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The Bible does not support Zionism (the geopolitical variety anyway)

My liberty friends, you will hear in heightened tones from your "Christian" friends and family that the bible mandates we " christian/ americans" must support the State of Israel. The bible does not endorse any geo-political entity. Please take time to watch and listen to this relatively short documentary and share it with those who are willing to consider that this long held assumption may in fact be a distortion of biblical truth, by those with narrow political and economic interests. This false mantra(meme) exits in many of my generation (50 and up) and is passed down to the next. Please watch> http://vimeo.com/29901084 Political Zionism is racism and "un-christian" because it requires one to show favoritism, which God does not do. **Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.....
**Acts 10:33-35



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My Mother and I had a

My Mother and I had a conversation about this topic while I was visiting for Thanksgiving. I'd like to know this guy's argument, but would prefer to read it. (What takes him 60 min to say takes 15 to read...) Can someone summarize his points, or direct me to a transcript?

Zionism started as a secular

Zionism started as a secular idea. It was atheists/non-religious who promoted Zionism. Orthodox Jews believe that a Jewish state would be created by a divine mandate not a political solution.

Here's a good summary-
http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/judaism/bldef_zion...

DSTAR

I don't watch these channels often but it just so happens the last 2 or 3 times i've turned over to D Star, 'Defending Isreal' is the only thing they were talking about.

It was scary and sad at the same time.

Suppressing ther TRUTH

Most "Christians" are unaware that Rabbi's and other jewish persons do not support THE STATE of Israel. see other DPer's(fishyculture) post here>>> http://www.dailypaul.com/264631/jews-including-rabbis-protes... Also see Facebook page : http://www.facebook.com/EndChristianZionism?ref=h

With all due respect, I will no longer be a voting prostitute for Constitution rejecting harlots.

Re: Golden Rule Does Not Support Zionism

279 comments later, in honor of having made the first comment to this topic, I am re-posting (besides, why not bump along further such a popular topic?).

"Most organized religions can be boiled down to basically the golden rule, just with different window dressings. The solution is to no longer allow window dressings to get in the way of actually seeing and understanding what is necessary to usher in peace":

"Sowing The Seeds For A Peace Revolution - The New Bible"
- http://www.dailypaul.com/241312/sowing-the-seeds-for-a-peace...

- AMAZING PHOTO delineating where UNRESTRAINED CAPITALISM has taken us: http://www.rense.com/general96/whatare.html
- "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."-- Mohandas Gandhi

Relevant reading

The Seven Pillars Of Jewish Denial- http://rense.com/general29/seven.htm

Very insightful article written by a Jewish woman about Jewish identity and why American Jews have trouble being critical (and tolerating criticism) of Israel.

Amen on that...

I believe that Zionism is as close to the occult as one can get without being in Hell itself. Zionism is the enemy of all free men. No man who wants to be free can be free under the Laws that the Zionist live by.

Judaism was fulfilled by Christ's birth

Christians are the new Israel and are heir to all promises to God's nation. Judaism ended in 33AD. God's chosen people were chosen as the vessel and nation to host God incarnate and they fulfilled that role. Those who recognized and accepted God became Christian, the rest excommunicated themselves from God. Their progeny have been fooled and sheltered from the truth for countless generations.

Yes.

They were chosen to demonstrate certain things to the world, much as a teacher picks a student to demonstrate a math problem on the chalkboard in front of the class.

When they rejected Messiah they were cut off of the olive tree temporarily, and the Gentiles were grafted in. At some point the Jews will recognize Jesus and will be grafted back in.

The Jews' possession of their land was dependent on their faith. They refused to have faith, so they lost their land. They do not have an unmitigated right to it. We are to treat Israel like any other nation, which means "love your neighbor as yourself", as Ron Paul has repeatedly said.

