98 votes

We Need to be Careful...

Let me set this up really quick. I come from a long line of libertarians. My Dad voted Ron Paul back 1988, and I have uncles who are in the same boat. This election season I campaigned for Ron Paul, I donated, I bough t-shirts and bumper stickers and I shared the word with a lot of people. Two of those people who voted straight libertarian ticket this time around!

I am 28 and working on my masters. After High School I worked for three years to save money for college. Then, every semester I applied for dozens of scholarships, sometimes I got some, sometimes I did not, but I applied. I worked two jobs during the summers to pay for classes. Anyone who has a double major and a masters knows this is an expensive endevor. My education cost me $50,000, $10,000 of which I borrowed from the government. I have already paid $5,000 of that back, and have saved another $1,000 for when my first bill comes around soon.

The other day I was walking home from school and I was wearing one of my many Ron Paul shirts. A guy parked his car and had a Ron Paul bumper sticker, so we of course make eye contact and start chatting. We got on the issue of student loans, anad I told him I had taken some out and he freaked out and started telling me I do not understand the message of libertarianism.

Luckily, I believe so much in this message that I do not care what he says, however, this is a great way to scare away any new comers.

I think we need to understand that we might not all see eye to eye on everything, but that is OK.

We need to not act competitive over who is a better libertarian.

When ex Dems or Repubs come our way lets not yell at them and tell them how stupid their party was or call them names, lets embrace them. This is why the GOP is dying, and we cannot go down that route.

Lets leave the fear mongering to fox news and MSNBC and lets speak the truth.

Finally, let's not assume we know more than the other person about something. We can talk about ideas or opinions, but very few of us are experts in anything.

Originally posted 2012-11-10 23:11:58 -0500



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This comes down to the

This comes down to the arguement between the idealist and the realist. I know I dont need to explain out what each is.
In the world today, being an idealist is increasingly difficult to almost impossible in some cases.

I also took out student loans. I now have a job as an engineer. Assuming my course holds, I will have them paid off in the next year or two tops. This was the only course of action to me.
The one good thing here is that my debt is less than the average. I didnt rack up $50-100k of student loans, or even $30k for that matter. I lived at home and didnt spend money on everything I wanted. The computer I have now and are typing on is the same one I got at the start of college and still works for what I need it for. I didnt buy an expensive car, but I am lucky that my parents could help out in this regard.

Had I not gotten those loans, what would have happened? Well I probably wouldnt have the job I have now or I would have alot more debt and a credit rating in the drain, which means I still likely wouldnt have a job as I do now.(credit rating checks for getting a job? f-you banking system!)
The one thing I can say though is that if I knew then what I know now, I would have gone to a trade school and gotten a job that way. So in this case it would be more a lack of knowledge on my part. Although, I dont find this to be completely unexpected since I was making the decision to go to college back in high school and didnt know as much then.

Eitherway, this comes down to lack of knowledge on what a person can do, and the rock and the hard place that is the modern career and educational field.

To climb the mountain, you must believe you can.

If there were no government

If there were no government student loans, the price of education would need to fall to meet the needs of students, or educational 'institutions' would fail. It is also possible that industry coalitions would be created to sponsor funding for students. Without workers, there is no industry. It is in their self-interest now to push for greater availability of taxpayer funded student loans because that is how things currently work. Industry requests, government taxes. When the government no longer runs that way, alternatives will be created.

I'm on your side as far as the loans go

I mean - does that guy pay taxes? Those taxes are a form of wealth redistribution plus they fund the MIC and our empire. It's impossible not to "play along" in many aspects of life.

And even in an ideal libertarian society, student loans would exist. They just would be made in the private sector to credit-worthy risks (which would likely be college majors for skills in high demand).

How we'd like the system

And how the system actually is are two different things. I assume everyone is paying taxes, so are some of you people saying that you should pay taxes in and let them give it to bankers and defense contractors, etc. and not get any benefits from it? Ron Paul gets accused of being a "porker" because he earmarks spending bills to get money for his district. He votes against the bills, because he is against spending bills that spend more money than we have, but they pass anyway. So his philosophy is that if they are going to spend his constituents money, he is going to get them some benefit from it. I see that as no different than someone taking a Pell Grant or student loan, etc. The alternative is paying taxes in and letting the government give it away to whoever they decide.

sharkhearted's picture

WELL SAID!

Hear, hear!

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Time to INVESTIGATE the investigators of 9/11. PROSECUTE the prosecutors. EXPOSE the cover-up.

+ 1

Good posts deserve bumps.
Thanks.

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Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Chances are, he nailed you correctly.

