes.

This time I pay extra to get a special deal on close association with a expert in the field, on economics, right?

So I want to compare notes, to learn something, test my perspective competitively, they say pay more, and you can even ask questions of the speaker.

Wow!

My daughter gave me more air time waiting at the bank lobby than the guy I paid to gain access in Reno.

I was given the bums rush in Reno, in, out, no questions, just a load of crap on how the solar panels and electric cars were subsidized in an otherwise free market - or some such nonsense.

The well paid speaker gave me no time.

My daughter asks: "What should I do to buy a car?"

I say save up your Federal Reserve Note Fraud tickets, if that is what you have to invest in, for now, and shop around, test driving the Leaf car from Nissan, the assumption here is that you will be able to get a steady job, and you will have a fuel bill, 400 whatever units per month, and you get to drive past the gas stations in a new car with a warrantee, and if you lose your job, the get the car, but if you keep the job, and if things go the way they are going, your investment cashing in as gas prices price everyone else out of the market.

Keep your eyes open, meanwhile, I can still taxi you, and you might stumble on a deal like we have with a gas powered car that has low mileage, from a little old lady who died and left here house and car to a trustee, who hires your mom to sell the house, and asks if anyone needs a good car for cheap.

If you don't buy new, and you don't have the warrantee, like your brother, buying cheap, a cop car sold at auction to a former cop car repair man with an inside deal, a fix up shop, and a steady stream of cop cars, then you get a cheap car, the gas bill, and if the transmission goes out, you are back to square one and you have already worked 6 months for nothing.

A risk, so you go back to go, in the monopoly game, but you get a bad card on the deck.

You don't get something for nothing, but the 400 you are handing each month to the Monopoly Oil companies is now about 400 per month being handed to the Monopoly Loan Shark people, and a lump sum handed over to the people making Electic Cars in Japan.

After 5 years, or so, whatever, you get the car, and Japanese cars are known for long service and good resale, but in 5 years what do you think will be the price of gasoline?

I did not have the time to go into further detail, we saw a Music shop, a new one, in town, and so we stole away some time to see what our small town has now to offer in the Music industry.

It was a sad story, and I continued narrating.

I was not able to do any narrating when I worked all the time.

Now I do.

How much does it cost when costs are passed onto the honest hard working people as a rule, not an exception?

I mention the California made electric car, but that is currently out of her league, unless she gets a very good job, and then you know, it takes money to make money.

When the kids are smarter than the well paid experts, I guess that is the definition of hope.

Joe

Maybe

she can work for this guy: http://www.kitco.com/KitcoNewsVideo/index.html?v=12-10-26%20...

and get a Leaf and keep it? At 3-5+ minutes he starts talking education...seems he doesn't think it takes money to make money.

Seems he doesn't care to higher someone with a degree...but someone with personal skills...kinda sounds like Joe on a Cat would be qualified.

Maybe he isn't like one of the bums in Reno.

(I wouldn't mind if you listened to the whole video and critiqued for truth.)

...

Bingo!

02:52
The government did it.

04:29
The government did it.

06:02
Make the government do it.

06:18
"They" are both Collectivists. (rhetoric)
"They are both Statist. (rhetoric)
The only difference is the rhetoric that "they" use.
Which part of the "Mob" they want to appeal to. (rhetoric)
The "Mob" did it.

06:50
Gold Bug rhetoric (I wonder where his hedge bets are banking on future storms, and driving them as an obvious consequence?)

07:26
Gold is the only financial asset that is not simultaneously someone else's liability. (what about whiskey, tomato jars, solar panels, electric cars, modular vertical farming units, those skills he spoke of earlier with his other tongue outside the other side of his face, etc.)

07:40
How stupid the government is...
The stupid government did it.
The same people with mansions in every State, profiting on everything, all the time, yea, those stupid ones, as they have the victims begging for more torture and mass murder on their own hides, yea, that stupid government.

07:44
The Mob did it again.

08:05
"They" are going to inflate the currency. (the one and only)
The government did it.

What do you think happens when I go to a place like that?

Exile

Knowledge has to be made scarce so as to jack up the price of it?

Ask any Gold Bug, please, go ahead, how much interest is generated by Gold?

If the MOB did it, then how did the government do it?

Is that bait and switch?

Join us, we know, buy Gold, before it is too late, and then you too can be as rich and powerful as us, so rich and powerful, that you too can move your power to drive the economy and make the future as bright as Gold!

OK, sure, how about all those people in all those Third World Countries, visited by all those Economic Hit Men, where they have the choice of dying miserably working harder for less, or dying miserably fighting against the Economic Hit Men, Jackals, Graduates of the School of the Americas, tortured, and piled high?

Stop, sure, stop all that funny business, in your Third World Country, don't listen to the counter-revolutionary-socialist-reformers, and buy Gold, and join the fun, have some cake, and invest in Gold, like us, we are capitalists, and proud of it!

Really?

"Gold is the only financial asset that is not simultaneously someone else's liability."

Gold is the Legal Criminals Liability and that is why they are buying it all up.

Gold is a very good honest, accurate, hard to counterfeit, form of economic money, a currency, but it does not compare to electricity well, since Gold has no power in it, other than as a conductor, or a power to dazzle the human mind.

Gold is very well known as a liability for those supposed Stupid Government People who just so happen to be making fraudulent pieces of paper, with lie written on them, well documented lies, red handed lies, and then buying gold with those lies, because they are stupid?

What do you think happens to me as soon as I open my mouth, or write a note, and hand it to someone at one of those conferences?

Psssst, the anarchist is here, watch out.

Notice the Bait and Switch going on, double speak, as the Mob THING does it, and then the Government THING does it, and then the MOB again, and the answer to our problems is the capital of human responsibility, and then Gold is the answer, and then the liars lie, as the liar lies.

They are smart, all right, and they know where to hedge their bets, because they are much closer to the source of the fraudulent power, and they have joined'em, because, they say, well, really, you can't beat'em.

Sometimes the truth be told, even by those who, as a rule, censor the truth, and avoid the competition, and distort the facts, and lie, and play games, so you got another ear full from me, and there are no challengers.

I've looked.

It is a world wide web.

Who challenges my viewpoint?

I've been at it for decades.

When good people demand the truth, there will be no storm, no eye, no before, no after, no storm, the Legal Criminals will wake up with no more volunteers.

Joe

Pssst

Could you please pass me a napkin, I need to wipe the foam from my mouth. And then could you tell me, who are these people: "counter-revolutionary-socialist-reformers?"

Thank your listening for me. Don't you know I listen and what I think I hear is truth?

He does call the government "these idiots" so he does seem to attribute actions to people within the thing of government.

Bait or Switch

"counter-revolutionary-socialist-reformers?"

Which part of the Psycho are we in now?

Team A saves everyone from Team B.

Team C on deck.

Team C saves everyone from Team A.

Team B on deck.

Thesis - Antithesis = Synthesis

Oceania, Eurasia, and Eastasia

Hey, weren't those old bosses, really, really, bad?

How bout those new bosses aye?

Joe

Joe,

It is too much. I can hardly wrap my mind around it because all I can think of are the people caught in the middle.

You have a safe place

I don't know how to point you to that which is in your own mind already, you exude it, but you don't know that it is yours to command?

Joe

My Safe Place

is in the Lord. I can pray for the people in the middle. I need to realize that help for them and do it. I suppose that is why my step-father, everytime we pray asks for the Lord to divide what is ours and give it to the hungry. He saw children eating out of garbage dumps in Korea and it still affects him.

I have always thought in the past, well why don't we just give those people out of the bounty we have. I suppose there is not enough to go around to all, so it is something we ask the Lord to help with. I think I understand that better now too. Thank you Joe :)

Thanks Josf and Bear

What a great run that was. Just when I am really disgusted with the DP I read a run like this and LOVE it. I was right there with you two!

Pray for God's people and little children in ancient Samaria and Galilee and all the places the Word walked.. Use the Word of God from the ancient place where the Word came forth for all the people everywhere. Team A, Team B, Team C,....Team Infinity=United for our brothers and sisters and the little children caught in the middle suffering from unspeakable evil committed in our small "n" names. Rebuke those who are cheering as these innocents are thrown into the modern world's version of the Colosseum with lions ravishing them and the slaves (paid murderers) perform as gladiators for their
overlords' debased entertainment.

Man, I sound like a street preacher! I don't understand how anything so wrong can be considered right by anyone.

fonta

Thank you fonta...

...I am trying to learn how to pray for such things as the innocent being torn apart by criminal wars...You have brought it to the forefront of my thoughts…and it is troubling. I wonder what God thinks about his creation who can also create in a limited fashion; and some of that creation have chosen to spend effort creating evil things, and then use those evil things to hurt innocent people.

It is troubling to go from the day when a club was used in hand-to-hand combat to weapons of mass destruction that wreak havoc upon “collateral damage.” Just what is collateral damage? The “price” of war inflicted upon the innocent? What is worth the price of innocent life?

May the Prince of Peace come, and yet that causes me to care for those who do not know the Prince of Peace...so I must pray

Matthew 6:10 KJV
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

because the matter is so weighty.

I haven't answered till now because I have been struggling with the issue.

go to youtube watch 'Money As

go to youtube watch 'Money As Debt"

God wants us to do it.

Jubilee.
Leviticus 25:10 ESV

"And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants..."

How is it that every Bible thumper in American misses this?

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Jubilee = Clearance of Debt$.

+1, yes, Jubilee should be mentioned /reminded = when resolution of long-term debts are being discussed. It is Time. Thanks.

Hey fishy,

I saw your comment this morning...didn't see the last line lol...
I was thinking about it while running an errand anyways, my thought on your last line...Jubilee is taught as history, or a God's command to Israel, but the economic implications are not discussed. Perhaps while an economy is booming nobody cares about Jubilee? Or no one understands because the web of deceit is too tangled to understand something so simple.

I now understand how God leveled the playing field every 50 years so that power sources stayed competitive instead of monopolistic. And the significance of that is amazing to me in my awakened state.

Thanks for sharing that, bear!

If you really look into it, it solves many of our earthly problems. There are a couple different aspects to the "Jubilee" concept, one pertains to land management and you rest the land that year (I think it is a 7 year cycle) too. Our food, even organic stuff, is becoming mineral and nutrient depleted because our soil is over-used. If we let the fruits fall to the ground sometimes it would keep the soil enriched.
It is a real solution, but it is almost as if everyone disregards it because it is from the Bible. That is most surprising from Christians, so it is double fun to have a Christian "get it."
Peace and hugs!

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

I already skip my garden every 7 years

:)

Walkin' it - you rock!

Funny, I am surrounded by "Bears" these days - you are one of three - makes me feel like "Goldilocks" - but I won't take your porridge! lol!

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

I'm the little bear so please

I'm the little bear so please don't break my chair and my bed either lol and I'll ask mom and dad if you can have some of the extra porridge lol