Here's a crash course for you

=============================
790 - 810: KHAZAR EMPIRE CONVERTS TO JUDAISM
The Khazars are a Turkic-Hun people. Their empire stretches across modern day Ukraine, Western Russia, Northern Turkey, Georgia, Western Kazakstan, and Azerbaijain. For reasons unclear, the entire Khazarian nobility converts to Judaism. The subjects soon follow.
.
When Rus warriors (modern day Euro-Russians) conquer the Khazars in the 960's, The Khazar Jews (today known as Ashkenazi) settle throughout Europe, mostly in the east (Poland, Russia, Hungary, Germany etc) The Ashkenazi Jews, who have no ancestral linkage to the ancient Jews of Judea, today constitute 80% of the Jewish population worldwide. Ashenazis dominate Israeli and American politics and are known to discriminate against the darker Sephardic Jews (the original Jews).
============================================
i.e. They're not Semites.
Get the rest of the story at http://www.tomatobubble.com/middle_east.html

The history of the Khazars is true, but the rest is not.

There is no (i.e. < 1% DNA relationship) between the Khazar's and Ashkenazi Jews.

Sorry, but DNA testing has completely disproven what you posted above.

Ashkenaz have an over 90+% direct DNA relationship to the 12 tribes and an almost 95% DNA relationship to the Sephardim.

I.e. you're posting old, old info that has been scientifically disproven.

The word "Ashkenaz" is the Hebrew word for German, Norse or "northmen" and means nothing more than that.

Dear FBI_Exposer

"Today, to trace anyone's descent to ancient Palestine would be a genealogical impossibility; and to presume, axiomatically, such a descent for Jews, alone among all human groups, is an assumption of purely fictional significance. Most everybody in the Western world could stake out some claim of Palestinian descent if genealogical records could be established for two-thousand years." ~ Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal

Not that it matters, of course, since the right to the land was always tied to obedience to the law of Moses, which is past and fulfilled in Christ.

btw, the genealogical records were destroyed in 70 AD. They were kept in the temple, you see, which was burned down.

DNA testing was not available when...

Lillianthal wrote that quote.

It is not only possible to trace peoples' DNA back to the Jews of the 12 tribes, but it's done daily as is tracing DNA back through all nations and peoples.

The old notion of "race" that was theorized back in the 1800s which is still held by most people today has been obliterated by Y-DNA testing.

Now, the only "races" are haplogroups. Look it up. It's public knowledge, if not yet common yet. But that doesn't matter. You can't refute the scientific data.

You haven't...

...provided any scientific data that you speak of. Nor can you.

Suffice to say, there's no way to test DNA because there's no way to know the DNA of the 12 Tribes. Judaism is a religion, not a race. In fact, it always was a religion, never a race. Abraham was an Iraqi who became a Jew "by faith."

go do basic research

They compared it to Sephardic Jews and other indigenous populations in the Middle East.

This isn't a matter of opinion. Go do some basic research. The Khazars theory has been disproven.

"and other indigenous...

"...populations." You just stated it -- other indigenous populations could be anyone.

As Dr. Alfred Liliennthal, himself a Jew, said, almost everyone could trace their genes back to the Middle East if they trace back far enough. 10 of the tribes were lost during the Babylonian exile -- that's a very long time ago.

And as far as the "Khazars theory has been disproven," that's quite a statement with no link or reference to back it up.

Not that any of this matters, of course, because inheritance in the true Promised Land has always been by faith, never by blood.

Absolutely correct. Being

Absolutely correct. Being Jewish is a statement of religion, not race. He is correct that DNA can show area of origin, however, it can never show you the religion of those tested. The race associated with that part of the world is Semitic, which in modern day parlance would be all Arabs, Israelis, and any other indigenous desert dwellers in the Middle East. In other words, its impossible to trace DNA back to the twelve tribes since we have no idea what religion the original bearers of that DNA professed.

[FYI, my degree is in anthropology/archeology.]

Blessings )o(

Nonsense.

I do not have to recite Principia Mathematica in order to discuss gravity.

Y-DNA testing is established, common science since 2000 in which year the geneticist who discovered it won the nobel prize.

Your ignorance of it neither requires me to educate you, nor does it have any impact whatsoever regarding the facts surrounding it nor the veracity of my statements. Sorry.

DNA testing is done on bones all across the world every day. Of course haplogroups can be identified through DNA testing. To assert otherwise is utter ignorance.

You're joking; right?

This must be a put-on. And on whose bones did they conduct the DNA testing? Or do you believe they dug up some 5,000-year-old bones in or around Jerusalem and said, "voila, must have been a member of the 12 tribes"?

With all due respect, you're being very silly. It's no wonder you never provided a link.

You're right.

There is no scientific field of study called anthropology.

You avoided the questions

Where did they get the historical DNA to test the current population to?

Right now, your assertions sound like a simple attempt at a hoax.

_________________________________

Freedom - Peace - Prosperity

Your feelings are irrelevant.

As are mine. They do not change scientific data. Downvotes do not change scientific data. The data is published. You can find it yourself.

What do you mean "where did 'they' get historical DNA". You get it from bones, duh.

As an Anthropologist I can

As an Anthropologist I can tell you definitively that yes, we can trace DNA to area of origin, however, you can not prove religion through DNA. Being Jewish is a profession of religion, not a race, just as being Christian is profession of religion, not a race. The indigenous race in the Middle East is semitic, meaning all Arabs, Israelis, and any other desert dwellers in that area. You can trace DNA to the middle east but there is no way to know what religion the original bearers of that DNA professed. In order to prove that the DNA was of one of the original tribes, you'd need to find a body from one of those original twelve tribes, prove without a doubt that that person was a member of one of those original tribes, and then test the DNA from it if possible, and compare to modern DNA. Being able to get a viable sample of DNA from a 6000 yr old, possibly older, corpse is highly unlikely. The chances of proving that corpse's religion during his lifetime is more unlikely still. I'm sorry to say that your hypothesis of DNA testing to prove descent from one of the twelve tribes doesn't hold up under scrutiny. The best you will get with his kind of testing is area of origin, which does not prove religious profession of the original bearer of that DNA.

Blessings )o(

Being a descendant of the Israelites mentioned in the Bible

is more than just a personal religion. Just like anyone descendant from anyone else there is a genetic relationship.

But thank you for your scientific input. That's very appreciated vs. the emotional ranting and pseudoscience that's been going on around here.

As far as Y-DNA testing, are you saying you cannot pull DNA from bones?

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Y-DNA+fr...

No, not saying you can't pull

No, not saying you can't pull DNA from bones, only that it becomes more difficult the further back you go in time. DNA is compromised by many things. It depends on the state of preservation and how its collected. To get good DNA the remains would have to be in an excellent state of preservation and the collection process and chain of custody would have to be free of all contamination. If you even so much as cough or sneeze while collecting that DNA you will contaminate the sample.

Tracking Y-DNA would not be useful in tracing roots back to the 12 tribes since Judaism is passed down through the mother, not the father. A man who marries a woman who is not Jewish has children who are not Jewish, unless the woman converts. Only then are the children considered Jewish. So, let's say hypothetically, a Jewish man from the 12 tribes marries a non-Jewish woman who is not semitic and the woman converts and they have children. Those kids are Jewish. The daughter from that marriage who is Jewish, marries a man who is not Jewish or semitic, those kids are Jewish as well. Their children will be Jewish, but only partially semitic. The Y-DNA will be altered for subsequent generations since Y-DNA is passed only through the father and now comes from the non-Jewish, non-semitic man who married that Jewish girl who was only half semitic, and partially descended from one of the 12 tribes. Subsequent generations will show the Y-DNA from the non-Jewish, non-semitic man who married that Jewish girl.

Likewise, the matrilineal DNA won't provide you with the results you seek either. Because of the necessity of conversion to pass on the Jewish religion, the DNA will be diluted as shown in the above example. Again, you'll get an area of origin, and indicators of ethnicity, but you won't be able to prove that they were a descendent of one of the 12 tribes.