Do you know for sure that the money came from strictly private sources? Most government loans come from subsidized companies or straight from government coffers. Either way, the gov has their hand it it.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

jrd3820's picture

About 10%

Of it did come from government subsidies, a ton of it was private scholarships and a lot of it was simply my own money I saved from working. So, maybe he nailed me correctly in the idea that I should have found that 10% elsewhere (I am not a trust fund baby though), but I did look elsewhere as much as I possibly could.

I can give you that he made a little sense on one part of his argument, but now that he has labeled me "not libertarian enough," should I jump ship and vote for the republicans or democrats next time around? Or should we accept that some people in this group are going to every now and then have to do something that is "un-libertarian" and let it be without puffing our chests out and making a hug deal over who is "the better libertarian?"

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

Actually, since you were smart enough to keep your lifestyle and

loans on the minimal side, you could have just as well gone through a smaller vocational school and paid by the semester? That's what people do who want to do it themselves without the financing, no?

"should I jump ship and vote for the republicans or democrats next time around?"

What's done is done but don't put it on the other guy for pointing out. Maybe when someone does that to you it's less about them saying they are a better "libertarian" and more about you getting your feelers hurt because you know he was right and just hated hearing it.

As for jumping ship, no.. Just learn from your mistake and try to correct it. That's the idea of learning this stuff no? Many of you were liberals and neocons before you came this way.. I'm hoping you see the error of your ways and are trying to change, otherwise, what are you doing here. If you refuse to change, then you are an enabler, not a revolutionary.

And the other thing you should ask yourself.. is the low interest that you got, really fair market? Do we all deserve to go to college? Is it really worth the money and the imposition on the American taxpayer? Even if we do pay taxes.. that money goes to FED interests.. Does that really give us the right to take some back when we are feeding the fire? Many more moral libertarian question need to be asked I'm sure as well and you have to decide what the truth is, not what you want it to be.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

jrd3820's picture

My feelings were hardly hurt

What I was concerned about is what I have said numerous times in this thread. College campuses are where the action is. There are some serious libertarians out there who do not even realize what they are saying is libertarian. Do we tell them that they might as well forget it because they are not libertarian if they took some loans?

What should I be trying to change? I have less debt than anyone else I know. So, a tiny portion came from the government. I have already paid the vast majority of it back. A very very tiny portion. So, yeah I could probably change a few things in my life, but those things have nothing to do with finance.

I went through a community college to begin with and paid by the semester there, and then I went to major university and paid by most semesters there with the exception of 2, and even those semesters I paid a lot of it myself, just needed a little help. So, yes, we all have things we can change, but this is not what I need to change.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

Okay..

"Do we tell them that they might as well forget it because they are not libertarian if they took some loans?"

No of course not but we should tell them the truth, unfortunately, people don't like hearing that when they are wrong. I have no idea how this guy approached you but trust me.. libertarians can be much harder on each other than the average person and I'm personally happy about that, especially when it comes from a place of truth.

As for what to change? I would say, your mind, if you thought what you did was okay.

I struggle with paying taxes. I know they are illegal but the alternative is going to jail. Do I go to jail over my principles? Well I just may in the coming years because I sure as hell won't pay them if it means my mother and family go without food. So instead of giving into the idea of either going to jail or paying taxes.. I came up with a third option. Live below the poverty line so I don't have to pay them.. If I can get there, I'll be able to still make money without having to pay an income tax or go to jail and still be able to help my family in the coming collapse. This will require that I sacrifice a lot of what I'm used to so that I can live a principled life.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

The GOP is not dying

And to make the GOP want to die is to not want to restore the republic, which is Ron Paul's mission with, "Campaign for Liberty".

What is interesting to me, is that it is the long time Libertarians who have gotten no where with the LP for decades.

The biggest growing voting group is No Party Preference, which means, they choose to have no representation, simply choosing what the other parties nominate for them. By all practical purposes, the GOP is the biggest third party and the Democratic Party is the establishment (the Neocons the gatekeepers fighting us to keep the Neo-corporate World Order cliff diving.

I think one reason Rand gets so much MSM is because of the old libertarians that joined the GOP for Ron Paul and continue fighting TO RESTORE THE REPUBLIC. Ron Paul remains a Republican.

So to me, what we have here on DP are those who joined the GOP, are with the C4L, RP program in the GOP and continuing the fight, and those who refuse to join the GOP, or did but got out, or got kicked out, or are waiting to see before they join because they think the LP, or a new party, or something besides taking the GOP is the solution to "Liberty".

Ron Paul has given us the truth, the path, the GOP.. let us dine.

Hey I'm in the same boat as you

I use federal grants and loans to pay for my college tuition. I fail to see how this is un-libertarian. Yes I'm against our government handing out loans to every single person in this country, but really what other choice do I have. They have a monopoly on the loan market, they're actions leave me with no other logical options. Sure I could go to a Credit Union and take out private loans with like 18% interest on them, but why when I can get loans with 5%-8% interest? I may be totally against it, but the reality is our government has a monopoly on the student loan market by guaranteeing higher education as an entitlement to everyone. I'd love for it to be a different way, for there to be real competition in this market, for it to be much harder than it is now to get loans (maybe it would even return the value to obtaining a college degree), but this simply isn't the way it is.

This guy's argument against you really is nothing more than a strawman. And I agree with you people need to be more embracive of other peoples views if they at all want to build bridges and try and establish connections with people. Not that you have to accept what someone may say, but don't be so critical. Also don't be to uncritical. As Aristotle or the Stoics would say, take the intermediate path, a balance between the two extremes.

Trust me, your justifications have done nothing

to help his post. A libertarian would have taken the 18% loan or figured out some way to do it without asking for the government to loan money.

Someone below stated that these so called government loans come from private companies but that's only true if that's where your particular loan came from.. they usually come from subsidized companies or straight from the government.

I know this may upset some of you but it IS unlibertarian of you.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

I'll make it simple. If a

I'll make it simple. If a gangster is holding you up for protection, and then later happens to come into your pub and "makes it rain", you may choose not to, but you are not morally wrong for picking up some benjy's.

But this is the evil of collectivism. The greatest moral hazard of socialism is that it undermines morality itself. The moral analysis I gave in paragraph 1 is valid. But over time people forget that is a particular case, and see all plunder as acceptable.

Let me make it simpler for you..

Wrong is wrong.. if it's not instinctual for you, then your moral compass is fucked, not mine. Taking government handouts is against libertarianism.. end of argument.. so anything trying to further the idea that it is okay in some way is by definition, a justification and wrong. If a person continues to do what is wrong, they have to deal with that moral dilemma, just don't lie to yourself and others by trying to make it seem anything other than what it is.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

No. The state steals. But the

No. The state steals. But the theft is such that it is impractical to return the stolen goods. So long as you never support the theft it is not intrinsically wrong to accept them.

For an act to be good it must actually do some good. It would be impossible but even if you could get say 20% of americans not to accept government money it would not change anything. The government would still take the money and just give it to other people and causes.

When evil is done, if it can be remediated it is good to do so. I can free a slave, return a lifted wallet, repatriate a kidnapped child to the family. Even if I can't do those things, I can't un murder or un rape someone but if I witness the act I can bring the assailant to justice.

But some evil cannot be remedied. I cannot repatriate the goods, nor put down the beast that plundered them.

Dr Walter Block of LVMI and Loyola addresses this very topic here

I'm convinced by his commentary. He attacks it from several angles.

See my previous post for a reply.

.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

jrd3820's picture

rp4pres

It does not necessarily upset me, however my justifications prove that I am way more conscious about my spending and borrowing than the average person. I have no other debt. None. I am 27 with a handful of degrees with no other debt. That is libertarian of me. So does it equal out? The fact that when I first registered for classes every semester the registrar shoved a piece of paper in front of me and told me "not to worry about scholarships or paying with cash and just take out loans" and I said "thanks but no thanks." The fact that when what should have cost me about $50,000 I only borrowed $10,000 on because I knew I could find a way to keep the government out of it.

No worries, I am not upset by your ideas or the guy I ran into on campus's ideas. I'm writing my thesis on Austrian Economics as found in dystopic literature, I understand the argument you are making. What I do not understand is the idea that he was better off than I as a libertarian because I do not for a second believe he (or most others here) does not have any government subsidized money. I do not buy it. So who is he to tell me what I am doing is wrong?

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

and you are to be commended on this

"It does not necessarily upset me, however my justifications prove that I am way more conscious about my spending and borrowing than the average person. I have no other debt. None. I am 27 with a handful of degrees with no other debt. That is libertarian of me."

"What I do not understand is the idea that he was better off than I as a libertarian"

Nothing I said or anyone I can see has said that he was better.. I was merely pointing out that he may have been correct and it sounds to me like you may have the issue with competitiveness, not him. You may be self-conscious about it more than he was.

"So does it equal out?"

Does it equal out? It's not about that.. It's about whether that particular action was libertarian or not and the truth is, it was not.

The fact though that you've done the things above doesn't negate the things you do now.

I probably do things that aren't libertarian too but I don't excuse them, they just are, if they are and I can't change them.. I do change what I can however when I see.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

jrd3820's picture

Ok

So, nothing you said points out that he was better. That is correct, that is very much the statement he was making, he was in my face nearly yelling and telling me about how Ron Paul would disagree. So, what I am saying, is as a group we could probably stop judging others a little because we are all here together.

ps, I am not downvoting you, I am enjoying this conversation. I still disagree on a few things though.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

I didn't think you were.. You have come across as pretty level

headed during our conversation.

Sure, even though he may have been correct, he didn't have to be an ass about it.

I will say though, even if we are all together here, we aren't really "All together here".

For me, libertarianism means also, what will I sacrifice for my principles. I don't expect to be perfect in my ideological practice, but I do shoot for it. The goal to me is to get to a level of it that I am somewhat comfortable with it, for some, that may be to a degree they see as extremist.. I just see it as what Dr.Paul would do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6-i0S7LEL0

Remember this?

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

jrd3820's picture

Lol

Oh... I forgot about that clip.... Anyways, I get it, I understand what you are saying. I just see so many college students discussing libertarian ideas and some of them do not even realize it. So, when they do realize it I just do not want people to scare them away! This has been quite a pleasant conversation rp4pres, good luck getting your economic footprint down far enough to not have to pay so much in taxes.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

I've enjoyed this conversation also.

Thanks. I hope to be there in about a year so that will be one more off of my checklist. :)

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

sure it may be counter

the principles of laissez faire capitalism by not putting my dollars elsewhere, but I'm not going to voluntarily pay astronomically higher loans for myself. I have other things I'd much rather do with the very little money I have. Sadly at this point in time I don't think there are even enough people who could make a difference by choosing private loans over federal ones. How are you going to convince enough people to pay more for something that they can get much cheaper to make a meaningful enough impact for things to change?

Hell the greater % of every product in this country can be traced back to either monopolies or oligopolies. While I search and do my best to avoid giving in to many of them and try and support more independent companies/ firms/ whatever, it's sort of unavoidable (unless of course you live out in the sticks, and are 100% self-sufficient). By this measurement wouldn't paying taxes be unlibertarian as well? (especially property, and income taxes), I don't see how people can go about their lives without some conflict sometimes. Like you said in another post: "either way the government has a hand in it", can't this be said of just about everything. I'm not upset if you still find it unlibertarian of me, maybe this is the first real issue that has me in conflict with a pure libertarian philosophy.

I don't mind people doing things they absolutely can't live

without doing. People who have options though, is my issue. Not those who FEEL they have no other choice but those who actually don't.

Paying taxes are held up by force.. you either go to jail or you pay. Some refuse to pay in various ways. I for one am trying to get my economic footprint so small that I am not required to pay them. I'm actively working on that so it's not just talk.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

yes, people have options

In this case, of student loans, there are very few options (logical ones at that). It still serves me best to choose the option that will provide me with the least amount of debt. While I would totally jump on board another option if there was one that was close enough, there simply isn't that option. The difference is paying over 4-5 (if not higher) times the amount that I'd be paying if I chose otherwise. If you we're at the grocery store and there was a brand of a loaf of bread which cost $2, and every other brand was priced around $12-$20, do you mean to tell me your going to choose one of the more expensive brands simply if it means that it's not controlled or less controlled by Government forces? Which is the wiser decision? To be burdened down with unreasonable debt, or to make my situation as manageable as possible?

Maybe Taxes weren't the greatest analogy because yes they are held up by force. Can't come up with another one off the top of my head, but anyways I commend your efforts to get around evading them. I too would love to do the same, but I feel I couldn't afford going to trial if they wanted to persecute me for that. I have neither the time, nor money. I really would like to learn more on that though, "The Law that Never Was" seems like an interesting read.

ytc's picture

Reminds me of the time-honored biblical admonishment

to be IN the world, but not OF the world :-) We can receive everything in the world as GIFT, while not obsessing to get - and be in CONTROL of - more of anything & everything. . . esp other people's lives, resources & sovereignty.

Thanks for your gift of a wise advice, jrd3820!

he sounds like the type who

he sounds like the type who will write-in ron paul for every election from here on out.

Excellent.

Holding "libertarian values" does not mean that one can live up to every ideal. We have an utterly corrupt society that we have to try to survive in. I am perhaps the worst "libertarian" ever, as I wish every American would go down and get on every entitlement they can qualify for. Why? So they could take every FRN they get and buy silver with it.
I am sick to death of hearing people complain about "entitlements" and blaming the recipients. If the governments managed the tax money efficiently, we could provide a "safety net" that did not burden the working people. The "parasites" are not the recipients who barely get enough to feed themselves, the parasites are the bureaucrats sucking millions off the top.
The other thing folks don't get is that many people LEARNED libertarian values after they were up to their eyeballs in "the dream." I don't think anyone learned about liberty in school, all we get told is we HAVE to go to college or we are failures.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.