132 votes

15 (now all 50) states start petitions to secede from the US

Warning :- There are duplicate petitions for at least Missouri, Georgia, Ohio, SC, Utah, New York, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Virginia (if you are going to vote, it is probably best to sign the one with the higher number of existing signatures - or sign both).
If you have already voted please check which petition for these states you have voted on.

As of 12:46 am, Sunday, signatures obtained by Louisiana 7,358; Texas 3,771; Florida 636; Georgia 475; Alabama 834; North Carolina 792; Kentucky 467; Mississippi 475; Indiana 449; North Dakota 162; Montana 440; Colorado 324; Oregon 328; New Jersey 301 and New York 169. Many more States are expected to follow.

http://www.examiner.com/article/15-states-including-texas-ha...

This is the website for the petitions (via Sally_Oh)
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions

The Texas petition reads as follows:

The US continues to suffer economic difficulties stemming from the federal government’s neglect to reform domestic and foreign spending. The citizens of the US suffer from blatant abuses of their rights such as the NDAA, the TSA, etc. Given that the state of Texas maintains a balanced budget and is the 15th largest economy in the world, it is practically feasible for Texas to withdraw from the union, and to do so would protect it’s citizens’ standard of living and re-secure their rights and liberties in accordance with the original ideas and beliefs of our founding fathers which are no longer being reflected by the federal government.

Updated petition numbers as at 04:00 am Thursday.
Louisiana 34,769; Texas 106,325; Florida 31,604; Georgia 29,529; Alabama 28,252; North Carolina 27,877; Kentucky 17,131; Mississippi 16,834; Indiana 19,086; North Dakota 10,699; Montana 12,379; Colorado 19,964; Oregon 13,622; New Jersey 13,043 and New York, 13,921

Arkansas 20,957; South Carolina 21,841; Missouri 18,049; Tennessee 28,565; Michigan 17,867; Oklahoma 16,582

Added Monday :-
Alaska 7,033; Arizona 20,614; California 12,896; Delaware 6,962; Kansas 7,493; Nevada 9,378; Ohio 10,342; Pennsylvania 12,053; Utah 6,407;, West Virginia 6,694; Wisconsin 5,737; Wyoming 8,026;

Added Tuesday :-
Idaho 5,076; Illinois 4,264; Iowa 3,612; Maine 3,085; Minnesota 4,356; New Hampshire 4,583; Nebraska 6,302; Rhode Island 3,883; South Dakota 5,670; Virginia 7,244; Washington 3,251

Added Wednesday :-
Connecticut 2,036; Hawaii 2,723; Maryland 2,204; Massachusetts 2,690; New Mexico 3,995; Vermont ;

Total 50 states (+7).
Total votes 697,505 (+104,948)

Related Petitions
Peacefully allow ALL states that have asked to secede to do so and form their own NEW nation together 10,805

District of Colombia
Withdraw the District of Colombia so that the Several States might live in peace and prosperity 67.

Updated petition numbers as at 04:00 am Wednesday.
Louisiana 32,511; Texas 93,880; Florida 28,089; Georgia 26,646; Alabama 25,931; North Carolina 25,116; Kentucky 15,289; Mississippi 15,075; Indiana 16,642; North Dakota 9,963; Montana 11,351; Colorado 17,833; Oregon 12,406; New Jersey 11,773 and New York, 12,775

Arkansas 18,617; South Carolina 19,314; Missouri 15,874; Tennessee 25,735; Michigan 15,853; Oklahoma 14,878

Added Monday :-
Alaska 6,019; Arizona 17,326; California 9,960; Delaware 6,232; Kansas 6,055; Nevada 8,206; Ohio 8,606; Pennsylvania 10,306; Utah 6,407;, West Virginia 5,254; Wisconsin 3,952; Wyoming 6,788;

Added Tuesday :-
Idaho 3,428; Illinois 2,945; Iowa 713; Maine 880; Minnesota 2,605; New Hampshire 3,181; Nebraska 5,091; Rhode Island 2,836; South Dakota 4,597; Virginia 5,300; Washington 319

There are 2 petitions for Illinois & 3 for Virginia.
(I am only counting the petition with the highest number of votes, where a duplicate exists.)

Total 43 states (+11).
Total votes 592,557 (+234,447)

New Petition
Peacefully all ALL states that have asked to secede to do so and form their own NEW nation together 1,602

Updated petition numbers as at 05:00 am Tuesday.
Louisiana 26,330; Texas 60,330; Florida 17,898; Georgia 16,741; Alabama 17,031; North Carolina 15,693; Kentucky 11,061; Mississippi 11,176; Indiana 11,366; North Dakota 8,085; Montana 9,031; Colorado 12,803; Oregon 9,487; New Jersey 8,803 and New York, 10,354

Arkansas 12,629; South Carolina 10,018; Missouri 10,672; Tennessee 16,492; Michigan 11,491; Oklahoma 9,650

Added :-
Alaska 1,308; Arizona 9,812; California 4,163; Delaware 3,672; Kansas 6,055; Nevada 4,999; Ohio 3,767; Pennsylvania 6,364; Utah 2,815, West Virginia 2; Wisconsin 5; Wyoming 2,817;

Total 32 states (+11).
Total votes 358,110 (+276,629)

Updated petition numbers as at 03:00 am Monday.
Louisiana, 12,395; Texas, 15,378; Florida, 4,178; Georgia, 3,416; Alabama, 4,150; North Carolina, 3,927; Kentucky, 3,351; Mississippi, 3,296; Indiana, 3,315; North Dakota, 2,589; Montana, 2,971; Colorado, 3,221; Oregon, 2,798; New Jersey, 2,561 and New York, 2,946

Arkansas 581; South Carolina 2,716; Missouri 2,294; Tennessee 2,787; Michigan 2,573; Oklahoma 38

Total states 21
Total votes 81,481

Some numbers
If we could get millions of people on these petitions - THAT WOULD send out a message loud and clear.

Even better get more signatures on these petitions than voted for Obama.
A tough ask.

However approximately :-

90+ million people didn't vote.
63 million voted for Obama.
60 million voted AGAINST him.

Turn it into a referendum on whether Americans really want Obama and his policies, or this Federal government, or something else.
Let's have a PROPER DEBATE about how this country should be run.
There wasn't one in the election - both the candidates had near enough the same policies.

A very substantial number of people that voted for Obama, didn't actually want him and would prefer something else.
I bet more than half.

Potential signatories who probably agree with the motion/referendum 180 million.
Your job is to go out and help get 65 million of them to sign.
Are you up for a challenge?

Go out and get some of the many millions who didn't see any point in voting, because neither of the extremist parties offer any solutions and won't make ANY difference.
Go out and get the 60 million who voted for Romney.
Go out and get the 1 million who voted Gary Johnson and probably at least as many who wrote in Ron Paul.

Go out and get some of the people who voted for Obama as the lesser of 2 evils.

Let's run that by you again.
At LEAST 2 million of you wrote in Ron Paul or voted Gary Johnson.
All you have to do is go and get 30 others each to sign the petition (non RP voters). Does that sound too hard for you?
Go and ask your Ron Paul supporting friends to do the same.

Go out and get some - MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
People have nothing to lose for voting yes to this referendum.
They have everything to gain.

Let the people's voice be heard for a change.

If your state hasn't got a petition yet, why don't you start one?
You will need 150 local signatories to get the ball rolling and it appears on the net.

Lobby prominent Ron Paul supporters to support this effort.
I have asked Judgenap to try and get it out on Fox.
I am asking Doug Wead whether he will support it.

This comment below from Speciallyblend sums up my feelings on the matter exactly
http://www.dailypaul.com/262715/15-states-start-petitions-to...

"duh folks, this petition is to bring to light the frustration and expose the gov corruption in any shape or form. Legit state petitions are possibly forming. It can help expose the establishment. everyone trying to reference it can't be done or arguing reasons are missing the point. This is coming out of voter frustration and a tipping point. It is a great way to expose the gop est corruption to folks who might not of known. It is also a great way to let folks know obama/romney are the same.

Use it how you will but don't argue over the main point. Use all angles and all means to expose the corruption. This is just a vehicle 25000 sigs and obama has to respond by his own website. of course he will say no or whatever excuse to keep the establishment in power but it helps expose the establishment corruption to some degree and that is all that is needed.

If folks are so upset about an online petition. Wonder how they will feel when real ones start showing up with the correct amount of sigs in states such as colorado nevada and many others,delivered to their sec of state! If it happens or not, it helps expose!!"



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Dr. Paul on Secession

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvliy8rEJDQ&feature=youtu.be

"It's very American to talk about secession", he says!

Talking is not signing a petition without talking

How much have we talked about this?

This reminds me of the Richard Golbert Lawsuit.. so many here ran to Richard to save them.. wouldn't listen to those who warned them.

Seems to me we again are not having a disscussion, but rather acts of desperation, like signing a petition..one to take you right over the cliff of ever restoring the constitution and into a NWO.

If that's what you want, a NWO.. let's disscuss it. Let's talk.

signed for Oregon

Go Cascadia/Ecotopia!

8,500+ signatures, maybe half from Oregonians,
looks like.

Make sure you look around for other worthwhile petitions
while you're there...

Let's have a PROPER DEBATE

about the direction this country should take.

There wasn't one in the election.

We need more publicity before that will ever happen and we need more votes.
I do not advocate secession.
I DO advocate better governance.
I want to put pressure on Obama to change his policies.

This is a means to hopefully get that debate.

Obama is going to respond no.
He is going to have trouble keep saying no though, if lots of states pass the 25,000 thresh hold with LOTS MORE votes.

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."

PROPER DEBATE

How can a debate be proper on a forum, there is no interest in it.

There is no demand for it.

The interest and the demand for proper debate occurs as the sources of power meet and struggle to overpower each other and that isn't on an internet forum.

If the topic were to be discussed, in my opinion, the subject of Legal Money has to be tabled for discussion in reference to the actual POWER struggle between a State Government and another State Government inside or outside of a Federation or Nation State or Confederation.

The actual POWER struggle, not the false front, is the struggle over Purchasing Power or Control as that Purchasing Power is being used to Purchase Legalized Fraud (The FED Money Monopoly POWER) and Legalized Extortion (The IRS) and The Military (corrupted from the Top down).

That is why Ron Paul, in my opinion, spoke of ending The FED, ending the IRS, and bringing the Troops Home (not to enforce a new World Reserve Currency POWER stationed in China).

If a Texas State government is exactly as bad as a Federal Government then the people running both won't ever give up their Legal Fraud (Money Monopoly Power) and their Legal Extortion (Involuntary Tax), and if you do not understand that then you do not understand that the two sets of people known as Federal Government and State (Texas, New Jersey, whatever) are all inside the same group of Legalized Criminals, they are on their side, and their victims, the actual producers of wealth, POWER, the stuff worth stealing, are on the other side, so the concept of "petitioning" is the same thing as the concept of destroying things to somehow, as if by magic, produce things. It does not work.

Petitioning works when those people in government are not themselves criminals, so bark up this tree all you want, it makes absolutely no sense, until such time as those 3 things are tackled at each level of government simultaneously.

1.
No Legal Money Monopoly

2.
No Legal "Income" Tax (involuntary tax)

3.
No Standing Army Misled to enforce the first two things

Those things exist at the Federal Level

Those things exist at the State Level

Those things exist at the level of human consciousness or The People.

The Concept of a Confederation involves three things as such:

1.
People governing themselves (Common Law, no need for authority of any kind other than simple Trial by Jury and Common Sense stuff that free people know or suffer as victims if they don't know).

2.
Local Government or State government of sufficient POWER (relative size or scale) to keep out Armies of Criminals who conduct Aggressive Wars for Profit.

3.
Confederated Government or Federation/Nation/Country of sufficient POWER (relative size or scale) to keep out even larger Criminal Organizations or counterfeit Confederations/Federations/Nations/Countries who perpetrate Aggressive Wars for Profit and those wars are not limited to ONLY violence, those wars include deceit, threats of violence, and then violence. A very powerful criminal organization can take over your city, your county, your State, your courts, your Trials by Juries, your "Federal Government" and your economic POWER to use the scarce power you have to make, for yourself, more POWER.

PROPER DEBATE?

Really?

Where?

The few people who have taken over the world Reserve Currency Legal Monopoly Money POWER have everyone in government, down to the space between almost everyone's ears, certainly down to the City and Town levels, playing the Monopoly Game where the Central Bank owns everyone.

So, and again, if the concept of discussion is going to be a device used to improve the perspective of how to get out of this jam, you can call it whatever you want, it is the crime of Fraud, Extortion, Torture, and Murder made legal, from the Top down, and it is here until the victims do something POWERFUL enough to get rid of IT, meaning THEM.

They, and they know who they are, if you don't, have to go, THEIR Credit Card has to be cut, and it is that simple.

If Texas, or any other State, claims to be working toward secession, an actual move to accomplish that FACT, based upon DEMANDS that have to be met, or not met, by the Federal (so called) government, then what MONEY will be used by that State, or those States, once they do, or do not, secede from the Central Bank Union, or whatever name you want to put on the False Front covering up those Crimes made Legal.

There is no way to get from point A to point B without allowing legal competition to exist.

No way.

Liberty is the absence of Legal Crime whereby the criminals destroy all competition of any kind where any POWER competes with their POWER.

That FACT can be easily show to be true, in FACT, with a simple look in your wallet, to find whose the BOSS OF YOU.

If you have those Federal Reserve Notes you are duped, you are victim, you are the chattel, you are the slave, you are the subject, you are among that group, the victims.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amend...

________________________________________________

AMENDMENT XIV

Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.
_________________________________________________

This former Country, now taken over from Top to Bottom, has, perhaps, one last chance, involving an internal Military Revolution; whereby the remaining cooler heads, moral people, in the Military, organized and regain control of that POWER in this former Country.

If that does not happen, do you really think a Texas, or a New Jersey, or a New Hampshire is going to be allowed to compete with their own Legal Money?

It won't happen.

A counterfeit "secession" could happen, but not an actual one, not one where a competitive POWER is competing against the World Reserve Currency POWER.

Most readers have no idea, not one in a million, let alone the 10 people who may read my work.

The reason for Economic Collapse, and the reason for World War III, is to move the Central Bank Location, which was in England before World War II, moved to U.S.A., after World War II, and to be moved to China after World War III.

Most of you have no idea.

Central Bank Central will not allow a competitor the size of China to exist, let alone Texas.

If you actually do, you, you, you, and you, banding together, actually do begin to threaten the Central Bank, no matter where the Gold is kept, or where the World Reserve Currency is printed, here, England, China, no matter where, if you do threaten those few people, at that TOP, you will be targeted, and you will be crushed, unless there are enough of us acting at once, without question, as a FACT.

So...I'm not raining on your parade here, please continue in any way you can think to compete against those few Legal Criminals, that has to happen, that has to happen to bring more people up to speed, because failure to do that is to allow more people to spend their entire lives living lies, as subjects, shackled to an abject belief in falsehood.

In short: You can't discus secession without discussing the Money POWER, because it ain't secession if you can't compete against the Money Power.

Joe

Denise B's picture

Your points are well

taken and accurate Josf, but I think that we have seen that trying to get control of this monster on the federal level is a next to impossible feat at this point. If we are going to get control back, short of through an all out war, it is going to have to be from the bottom up, i.e. the state level, and there have in fact been made some gains in this area. I agree that politely petitioning the federal government to secede from their union is an exercise in futility to the extent that they most certainly will not agree to your peacefully leaving, nor is there any state in the union that is quite ready to realistically take that step right now, for lack of a sound money solution alone, never mind a myriad of other difficulties that would have to be overcome. Petitioning the "king" for anything has never really been anything more than a required step in the process of revolution. Our founding fathers also took the time to petition the king, even knowing what the response would be, because they too were fighting to win in the court of public opinion. Every peaceful, rational step had to be taken prior to war or else they would not have had the backing of the people. This is very much an information war that involves waking up the American public to who the bad guys really are.

Agreement or Fact?

"I agree that politely petitioning the federal government to secede from their union is an exercise in futility to the extent that they most certainly will not agree to your peacefully leaving, nor is there any state in the union that is quite ready to realistically take that step right now, for lack of a sound money solution alone, never mind a myriad of other difficulties that would have to be overcome."

Notes:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/22/utah-gold-standard-...

http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2011/03/04/the-...

http://www.umungu.com/scrip.htm

The point being: It does not matter what is done until an actual threat threatens the power of the Single Money Monopoly and that threat is now rolling down hill picking up steam, and when that happens, not coincidentally, the Legal Monopoly (fraud and extortion) POWER resorts to World War, and they move HQ from one Country to another, as reported in so many ways, so many times, by so many whistle blowers: the evidence is conclusive.

Eurasia - Eastasia = Oceana is Thesis - Antithesis = Synthesis.

The World Wide Business Psycho.

As soon as the power against the monopoly reaches that point of critical mass the Legal Money Power presses the reset button.

Just before The Civil War, for example, was the Wildcat Banking days AFTER the not very nice, at all, Andrew Jackson KILLED the Central Bank of U.S.A. Inc. - what happened?

This:

_____________________________________
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.
_____________________________________

Threatening Secession is meaningless without the Money Competition factor, which is factual, and our agreement has nothing to do with it, we are power-less in the face of Collectivism by way of Legally Punishing and Destroying Competition in Money Markets.

Things happening concurrently, on schedule, not randomly.

Look anywhere, on this planet, and find a competitor allowed to threaten Legal Fraud and Legal Extortion World Wide, call the Monopoly Money Power any name you want, The Dollar Hegemony, Wall Street, The New World Order, The Word Bank, The International Monetary Fund, Friend Chicken, whatever works for anyone to hide the fact that it is Fraud and Extortion made Legal on a Global Level and as more and more people figure it out, there is a standard method by which threats to the Monopoly Power are nullified.

This time period, now, just at the threshold of World War, already started, is the time when a Country like America can opt out of the whole mess, and that is why THIS topic is so important, but ONLY if a Competitive Money Power is secured by those who OPT out, in Unison.

It can't be a little town in Worgle Austria alone, or Ithaca New York alone, or a small company called E-Gold alone, or The Liberty Dollar alone.

It has to be enough people dumping the Monopoly Fraud Extortion Money BECAUSE honest money replaces it.

Honest Competitive, High Quality, Low Cost, Better, money, REPLACES the fraudulent, extorting, one way power flow, Monopoly Legal Money.

That has to happen, without which there will be the Planned Economic Collapse, in Districts drawn on U.N. maps, or in States controlled by Puppets on the Monopoly Bank Payroll.

Know the difference between the genuine competitive options, which force quality up and cost down, and the counterfeit versions, which destroy everything in sight so as to keep power flowing from those who create it to those who steal it.

Why is that not as easy to see as the nose on everyone's face?

I don't know.

"Petitioning the "king" for anything has never really been anything more than a required step in the process of revolution."

Really?

How about this:

http://www.lysanderspooner.org/node/35

That time period is instructive, just like the time period in between 1776 and 1788 is instructive, and the "king" was overpowered in both cases, in one case peacefully, with Magna Carte, and Trial by Jury, and in the other case with The Articles of Confederation, a working competitive Confederation, with Trial by Jury, Common Law, and then, after the experiment in Liberty, after 1788, the Central Bankers took over again here in America, piece by piece.

In between Magna Carte and The Articles of Confederation the Central Bankers took over England, what happened?

The facts are instructive.

People fled the Central Banking Fraud/Extortion Organized Crime Spree in England, after the Magna Carte Experiment in Liberty was internally perverted, and those runaway slaves reinstated Competitive Money, Trial by Jury, and created a Confederation to fight against an Aggressive War Power for Profit that was used all around the world to enforce the Money Monopoly Power. The Friends of Liberty repelled the Aggressive Invasion of War for Profit perpetrated by the World Reserve Currency Power in England - at that time.

So forget about history, OK, and concentrate on here and now, OK, so what means by which all those people in all those Sovereign States, after secession, are able to trade among their own number, Friends of Liberty all, and disconnect from the Money Power that siphons off all their hard earned earnings - to be used against those same Friends of Liberty who "provide the means by which we suffer" through a fraudulent legal money monopoly power?

What means do the runaway slaves trade equitably, without attachment to the legal criminals with their fraud money power?

It has to be a Competitive Money, not "out with the old boss" and in with a new boss, because the old boss and the new boss will make a deal, and guess who gets the short end of the stick?

Change the name on the stationary, call the same racket by another name, throw a bone or two to the victims, let them eat something like cake, make them happy for awhile, and as everyone knows, War is good for the Economy.

If you are the World Reserve Currency Power and War is, in fact, Aggressive Wars for Profit, then "we" win, as in win/win, except the actual casualties, of course, and the collateral damage, of course, but slap a nice sounding name on it, and all is right again?

There has to be a competitive money working among the defenders of Liberty or there won't be power sufficient to deter attack by those very evil people who have grown very accustomed to their Ivory Towers built from millions upon millions of tortured souls.

The honest, high quality, low cost, high power, mutually beneficial, equitable, MONEY, has to exist, or there is no power in our numbers, certainly not enough to overpower those forces aligned to enslave us.

No way.

It has to be, as Ron Paul, and even as Ross Perot before that, point out, it has to be an end of that Debt Psycho, that Business Psycho, so money, legal money, is the key.

Out with monopoly crushing competition, and in with actual competition, where the force is voluntary, and the force is voluntary choices, and the higher quality choices force the product to be made higher in quality, and the force forces the cost, or price, to be lower, and lower, because better is better than worse, so given the choice, or having taken back the choice, we choose, which?

Which lines are drawn on a map?

If we all take a serious look into our wallets, on our financial statements, and know what that Monopoly Money we use IS, in fact, which are tickets to hell on Earth, then Henry Ford's prediction will happen.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
Henry Ford

This legal disconnecting from the Nation State Involuntary "Union", even if most of the States re-form into an actual voluntary Confederation, a Confederation of Sovereign Competitive States, even if that does happen, as was done between 1776 and 1788, there has to be in place a disconnected or competitive Legal Money competition, not just one for all, or absent that Free Market Force of Voluntary Competition, the flow of Power still flows the wrong way, like this:

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/commonsense/sense2.htm

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one: for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries BY A GOVERNMENT, which we might expect in a country WITHOUT GOVERNMENT, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer."

There are no short cuts IN Liberty, there has to be a way to cut the Fraud Credit Card, no short cuts.

That is the point, that exists. I am pointing that out, and it exist even if you or I, or any number of people, fail to agree with it, because that is the point defined precisely that way, if we fail to stop agreeing to aid and abet the fraud and extortion in progress, which is that Money Monopoly Power, and if we fail to agree to start using an honest, accurate, higher quality, and lower cost to us, working, replacement, then there is a steady draining of POWER from those who create that power to those who steal that power with that Legal Money Monopoly.

"Our founding fathers also took the time to petition the king, even knowing what the response would be, because they too were fighting to win in the court of public opinion."

I don't intend to be patronizing, but the story that you appear to be parroting is a well worn out half truth at best, since that story line is true for the time between 1776 and 1788, but that story line is demonstrably false when inspecting the Power over a new Central Bank that was won by the criminals, such as Alexander Hamilton, as those Criminals hid behind the false front called Federalism, and so here again, it seems to me, the effort to secede, plays right into the hands of those who know the facts, know where the truth stops, and where the lies begin.

Was there not at least two groups of those supposed "Founding Fathers"?

The winners wrote much of the Monopoly History, while the losers words went to the Memory Hole?

http://www.wfu.edu/~zulick/340/henry.html

That was DEBATE

here:

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/ratification/virginiatime...

Who won the Debate?

We are discussing the topic, sure, but the Power struggle is not over words, it is over control of that money power, control over productive currency, the stuff used when scarce power is made into abundant power, productivity, division of labor, specialization, economies of scale, mutual benefit, commerce, wealth, surplus wealth, stored in places, creating abundance, or NOT.

Those who seek to own everyone, and everything, know better, and they know they have to have the power over money, legal power over legal money, they have to have it, their whole game falls apart without it.

They have to have these things:

1.
The FED
2.
The IRS
3.
Control over the Troops

If the bad guys still have those things, and we don't have competitive options instead, then those bad guys can move to China, for all they care, and then work their Debt collecting business from a safer place, as they siphon off everything here, including the stuff nailed down, and including the nails.

"This is very much an information war that involves waking up the American public to who the bad guys really are."

Then what?

If the group in charge at the Federal Level allow money competition, or can't stop it, then that is, in fact, secession, with or without the ceremonious window dressing.

Henry Ford was right, it may be worth knowing better.

Joe

Denise B's picture

Josf you really

are a powerhouse of information and I honestly do not disagree with anything that you are saying. I agree 100% with you and Ron Paul that the Fed and their enforcers the IRS are the root of our problems (central banking, fiat debt based currency) and that it is not a problem that affects just our country but a large portion of the world right now (and the nations that have been resistant to it we are currently engaged in war with or soon will be). I also agree with you that the only real solution is to throw off/scrap that whole corrupt and enslaving system and that we need a competing a currency(cies) (not based in debt) to do that, I am in complete agreement with you on those points. I know that Hamilton was a traitor and that Jefferson and Madison were able to stop his central banking schemes early on, but that the battle in no way ended there. The problem, Josf, is that so, so many people are just beginning to awaken to the truth of what has happened to our once properous nation and they sure as heck were never taught any of this in school. We are dealing with a dumbed down, distracted populace that needs to be woken the heck up, and I do believe that with things getting as bad as they are, this is beginning to happen in droves, but there is a learning curve and these things take time to absorb and understand. I completely agree with your solution too but for that to happen the way you lay out, we need a lot of people, especially in places of power, to be on the same page at the same time and I just don't know how that is to be accomplished...I wish I did. I put my faith in God and continue to try to educate people and try to foster anything which tends to accomplish that goal. I also agree that we need to be very wary of false solutions that will be dangled in front of our faces and really, truly do not believe that secession is even close to occuring, nor would the feds allow it peacefully to occur, but I also am not against debating and discussing the topic all together.

Denise B's picture

I also just wanted

to ask if you yourself, Josf have ever thought of running for public office? I think if we could get more people like you, with your understanding of the issues, into places of power it would go along way to helping our cause. I really did enjoy our conversation and am always open to guidance and correction...:)

California 40th 1996

http://clerk.house.gov/member_info/electionInfo/1996election...

On the ballot.

I ran on the "it is not a good idea to burn babies in a church to death and run over them with military tanks in Texas" ticket.

My other platform was "involuntary tax is crime covered up by lies".

I did a radio show.

I spent my own time, my own gas money, my own time from work, my own time from my family, alone, going to a "debate", where the incumbent, paid by me out of my debt, since I was not working to attend the debate, the paid liar, did not trouble himself with superfluous nonsense, such as a pretend election "debate".

I've learn more since 1996, and I was confident enough with what I knew in 1996.

I've put in offerings to run again with the Constitution Party, back again with the Libertarian Party, I went to the recent Reno Nevada Liberty Conference, paying extra to discuss economy with the experts, and I get the bums rush.

The power that will turn this around is accurate perception including the understanding, as clear as having a torture victim being worked on you each tax payers living room, screams, blood squirting, and fingers flying, as clear as that, or clearer, where each tax payer is on the table being worked on, knowing that fact in a nightmare, a real nightmare coming to a theater near you, for those tax payers to "get it", and then in the morning, knowing better, not another counterfeited dollar will be used by any more Friends of Liberty.

Game over.

If that does not happen, God will probably not help us, why would a God help people who willingly work harder and harder to buy a few more days further back in line as the line moves into the meat grinder?

This topic is zeroing in on what must be done, but the LINK of having a Fraudulent Money/Involuntary Income Tax Extortion Racket/and a criminally misled standing army has to be overpowered.

I really think, unfortunately, that the fix, at this point, much like the days before Nazi Germany went past the point of no return, where the Military has to step up, the lower officers, have to exert their own power to honor their own Uniform Code of Military Justice, and refuse to obey any more immoral, illegal, unconstitutional orders, and perhaps, if right now, NOW, the Involuntary Extortion Income Tax Payers take that cue and no more power flows through that means, and at the same time, the State governments refuse to obey unconstitutional orders, and at the same time, competitive currency invention, production, and maintenance begins to replace, and push out, the Fraud Money.

All of that avoids any more violence, no World War III, no more Aggressive Wars for the profit of a few, and no more World Reserve Currency FRAUD power, since American, State competing against State, to raise the bar, higher quality, lower cost, tax payers migrating to the better of the best, a new age of prosperity, power used to make more power, power reaching never before known measures of abundance, and therefore Legal Crime falls away into the never to be returned to errors of human history.