Either way, you may be able to trace back to the Middle East area and you may be able to trace to a semitic race, but there is no way to show that the DNA comes from someone who was a member of one of those twelve tribes. You may be able to prove a common ancestor, but there is no way to prove that the common ancestor was one of those twelve tribes unless you have the known, proven body of one of those twelve tribes to compare that DNA to.

Blessings )o(

Flaw in your logic.

Matrilineal religious Judaism was instituted in or around 200 ad.

That said, your statement presumes that no men were Jewish and we know that's obviously false. In fact, familial names, at least in historic times often representing tribes, were naturally patrilineal and, of course, there were Jewish mean. Hence Y-DNA tracing is an extremely effective of tracing that heritage.

People have been named Levy and Cohen for 1000 years, for example. You are saying that tracing their familial Y-DNA is not effective for tracing their Jewish cultural heritage? Hmmm.. I think the founder of familytreedna.com, a Jewish guy, would disagree. His colleague and board member was the guy who won the nobel prize for exactly this testing.

Not to mention if you read actual geneological records of families whose histories were traced via Y-DNA, they line right up. I'm looking at one now that traces an Ashkenaz family back to Portugal in the 1400s. The family history and the Y-DNA results are virtually synonymous.

While the 1400s are not the 400s, it does speak to the fact that Y-DNA tracing is extraordinarily accurate particularly in Jewish families who, culturally, had very little intermixing with other cultures until the current era.

I agree that the Jewish

I agree that the Jewish family names go back for a long time, yet there is no way to tell how that family came by that name. One can't assume that because generations of people in a family carry the name Levy, that the originator was Jewish or that the name wasn't adopted at some point in time. I stand by my analysis. There is no way to prove an unbroken line back to one of the original twelve tribes.

I understand what the man who founded FamilyTreeDNA is trying to prove, and I find his conclusions to be flawed because of the intermixing of races of people going back to the beginning of time.

Most archeologists agree that the Israeli and Arab archeology and historical science is often flawed because of the eagerness to prove their holy books and their understanding of history. I see this as another example of that flaw. For those that don't know, Israel, Egypt et al, rarely let anyone outside of their communities participate in their science or excavations without first agreeing to the agenda to prove the existence of their history in the manner that they tell it. Most examinations of Middle Eastern archeology are necessarily done from an office somewhere rather than actual boots on the ground because of those provisos. If you are fortunate enough to get a permit to examine a site in the Middle East, its with an escort from the Govt to make sure that your discoveries uphold their story. Going into a scientific examination with the express purpose of proving a bias is not good science. One has to go into it with an open mind and then draw your conclusions.

I see this as another example of this man going into the science with an express purpose of proving an historical line back to the 12 tribes. I find that to be a flaw in the science since it allows for no other circumstances and there is no way to account for the intermixing of peoples and it assumes that any semitic race traced back by someone with a last name that is Jewish means that this line must be descended from one of the 12 tribes. There is absolutely no way to prove that descent without a lot of unfounded assumptions.

So, guess we're at a stalemate on this one, but I thank you for an interesting conversation!

Blessings )o(

"the intermixing of races"

"The intermixing of races" is detectable patrilineally via Y-DNA and matrilineally via mtDNA.

The reason I put the phrase above in quotes is via DNA testing there's no such thing as a "race" anymore as you think of it. Hence, the phrase is meaningless. I used it here only to frame the context of the discussion.

The "races" are haplogroups and gene markers. No more than that and no less than that.

Hence, when you say "intermixing of races" what do you mean by it? Some amorphous anthropological or cultural theoretical construct based on what scientists in the 1800s meant by race?

Or are you talking families (haplogroups) of DNA?

What exactly do you even mean by that statement?

I thank you as well and welcome any further comments you have and fully understand if you do not wish to explore it further here. Cheers!

^ this guy is 100% correct.

dinahtab is spot on! Looking for the inheritance of the land of Palestine is as ridiculous as looking forward to starting up the sacrificial system again in a new temple. Both are shadows that point to a better fuller reality that Jesus fulfills.

"For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near." Hebrews 10:1

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson