-71 votes

Ron Paul Would Not Have Won

#1 -- He lost (that's why he wouldn't have won)

#2 -- Most people voted Obama or Romney owing to which one they found most charming, manly, virile, articulate or attractive. There has not been a president who won the office for any other reason (then one or all of those) in a very long time (pre-Kennedy).

#3 -- Ron Paul would not have won because his talking points are way-way-way over people's heads. All living Great Grandparents learned "big gov't" economics and politics growing up (let alone their children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren). There has not been a national "small gov't" president (beyond rhetoric) since Taft and Coolidge.

Reagan was a "rhetoric small-gov't" politician -- always big gov't.

#4 -- Less than 10% of the people who vote could articulate (beyond one or two talking points) "why" they'd vote RP over Obama -- Don't worry because they can't remember a lick of what Obama says beyond the 30 sec sound bites.

Just watch interviews when the "average American" talks about why they voted Obama or Romney -- "he's for hope" -- "he's for small businesses (I'm a small business owner)" -- "he helps immigrants"

The savviest of them might say "the economy is better (can't explain why)" and if they are pro-Romney might say "the economy is worse (can't articulate why beyond saying "jobless rate is up").

Voting and Lobbying (AS I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS NOW) is: An Abdication of Consumer-Sovereignty (a circumvention of consumer-rule) and An attempt at Bribing the future voting trend of said elected one.

Abdication -- Bribery

How can you get liberty from that -- You can't answer it (beyond a sound bite) whether you agree with it or not.

We live in an era that is driven by fear (fear of the unknown) and we want assurances that our progeny will carry on (right-seeking / guarantees).

Now you could have a Transition Gov't I've articulated and enumerated all the points and conventions of such a system.

But it must have two absolutes:

1) A 1,000 person voting class (a rotating class of highly qualified voters whose reputations would be tarnished if they picked the wrong team).

2) The Federal and State elected "teams" could only serve one-term and were paid solely based on innovation and savings (better services at lower costs).

Since most DPers wont agree to that type of gov't I have little hope of having anything other than what we have now going forward.

The World Gov't is pushing toward world-hegemony -- all men created equal and thus have an equal share of the pie (less the elitist rulers at the top).



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Michael Nystrom's picture

The number of downvotes - now minus 62

Also illustrate Octobox's points.

Few here have the power and perseverance to reveal the obvious by telling unpleasant truths than the Octo Boxer.

Keep it up, friend. Your efforts are not in vain.

He's the man.

You Are Of Course Right...-62 and Climbing

If someone like me with limited background in all of these major areas can recognize when I am being mentored by someone like Octo Boxer I do not understand why more do not.

Several years ago I was first intrigued by him and asked some questions. He trusted me enough to say.."shhh. I am hunting wabbits." I never forgot that and also am grateful that he stops here from time to time and "hunts wabbits." But he will lose his perseverance I am afraid when there are no more "wabbits" which I interpret to mean those who are open to being challenged and thinking in directions they have never thought before and welcoming the opportunity. I, for one will always be that kind of "wabbit" and welcome OctoBox-type reality jolts....pointing out that my thinking just might be in error.

Like you I am discouraged by the resistance to "start" with the obvious and reality. It almost seems that we are just starting round three of same old same old.

Power and perseverance...you, too, have shown those qualities by continuing to provide this mixed bag forum. Thank you.

fonta

That really cracked me up -- I forgot I said that to you

The inner workings of my mind is a combination of the Clockwork Orange, Theatre of the Absurd, and where Hesse (Glass Bead Game) meets Asminov (I Robot)......with a splash of Doctor Seuss.

THAT Explains A Lot

...however, I am not surprised.

I used to invite various people I had met in person or had read to a party in my head. I would then sit on the couch (actually on the edge of it) and "imagine" what questions they would ask each other and what new thinking might emerge.

Excuse me. I have an invitation to write to Hesse, Asminov and Dr. Seuss, but first I am going to do some reading so I can benefit most from the experience.

(*Curtsy* Now imagining what a curtsy from a "wabbit" and "gwasshopper" might look like. Oh yes, I could also do a little gene splicing and image what a gwasshopper-wabbit might look like. The inner workings of my mind are difficult to deal with and, yet, at least there is no boredom!)

fonta

I believe

He could not have won simply because he doesn't support the "petro-dollar paradigm" and the Israeli lobby. He wants out of the mid-east and wants competing currencies because he is against the manner in which we prop up the US dollar, i.e making an example out of Saddam/Gaddafi and soon to be Iran/Syria. He is no dummy. He knows that is what is keeping our dollar artificially over-valued and would put an end to it. Which in turn would bring upon a massive depression, but a necessary cleansing of the system. I believe that is the only way things will eventually get better. Things have to collapse first, and TPTB will do everything in their all encompassing power to not let that happen.

"I am Troll fighter, number one"

-Ernest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxWb-ViejPg

Dr. Paul most certainly would

Dr. Paul most certainly would have won, by a landslide, had the media at large donated $10,000,000,000+ in airtime and print like they did for the primary candidates, Romney and Obama the Ron Paul train would have had such momentum that all states would have easily elected him.
But you are right. In our current circumstances with state/corporate controlled media he had a snowball's chance in hell.
We failed to realize how deeply corrupt our 'news' organizations are. We naively assumed that if Paul got enough donations they would give him equal airtime and respect. We assumed that the second place victory in Iowa would have been noticed, but we saw it blatantly ignored. We assumed that in caucus after caucus, convention after convention, that which so much cellphone video, eye-witness accounts of corruption, rules violations, law breaking, assaults, false arrests, that even one national news org would rise to their duty and report this fraud. But alas, we assumed wrong. Instead we got stories of a college student wanting birth control pills from the government.

The media is our enemy, it is the blue pill that many are reluctant to give up. But there is hope. With Romney's 'shocking' loss many are beginning to question things.

The only conclusion I can come to

From your post is? John Galt strike?

I think if Ron Paul Would

I think if Ron Paul Would have had the chance to debate obama he would have destroyed him, hell even rommmey even supposedly won one. lol

You forgot one HUGE thing

Ron Paul would not (did not) have won because the establishment, and its media arm, would not allow it. They marginalized him, when not blacking him out entirely.

It's impossible to win, today, within that reality.

And THAT Was One

...of Octobox's points. Had Ron Paul been elected President, given our system, the best he could have done is to continue waking people up to the fact that this system is not working.

We need critical mass waking up to that *fact*... And we need to stop listening to the hype, because the media is rigged. The voting is rigged. The Fed is rigged. Congress is rigged. Global corporations get a pass and are rigged. Slowly infiltrate is one prong.Education is always an important prong. Supporting all liberty candidates is another prong. Rebuilding our communities and local government is a prong. But we also need to start envisioning the critical transition period or very little is going to change and we are dreaming. We are up against a monster of huge magnitude. However, once stripped of its power it is much like the Wizard in the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz. A little straw man.

However we also have to deal with ...call them dumbed down or whatever...the masses. We have the brain-dead and we have the dumbed-down and we have fearful executives and upper management. That is just the reality. I am an optomist; however, I also see the reality.

Because there is a Ron Paul there are others. I like to think of them as (1)those being mentored and we are in that group and (2)the elders...those doing the mentoring or those who could be doing the mentoring. The elders, the mentors would, in a more perfect less narcissistic society, be cherished and placed in high positions. They would make the "big" decisions on behalf of those no longer capable of making "big" decisions. That, I believe, is along the lines of what Octobox calls a transition government. The kind of transition government that can effect a return to values where altruism is not a government hand-out. Where education is based on real history, thinking is encouraged rather than manipulated. Where free markets foster industrial creativity and those who contribute to it are rewarded. Where pure competition is not only allowed, but encouraged.

If you consider that we are below ground zero at point A and we want to get to point C with liberty and free markets, we better recognize that we ARE below ground zero and anything other than a well-planned transition is going to result in another head stuck on the suit with the red, white and blue tie and the puppet strings in the same hands. No change.

fonta

A number of points in the

A number of points in the post are valid.

The vast majority cannot understand why parental government is a bad thing. They've also been conditioned for generations that theft through government is valid. They are easily manipulated socially and vote their emotions and perceptions.

Educating them, breaking the spell, bringing them into rationality, into ethical consistency, and so on is an uphill battle. Achieving that in one election cycle is unlikely.

Now if RP had won the nomination then 'team R' folks would have had to either hold their nose or stay home. The war mongering crowd would have likely stayed home or voted Obama.

Ron Paul would not have won.

Ron Paul would not have won. But not for any of the reasons you cite. He would not have won because of the official vote tally, which has nothing to do with reality.

We're all still taking about the vote and how stupid the sheeple are for voting for this candidate or that. But this assertion wrongly assumes our votes matter. Come on. They only matter if they don't matter, i.e. Romney vs. Obama.

This is the truth. I

This is the truth. I personally think Ron Paul would win a fair election.

Ventura 2012

It sure sounds like OctoBox ...

1. Sir, in your opinion then, are we better off, worse off or it mattered not at all that Ron Paul was not elected?
2. If voting should be avoided since it is an abdicaton of consumer-sovereignty, then why write about it either?
3. What would be the qualifications of the highly qualified voters in the transition government? How would they be appointed, elected or selected to their posiitions?

Fritz: Let me start by saying

"thanks" for the reasonable reply.

#1a We are better-off with Obama (than Romney) because transitioning one family out and one family in cost millions of dollars -- also, it takes a lot of time to build bridges in a new presidency. Since Obama and Romney are the same guy (make money for the corporatist-rich -- rich individuals, rich corporations, and rich unions) it makes no difference who is in office policy wise.

#1b We would have been better-off (emotionally and economically) if Paul got elected -- however he would have received two-parties blocking his presidency not one and probably would have went down as the most ineffectual president ever (using the bi-partisan both-sides wash the hands of the powerful and only look to be feuding that all american history qualifies). I would have liked to see that train-wreck though -- Paul standing before congress vetoing every single bill that crossed his desk.

#2 Do you mean on the DP (why do I write about not voting?)? I say what I want....? Yes, I say what I want!!! I am a proud provocateur!

#3 Best question (thanks for asking). Understand that I'm summing up what would arguably be a very long conversation, okay?

---1st You would need 1,000 (no higher than 10,000) "voters" in the fields of Engineering, Accountancy, Bid Contract Analysis, Naval Strategy, Incentive Plan Analysis, and Emergency Planning. These can be professionals or academics.

---2nd This group would not all vote (per election) a random generator would assign some to vote and some to analyse during the administration and after (to tally the "teams" incentives and pay them).

---3rd The "teams" (1 National Naval Meritocracy, 50 State Air-Army Guard Meritocracies, 1 National "GAO" Meritocracy, 50 State Disaster Meritocracies) would only get ONE TERM in office and are paid as a percentage of their remaining budget (what's left-over) and based on a rubric created by the "voters" that properly assesses innovation, strategy, cost-benefit analysis, and efficient use of resources.

The "rubric" -- The "voting" -- The afterward "analysis" -- All "team" decisions -- Everyone's "budget" are all open-source and in full-view of the American people (the world).

I created a tax-code that could fit on the back of a post-card and the "new" constitution (outlining and limiting the "team's" domain of governance) on the other side.

Simple

Never underestimate the power

Never underestimate the power of the grassroots.

I Do Not Underestimate

...the power of the grassroots. I thought a lot about Octoboxes #1.
"he could not have won" ...because he lost is a strange way of putting it; however, I "choose" whether Octobox mean this or not to believe that he was not going to be allowed to be heard under any circumstances. He was going to be silenced one way or another because he was trouble to the power structure.

Both the title of the article and #1 stopped most people from reading on...and thinking about it.

#2 Is true, because people right now (even supposedly educated people) choose "not" to think or else they are not capable of thinking they are so media brain-washed. The reasons I have heard "on the street" from both Romney and O'Bama voters are superficial like Octobox said.
They are like zombies...not wanting to face the realities we are faced with.

Bring up even the insanity of printing money and throwing it at global companies eyes glaze over. Almost makes you understand why a small group of elitists believe that the poopulace is not capable of making educated decisions. That is their power. That is the reason that it goes beyond waking up the people...education and some jolt that stimulates critical thinking is necessary.

How does that happen? Don't get me wrong. I am an optimist. I come from the place that it has to happen. I am not folding. I am saying...how? How does that happen?

One way is that we start thinking outside the box. Listen to people who are. Work together.

fonta

Theres no perfect form of

Theres no perfect form of government because government is dependent on humans willingly not abusing power. Government was said to be a 'necessary evil' by the Founding Fathers, even with all the momentum, there were some who still believed that some form of the Federal State was needed. This, the smallest microcosm of a form of government has now grown into the largest, most technologically advanced government the world has seen. There has never been a perfect form of government, there have been theories that are backed by logic of what a "perfect government" is in 'their eyes... but it is mere theory and subjective.

I truly believe that if the game was not rigged, and Ron Paul got a fair share in the media... he would've have a damn good chance of winning. He already was in the lead (won??) Iowa, 2nd in New Hampshire, 2nd (won??) in Maine, etc. If there wasn't a corporate, government, military industrial complex backed resistance to the RP movement, the votes were counted as recorded, the polls and media reflected the will of the people and not the powers that back them, he could've won. Unfortunately, they're not and he was screwed...

He's had such an impact and more people take his message seriously now because its relevant to our times, in due time... he's already won in my eyes.

Their motto is "Dont Tread On Me"...

Yes, He Won In My Eyes Also

...in that what he accomplished is unprecedented. He dared to say what no one else dared to say. It resonated. Started a movement. The question is what will we do with it. We aren't off to a great start but that can change. It is the message.

...and I believe Octobox pretty much said that in #3. Yes, he talked waaaay over peoples' heads and yet somehow even those who did not ...could not..totally understand what from his years of study he was saying, they were mesmerized by the truth of it. Not mesmerized by silver tongued oratory skills because he did not have that. What he had and has is such a rare transferable power of truth that it reached people no matter what their IQ or information background. And there are other clues. He was positive...he gave hope because he talked about what can be.

I agree with you that Gigantic Government ... the octopowerpus we allowed to develop...seems out of control and is, indeed, dependent upon humans allowing giving it power. Even begging for it.

The message is the only thing that has any chance of breaking the strangle-hold. What percentage would represent is critical mass? Wolfe said 10% and I've heard that before. But 10% of what. Those who vote. Those who could vote. We won't know until we try it.

And I DO believe there is a perfect form of government. It isn't in textbooks because it hasn't happened yet. It won't happen in my lifetime, but movement in the right direction requires liberty and peace and mutual respect.

fonta

Though I agree with much of what the OP says...

...it doesn't follow that RP *couldn't* have won. The OP lists several significant obstacles, yet there is no reason to suppose it would have been *impossible* to overcome them: difficult, yes, but not impossible.

IMO, had RP won the nomination, he would have easily won the general election. For some of the reasons the OP cites, the masses of GOPers would have voted for *anyone* with an (R) next to his name, including RP. In other words, RP would have had Romney's base. But, in addition, RP would have had us, which Romney didn't, and would have drawn many more independents and Dems than Romney did.

A general point: don't forget how MASSIVE a prize the nomination is. It comes with literally billions of dollars worth of free advertizing (in the form of several hours per day of media coverage for months), and the automatic loyalty of tens of millions of sheep.

...and remember how close RP actually came to winning the nomination. RP nearly won IA, with liberty-friendly NH up next...what would have happened if he had? As all observers should have noticed, the primary was *all* about momentum. The only reason anyone could offer that Romney *should* win was that they were sure he *would* win.

It was a damn near run thing.

2016's gonna be even better. ;-)

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

I think your right on...

...how ignorant people really are. However, one will never really know how bad the cheating was. Also, did you catch all the pics from all over the country of the Ron Paul rallies? Thousands upon thousands! Yes, he could have won. If he did, he would have needed more protection than any other president has ever had!

I Believe There Is

...a perfect form of government; however, we have not evolved enough to imagine it.

What Octobox says is a hard pill to swallow. In fact, nobody did swallow. Nobody even wanted to ask questions. This was a very unpopular post.

I think it is a shame, because a lot of what he said was/is true.

I wish some of us had asked questions instead of feeling repelled by hearing things we didn't want to hear.

It isn't often you encounter an Octobox and I feel it is a missed opportunity to dismiss him as irrelevant simply because he jolts our comfort zone. He is a teacher and very relevant given more of the same is only going to propel the spiral downward. People who present long-held and totally new to most of us concepts are a treat...worth listening to and questioning, even if you disagree.

Octobox has a habit of popping in from time to time. Hope he continues to do so. Might want to wipe preconceptions and read this post again. I promise it will, minimally, stimulate some pondering. May not make you go "aha"...but it may make you go "hmmm..." We need to develop that capacity. At least I do.

fonta

Well said ((((((((((fonta))))))))))

completely agree!

You are wrong

1) 12,000,000 Less Republicans voted this election than in the past. Why? They are true conservatives that did not like moderate Mitt being their party's nominee so they stayed home.

2) Some that voted for Obama were actually Ron Paul supporters that didn't want war-mongering Mitt, so they chose what they thought was the lesser of the two evils.

3) That 1% that voted for Gary Johnson surely would've voted for Paul instead (myself included), were he the nominee. I have no doubt that Gary would have stepped down, were this the case.

Mitt was a PLACE HOLDER so Dr. Paul could not get the nomination fair & square. HE is the one that NEVER had a shot in hell, thus why he was the chosen one from the very beginning. RP did win the nomination but was cheated out of it. In my precinct where the caucus was done in a fair & open manner, Paul supporters got every single delegate slot. C'mon - do you really think Mitt got 70% of the primary vote in Paul's congressional district? He cheated!! It is so obvious...Even my Dad who lives in the critical state of Iowa & has been a hard core Republican his whole life started to send me articles about RP when he saw how much I admired him. I think most of the older people are excited to see the younger generation involved & were just as hurt by the actions of the GOP at the convention this year. He did win if his goal was to demonstrate to the youth the corruption permeating the political system in America & get them fired up (which I think was always his real mission, he knew what he was up against). I am on my 3rd Ron Paul book, will never read anything written by Mittens. So who is the real winner?? Paulbots are the future, so get on board or get out of the way.

1% (assuming 100% of all RPers would support secession)

is not enough to get secession-discussion on a national (and taken seriously) debate.

The conversation that is taking place now is media-fodder -- it is the goal of those who support fringe-discussion to what? create a free-market from controversial logic? to gain look weally weally 'telligent?

If RP comes out and encourages secession -- openly and not talking "around" the topic -- then I will come out 100% for it.

Secession Talk is not Rational Talk.

A free-market is maintained by POS-rule -- My argument is that's also the way we get into a free-market.

Others think that voting (abdication of POS-rul) and lobbying (bribery) and sensationalism (911-Truth, Birther, and now Secession Talk) are the more viable modalities.

metalhed19's picture

Friggin sweet post man, what

Friggin sweet post man, what RP books are you reading? I have End the Fed, Liberty Defined, A Foreign Policy of Freedom,Revolution a Manifesto and the Gold Commission Report.

*Wisconsin Constitution* Article I, Section 25 "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security,defense,hunting,recreation or any other law-abiding purpose"

Right now reading

The Revolution. Just finished readin End the Fed & Liberty Defined before that. Another good book for the liberty-minded I just read was Lies the Government Told You by Judge Napolitano. I'll have to check out those other ones you mentioned. I've also been writing some poetry inspired by Ron Paul for the movement & posted a couple on here...Thank you for your comment! Cheers to The Revolution :)

Maybe you missed the memo.

Ron Paul did win. Only the sore losers are crying over Mitt. In weeks he will all but be forgotten.

The incumbent retains control of a government of no authority.

The very definition of government is elitism for the few at the expense of the many

If you want to disenfranchise the elite, then get rid of government.

Free includes debt-free!

I didn't get the "memo" -- "winning" means "in office"

It does not mean "good job" it does not mean "got the message out there" it means "in office"

Even if the GOP "stole" the election (we are nowhere near proving that by-the-by) it doesn't matter -- because you cannot change a country wherein 80% of the voters want "some version" of protectionism (whether it be against foreign marauders, disease, crises, disaster, or failure).

Ron Paul did not get 47% (or whatever Romney got) he got maybe 2 to 10% of the total vote (during the primaries -- which was a lower turnout then in 2008) -- 2-10% BECAUSE most people do not show up to the primaries to vote they wait for the general election.

If voting and lobbying is truly ineffective what is winning?

So many are not buying their crap anymore. In the free market of ideas, the consumer prevails.

You were right. We couldn't defeat their bad ideas unless we marketed better ideas. Then let the consumer decide.

Lobbying and voting to get my way is ineffective.

Crossing the Chasm by Geoffrey Moore. We are the first adopters and the early adopters. The Whitewash and Blackout of the MSM was all about stopping us from crossing the chasm.

Luckily, Market rules trump political lobbying such as advertising and other propaganda.

Free includes debt-free!