What really boils my mind, these days, knowing what I know, is the total lack of creativity left in the brains of people who have "Joined them" because they believe the lie that they can't be beaten. That lie builds every other one, because that mind is turned off, and turn into a blind belief in falsehood. No invention. No creativity. No imagination. No check on absolute blind obedience to falsehood without question, to a point where these victims, of that lie, are actually volunteering to work to expose "tax evaders" instead of volunteering to sit on a jury and set each "tax evader" free of all wrongdoing, while that power flows from those who create it to those who make torture legal, and mass murder legal, AS A RULE, not an exception.

Place those torture victims on your table, in your kitchen and what is the reaction?

Send the criminals who torture more of your hard earned productive capacity?

You might get a ticket further back in line?

Really?

So...sure, these efforts to do something, even if it is wrong, at least, isn't total abject belief in falsehood without question, a very, very, very big step in direction that maintains precious life IN Liberty.

You are another brave one, and it does not escape me to realize that the brave ones are women.

Where are the men?

Castrated, stupid, or willfully evil?

I don't know.

Joe

FORTY TWO thousand have now voted for Texas

Obama will have to respond.

Louisiana nearly at the 25,000 thresh hold.

Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada, Delaware have been added to day.

LOADS of votes added for other states too.

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."

This isn't good

Destroying the republic is exactly the opposite of why Ron Paul ran for president. It is exactly the opposite of his message.

You don't know much about Ron

You don't know much about Ron Paul's message. Here is a video where he talks about how important secession is, and why we should consider it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvliy8rEJDQ

Seen it

Ron Paul says It's not unamerican to discuss it DISCUSS IT. GREAT topic for discussion, and I can see a state4 like Hawai'i, whose been working to secede for decades... where are they? Where's their petition?

He does not say we should consider it.. we should discuss it without saying someone is unamerican.. It's not unamerican to talk about secession. I'm not even saying it's unamerica to sign a petition linked to the whitehouse.

Are you going to tell me that these petitoons are not designed to bust up the UNITED States? Going to tell me that this isn't a perfect opportunity for the NWO?

Yeah, you really don't

Yeah, you really don't understand Ron Paul. He thinks the constitution should have explicitly included the right to secede. He thinks that we will eventually have defacto secession and believes that is a good thing. You are nuts if you think secession is a means to empower the NWO. http://southernnationalist.com/blog/2012/07/03/ron-paul-de-f...

You're right, its a trap of terrifying portence!

You're right, its a trap of terrifying portence! Putting one's signature to a declaration of session, and GIVING it to the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, whose executive operates the Department of Homeland Security and is empowered to detain without warrant under the NDAA and prosecute under treason laws is not the brightest thing to do.

Brave and defiant and sentimental, yes. But bright? No.

"Cowards & idiots can come along for the ride but they gotta sit in the back seat!"

Shouldn't we be communicating

Shouldn't we be communicating this as individuals, and not collectives, in a republic?

http://www.dailypaul.com/262871/peacefully-allow-dax-ewbank-...

Will the United States exist forever and ever?

No. In fact, the idea of having loosely affiliated sovereign political societies fell apart when some rich land barons, lawyers, and bankers got together in Philly and decided to co-opt the revolution against empire. They desired national vainglory and prestige among the nations of Europe.

They adopted a Constitution that manifestly changed the nature of the United States that existed under the substantially weaker Articles of Confederation.

The idea of an "American Republic" was truly abandoned during the 1860's, and the matter was settled: the federal government would be master, the states would be its subordinates. And the people in general? Slaves on the federal plantation.

Fast-forward 150 odd years and you have a true polyglot of people, existing over an extensive territory, with limited federal representation (435 fed reps for 310 million people?)that hold unlimited federal powers: tax, spend, borrow, and regulate everything and everybody. The President is a military king with veto power. The judges rubber stamp the federal boot that's marching on our faces.

The solution to empire is secession. Not Rand Paul '16.

I am getting a LOT of JOY on getting Ron Paul's msg out

on Huffy Po on their story about states seceding petitions.

Getting past the censors

My latest comments http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/Ian56?action=comments

Fed wasting $1tn+ of states taxpayer money every year
Fed driving states economies into the ground because of it
Poverty levels, real unemployment, median household incomes, median wage levels
Fed abuses - NDAA indefinite detention, warrantless searches, Patriot Act, TSA, Fed forfeitures

The Huffy Po article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/12/secession-petition-...

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."

Consider

Cory et al. v. Carter, 48 Ind. 327(1874)

"Both before and after the Fourteenth Amendment to the federal Constitution, it has not been necessary for a person to be a citizen of the United States in order to be a citizen of his state." Crosse v. Board of Supervisors of Elections, 221 A.2d 431 (1966)

"A person may be a citizen of a particular state and not a citizen of the United States. To hold otherwise would be to deny to the state the highest exercise of its sovereignty -- the right to declare who are its citizens." State v. Fowler, 41 La. Ann. 380, 6 S. 602 (1889)

The day before the 14th

The day before the 14th Amendment, the Amendment that created the Federal Citizen, was ratified, the Expatriation Act was announce as effective. The Expatriation Act makes becoming a United States Citizen a voluntary action, and it creates a 2 way door to that citizenship.

US Citizenship has always been voluntary. It is presumed that everyone wants this membership unless they specifically denounce it.

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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

I completely endorse the

I completely endorse the right to secession (see my username!) but secession should not be urged at this point. Secession is NOT the answer if state legislators are defending the Constitution by nullifying unconstitutional laws. The only time secession would be necessary is if a state were dissatisfied with Washington's CONSTITUTIONAL implementation of laws (i.e. a state did not want to participate in or fund a Constitutional war, wanted to regulate foreign trade differently, etc).

Though this type of petition carries no weight, it would be good for a state to first ask for peaceful separation, like the founders did. If the answer is yes (it wont be) then that's great, if the answer is no then that answer will have significance in considering future action.

Also, the best time to secede would be when we had a President who was let us go freely (i.e. Rand Paul). Otherwise, they'll attack us and their aggression would leave us worse than where we had begun. Unfortunately, no one would want to secede during a Rand Paul presidency.

The secession talk right now is just symbolic. But once no one can afford gas or food and states are going bankrupt, secession will be much more than symbolic. States that receive federal bailouts only on condition of federally approved state budgets will rebel against their loss of self-determination. Responsible states that fund those bailouts will rebel against the extraction of their wealth.

We would do well to start secession movements for New York and California!

"You must be frank with the world; frankness is the child of honesty and courage...Never do anything wrong to make a friend or keep one...Above all do not appear to others what you are not" - Robert E. Lee, CSA

This story has now appeared on Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/12/secession-petition-...

Whatever anyone might say SOME publicity is being generated.
And most of the Dems on Huffy Po are not happy about it.

My comments on the above article

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/Ian56/secession-petitio...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/Ian56/secession-petitio...

My other comment about these petitions being about voter frustration with the current system and both parties offering more of the same was censored on Huffy Po.

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."

Come on folks!

Petitioning your state government officials to nullify the NDAA and Obamacare and use the state guard to back up those nullification decisions would be a lot more useful than this. Maybe if more than 50% of your state's population had voted third party this might work, but, the majority of people in the states that these petitions are floating APPROVE of our current government.

And exactly how much publicity do you think you are

going to get for that?

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."

The States can only nullify

The States can only nullify NDAA and Obamacare for THEIR OWN CITIZENS. They CANNOT nullify these Acts for Federal Citizens (United States Citizens).

14th Amendment 1st Clause: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.

It would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL for the States to do so.

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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

Does the federal government make a distinction?

I wasn't aware that the feds make a distinction between the two. Do you have a Supreme Court ruling that specifies that?

I't pretty blinking obvious.

I't pretty blinking obvious. Are you a US Citizen? If yes, the the above applies to you. If no, then it doesn't. The State Citizen part is not what matters. It doesn't matter if you're Citizen of Timbuctoo or where ever. ARE YOU A/ALSO United States Citizen. If yes, then the States cannot abridge THOSE privileges and immunities afforded by the Federal Government to ITS citizens.

Either you ARE a US Citizen or you ARE NOT a US Citizen. IT doesn't matter what you are ADDITIONALLY to being a US Citizen.

The States additionally are subservient to the Federal Government because the States' governments are occupied by UNITED STATES CITIZENS. These government heads, Governors, State Reps and State Senators have an allegiance to the Federal Government.

8 USC para 1101
(21) The term “national” means a person owing permanent allegiance to a state.
(22) The term “national of the United States” means
(A) a citizen of the United States,

All State government officials are United States Citizens, they owe a permanent allegiance to the FEDERAL government. They risk treason for certain violations of that allegiance.

You can find a plethora of court cases on the 14th Amendment overturning States Rights based upon the 14th Amendment's Citizen's privileges and immunities, including Roe vs Wade.

PS: a)Have you EVER signed a legal document that ask you which state you were a CITIZEN of, or do these legal documents ask you if you are a US Citizen, yes or no, and then ask you which state you are a RESIDENT of. b) can you find anything in your State's statutes that refers to "citizens" of your state, or are there only references to RESIDENTS of your state and general references to citizens. c) can you find in your state's constitution what qualifies an individual to be a Citizens OF that state.

Your probably going to find that when the states refer to a "citizen" they mean US Citizens of their state. Prior to 1868 it was just the opposite, i.e., a Texas Citizen of the United States of America, instead of a US Citizen of the State of Texas. Prior to the 14th Amendment, a US Citizen meant you were a citizen of one of the States, after the Amendment US citizen meant you were a citizen of the Federal Government.

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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence