98 votes

We Need to be Careful...

Let me set this up really quick. I come from a long line of libertarians. My Dad voted Ron Paul back 1988, and I have uncles who are in the same boat. This election season I campaigned for Ron Paul, I donated, I bough t-shirts and bumper stickers and I shared the word with a lot of people. Two of those people who voted straight libertarian ticket this time around!

I am 28 and working on my masters. After High School I worked for three years to save money for college. Then, every semester I applied for dozens of scholarships, sometimes I got some, sometimes I did not, but I applied. I worked two jobs during the summers to pay for classes. Anyone who has a double major and a masters knows this is an expensive endevor. My education cost me $50,000, $10,000 of which I borrowed from the government. I have already paid $5,000 of that back, and have saved another $1,000 for when my first bill comes around soon.

The other day I was walking home from school and I was wearing one of my many Ron Paul shirts. A guy parked his car and had a Ron Paul bumper sticker, so we of course make eye contact and start chatting. We got on the issue of student loans, anad I told him I had taken some out and he freaked out and started telling me I do not understand the message of libertarianism.

Luckily, I believe so much in this message that I do not care what he says, however, this is a great way to scare away any new comers.

I think we need to understand that we might not all see eye to eye on everything, but that is OK.

We need to not act competitive over who is a better libertarian.

When ex Dems or Repubs come our way lets not yell at them and tell them how stupid their party was or call them names, lets embrace them. This is why the GOP is dying, and we cannot go down that route.

Lets leave the fear mongering to fox news and MSNBC and lets speak the truth.

Finally, let's not assume we know more than the other person about something. We can talk about ideas or opinions, but very few of us are experts in anything.

Originally posted 2012-11-10 23:11:58 -0500

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focus on similarities and

focus on similarities and relationships. and remember you are in a SYSTEM and you need to WORK THE SYSTEM. ie there is inflation. so get a car loan at 0% and pay that loan off in a few years. WHO CARES.

All the saving rhetoric was under the gold standard when there was no inflation!

Why "save" for purchases if inflation is at 5%?!?!?!

You have to have osme fun in life too. Have a balance in things. It's a paper money system. Save in terms of land, and income producing properties, etc. but also have some fun.

A "good Libertarian"..

tries to get money back 99% on all opportunities given..

It's not easy.

We are forced to pay, so never ever feel bad about doing your best to get it back.


I try to change people every day. Do You?

The system is set up to

The system is set up to almost make you go on student loans. It is impossible for most to be purists in practice. If we truly got rid of government funded student loans, then the price for tuition would rapidly drop. Till then, you do what you have to do.

No it's not.. It's actually very easy in many cases.

I'd refuse to go to school, take out a personal loan or go to a much smaller school where I could make payment plans while I worked a job.

If you really want to do something, it will become your priority. Your actions will show just where a persons priorities are.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Actually, you are better off

Actually, you are better off going to a well endowed private school where you will receive good scholarships and grants. I started off in a community college and then transferred my credits into a wealthy private college. If you excel at the community college while taking your basic requirements for the wealthy private college, then when you transfer they will throw money at you that you don't have to pay back. You can get nearly all of your education financed through the school itself in the form of scholarships and grants.

As my advisor in community college said to me, "You can't afford a cheap school." She was right. You want a private college with big endowments because if you have good grades then they will fund you nearly 100%.

Blessings )o(

That is good, rare advice right there.

I went to a 'top' 50 liberal arts college and 75% of my tuition was scholarship (I was a good student, but rejected by Ivy League).

Room and board was expensive, but it came out to be cheaper than a State university with no scholarship. Maeve I've never heard anyone give that advice to someone- I like it.

Student Loans... only market option

Anyone who gives you a hard time about taking a student loan is just a purist who hasn't thought through the full implications of what he is saying.

Unless they are so purist that they decided not to purchase a home on a mortgage, because the inflation rate isn't necessarily the right one for the market. Basically if they have ever financed anything they are lying to themselves.

You mentioned he had a car, which means he's willing to buy gasoline at manipulated prices, even though he's libertarian. In fact, you could say that he is pro-violence, for using oil that might have come from countries that have been unjustly "influenced" by America's foreign policies.

And, supposing you went to a bank and asked to take out a loan for college, they'd tell you to get lost, and to apply for student loans.

Just because free markets are the most efficient way to run the economy doesn't mean that people who understand that are somehow expected to live outside of the existing (distorted) market system. It would be impossible to do so. Especially considering the distorted cost of the education system because of the existence of Student Loans.

Don't let him get you down. Just make sure and be honest, pay back your loans, and live each day as a man of principle. Do your best to help direct the world toward what you know is a better way, but do what you can to live honorably within the system the way it is.

I'm just say'n its one thing to believe in the basic concepts of liberty, and to support those ideals that will lead us back to greater liberty. Its another thing to completely separate yourself from society, in order to stay pure in your libertarianism.

Oh I'm just a naughty purist who happens to have a higher bar

than perhaps you do.. It's so gross.. Look becky.. Look he's a purist.

Oh my god
Becky, look that purist
He's so bad
He looks like one of those NAP girls boyfriends
Who understands those NAP guys
They only talk to him because he talks like a total purist
I mean his bar
It's just so high
I can't believe it's so high
It's just out there
I mean, it's gross
Look, he's he thinks he's just so that..

Look, you guys want less Liberty, have at it. Don't cry about it when you continue to get fucked because you chose to lie to yourself, except less in a candidate and except less Liberty.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

No-one is a purist

I never said he should expect less from any candidate. Nor did I say purists were not perfectly allowed to choose not to get student loans.

I did point out how hypocritical it is for anyone to assume they can live in America today without interacting with distorted markets, and dealing with government programs, much less look down on someone else for living within the system we are surrounded by.

Hate the system all you want, but you are buying gas and groceries and any number of other things within a non-free market. And as such, you are contributing to the problem, Just as the author of this article is "contributing" to the problems created by student loans.

I just don't think its anyone's right to belittle another person for doing the best the can with what they have, as tho the person doing the belittling is somehow capable of living entirely outside of the system.

And, if student loans are so bad, this brother in liberty might have gotten further by pointing out why, and offering ideas about how to avoid the problem. Knowledge is powerful and persuasive, ridicule doesn't create liberty.

The thing that makes me a purist and proud of it

is when I figure out that I'm part of the problem I try to rectify it. If I can.. when it's WITHIN MY POWER TO DO SO.

Not yelling.. :)

I can totally understand, if a person REALLY doesn't have another option. Take FRN's for example.. As far as I know.. I have no other choice that would allow me to get away from FRN's altogether. Is it hypocritical? Yes, it is. I make no excuses for it nor do I lie when asked.

until I find another way, I'm stuck with the systems money. I try different routes whenever I can but no way to get entirely off of it yet.

Loans are a different thing though.. You have multiple options. They may not be what you want, the easy route, which is what I think most people gravitate towards and excuse later.

As for the term "purist".. Well I just get a little tired of people putting that word up against terms like realists as if we are in some dreamland and that somehow the self-appointed "realists" are grounded in the best thought..

Just isn't true. If anything I find purist to be very grounded in reality. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty damn good at problem solving in the real world on many things including problem solving when my ideology needs a real world application fix..

"Hate the system all you want, but you are buying gas and groceries and any number of other things within a non-free market. And as such, you are contributing to the problem, Just as the author of this article is "contributing" to the problems created by student loans."

I think you'd be hard pressed to find many things that I am not finding alternatives to that match my ideological stances. Especially ones I have the power to change.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

That's reasonable

I've actually been thinking a lot about what I believe (or don't believe) on a political / social scale, ever since you called me a NeoCon a week or so back.

After reading the various essays on mises.org, especially the one about private law. I've come to the conclusion that I'm not a libertarian at all. It doesn't make me a NeoCon. But I'm not even attempting to be a true libertarian. However, I do support Dr Paul (both with my vote and my wallet).

If anything I'm a constitutionalist more-so than a libertarian.
And although I believe that the Austrian school is the only theory of economics that correctly explains what is going on around us, and why the current plague of economic thinking is failing so badly, that doesn't mean I think its infallible. And I don't think it necessarily applies to other aspects of humanity as well as it does the economy. The essay on private law as an example, its interesting, it even has some merit, but I can't talk myself into believing it is a better system than what Americans a couple of centuries ago ratified into the supreme law of the land.

But I don't think I need to accept pure libertarianism (strict anarcho-capitalism) any more than you need to accept constitutionalism (minarchism) in order to recognize, that in today's political marketplace, we are allies, not enemies.

The impression that I got when you called me out for being a big government socialist was, that if I wasn't a purist, I wasn't welcome here. Which is the same statement that was made within this article. There is no reason to turn away allies simply because the north on my moral compass is a few degrees different from the north on yours.

By all means, share your philosophy, and debate with me about things we disagree on, that's healthy and productive. But keep in mind that we have many common goals even if we don't have 100% overlap.

you have views but it does

you have views but it does not MAKE you this or that. the media is designed to try to turn people against one another. focus on what make people similar.

I'm many things.. small L libertarian

Constitutionalists.. Staunch Constitutional Conservative.. Classical Liberal.
You name it with real Liberty and I just might fit. :) By the way.. "libertarian" is a catchall for a great many things to me. It's first recorded use I believe was by William Beshlam in 1789.


Hell I could even be a big "L" libertarian too if they got their crap together enough to put up a real Libertarian.

This isn't my site but people that promote socialism or excuse it need to be called out, in my opinion. Hell I don't even remember calling you that.. it must have been one of those in the moment judgements on what you were pushing. Oh maybe it was the idea of Rand excusing?

Socialism or excusing language in defense of candidates or positions is bad business though and one of my pet peeves.

I've had a discussion with the guy who wrote the thread and he seems pretty down to earth and he seems to understand where I'm coming from. Do I think he's not a libertarian? No, but if someone knows something is wrong and excuses it.. then they are wrong on that subject. I think ignoring the truth is un-libertarian.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

deacon's picture



Let it ever not be said,that I never did not do nothing for you.

Great message.

I have slowly learned to tone down my rants and respect the views of others.

Not only does it make them more receptive to your ideas but you can keep your sanity a little better.

Lord Acton, Lord Chief Justice of England, 1875 - "The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the People v. The Banks."

Don't sweat it

all debts will become non negotiable on 12/21/12.

There are no politicians or bankers in foxholes.

god i hate the word libertarianism

it's not even good verbiage.. founders would have never crafted that word and used on themselves.. the redundant syllable segment would make them sound retarded

I suppose I would too if it I didn't fit the definition

and wanted to remove the word from use.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

I got told I wasn't a real libertarian on here the other day.

My response I don't need a label. Besides I'm more along the lines of Bastiat than a NAP absolutist.

jrd3820's picture


It really does not slide off the tongue easily does it?

Just say ancap:D

Just say ancap:D

god i hate the word libertarianism

it's not even good verbiage.. too many syllable segments. the founders would have never used it

henry9's picture

No two snowflakes are alike...

but remarkably similar.

At least you got another libertarrian

Up here I'm stuck with phony conservatives while we fight off a horde of government loving liberals.

I see this as a small part of a larger picture

Thanks to the internet, for the first time in world history we are communicating to a degree unlike nothing humans have experienced before.

Without getting in too deep for a comment...

Information is flowing like crazy and we're all scrambling to make heads or tails of it, formulating opinions based on our own life experiences and sending it back out there for scrutiny.

This places envy and intolerance squarely at center stage, what Ron Paul described in his farewell speech as "two powerful human emotions [that] have to be overcome" in order "to achieve liberty and peace".

It is my firm belief that the world is heading in that direction. However this is not without causing an acceleration of many battles being fought across the globe in both small (such as this) and large scale.

I realize this isn't exactly what you were getting at, nor am I claiming the internet is to blame for this exchange. I just thought it was a good opportunity to share my thoughts on what I believe is a world on track for realizing a level of liberty and peace now possible.


If men are good, you don't need government; if men are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have one.

Its challenging to not be

Its challenging to not be frustrated sometimes when you have the ability to see tyranny all around you. From stop lights to stupid people having an equal vote. He was probably having an episode of frustration lol.

I Once Talked To A Ron Paul Supporter...

...who tried telling me that there is too much election fraud and that going to electric voting machines would solve it...a little confused but I didn't argue with him :)

We need to get an early start on 2016: Support Rand PAC 2016





there are people in every 'camp'--

in every race, religion, ethnic group, nation, political party--

who are extreme. There is a certain kind of personality that draws itself to trouble in every possible grouping of human being--

You just met one.

The person below who speaks of idealism versus realism is correct, but some people are just obnoxious.

It is possible to seek to know the truth, find the truth and be kind to other human beings; that is one of the reasons many of us admire Dr. Paul--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

jrd3820's picture

Be kind to other human beings

as you said is my point. You are right, I met ONE single person, what worried me is that he was on a campus talking like this, and I have been on a lot of campuses in the past three years and students are talking about Ron Paul. Most of them probably have some debt, so what if that one tells them all to forget it because they are not "true libertarians"? That would just be crappy!