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The Bible does not support Zionism (the geopolitical variety anyway)

My liberty friends, you will hear in heightened tones from your "Christian" friends and family that the bible mandates we " christian/ americans" must support the State of Israel. The bible does not endorse any geo-political entity. Please take time to watch and listen to this relatively short documentary and share it with those who are willing to consider that this long held assumption may in fact be a distortion of biblical truth, by those with narrow political and economic interests. This false mantra(meme) exits in many of my generation (50 and up) and is passed down to the next. Please watch> http://vimeo.com/29901084 Political Zionism is racism and "un-christian" because it requires one to show favoritism, which God does not do. **Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.....
**Acts 10:33-35




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You cited Principia. You have

You cited Principia. You have yet to cite a study. See the difference? Did you think we wanted you to go out and perform the study yourself? Lol.

Ventura 2012

Perhaps we should start a new thread on logic and debate theory.

I do not presume to know what you want. However, I do not work for you.

Logically, either what I state is true or not. Were I speaking of some kind of arcane knowledge, knowledge that were not public, or asserting a novel idea I came up with, then you are correct, I would be required to present it or, logically, it would be Ipse Dixit.

In this case, however, you personally already have the proof. You've just decided to not avail yourself of it. That is not Ipse Dixit.

Just as I do not need to present and interpret Principia Mathematica to you to have a discussion of gravity, neither am I required to do your research of this public, open, available knowledge for you to feed it to you like a 2 year old.

My provision of that information or failure to provide it neither changes its existence or content. On the flip side, your ignorance or knowledge of it neither changes its existence or content.

A is A

Cheers!

So you do agree that Palestinian are Jew

1. So both the European Jews from Poland/Russia/etc share the same descendant as the Palestinian.

2. So now that we understood that, the next question is who has more right to the land?

3. Imagine a guy from Virginia and a guy from California arguing which one of them should be able to live in San Francisco.

4. The Virginia guy argue that since Virginia is part of "Original America" it has more historical cloud.

5. The California guy argue since San Francisco has always been part of California, then he should be able to live there.

6. The best is for them to BOTH live there as AMERICANS.

7. Similar with Palestine/Israel. The best if for them to live together like they did before WW1. However, Israel dont want this because they want a race-based state.

I don't know about Palestineans

I'll stipulate if you say you have seen the DNA evidence that they are descendant from the 12 tribes.

The European Jewish settlers in Israel are also descendant from the 12 tribes with extremely tight correlation as measured by Y-DNA.

I didn't address any of the foreign policy concerns and frankly don't care because it's not my business. That's a separate issue from what the DNA data shows.

Ashkenazi Jews DNA says they are not SEMITIC!!!

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707...

1 Department of Hematology, Hebrew University–Hadassah Medical School, Jerusalem
2 Hadassah University Hospital, Hebrew University–Hadassah School of Dental Medicine, Jerusalem
3 Laboratory of Biological Anthropology and Ancient DNA, Hebrew University–Hadassah School of Dental Medicine, Jerusalem
4 Institut für Rechtsmedizin, Westfälische Wilhelms-Universität, Münster, Germany
5 Anthropology and Human Genetics Unit, Indian Statistical Institute, Calcutta

A sample of 526 Y chromosomes representing six Middle Eastern populations (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Kurdish Jews from Israel; Muslim Kurds; Muslim Arabs from Israel and the Palestinian Authority Area; and Bedouin from the Negev) was analyzed for 13 binary polymorphisms and six microsatellite loci. The investigation of the genetic relationship among three Jewish communities revealed that Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews. The differences among Ashkenazim may be a result of low-level gene flow from European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation. Admixture between Kurdish Jews and their former Muslim host population in Kurdistan appeared to be negligible. In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors. The two haplogroups Eu 9 and Eu 10 constitute a major part of the Y chromosome pool in the analyzed sample. Our data suggest that Eu 9 originated in the northern part, and Eu 10 in the southern part of the Fertile Crescent. Genetic dating yielded estimates of the expansion of both haplogroups that cover the Neolithic period in the region. Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin differed from the other Middle Eastern populations studied here, mainly in specific high-frequency Eu 10 haplotypes not found in the non-Arab groups. These chromosomes might have been introduced through migrations from the Arabian Peninsula during the last two millennia. The present study contributes to the elucidation of the complex demographic history that shaped the present-day genetic landscape in the region.

Introduction

The Middle East played a crucial role in early human history. Its strategic location at the crossroads of three continents facilitated the movements of peoples and the spread of novel technologies and ideas. At the beginning of the Neolithic period (∼10,500 years ago), the Fertile Crescent of the Middle East was one of the few centers in which the transition from hunting-gathering to permanent settlement and farming took place (Bar-Yosef 1995). Previous genetic studies suggested that demic diffusion of Neolithic farmers, rather than cultural transmission, was responsible for the dispersal of domesticates and technological innovations from the Middle East to Europe, North Africa, and southwest Asia (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Richards et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2000; Quintana-Murci et al. 2001).

Polymorphisms on the nonrecombining part of the Y chromosome have become powerful tools for the investigation of genetic diversity in males, complementing the information from the maternally inherited mtDNA. Y chromosome variants were shown to be much more localized geographically than mtDNA or autosomal polymorphisms (Seielstad et al. 1998). The study of population history has gained enormous momentum with the recent introduction of a large number of new binary or biallelic Y chromosome polymorphic markers (Underhill et al. 2000). The typing of these markers in a set of worldwide populations led to a comprehensive and detailed Y chromosome phylogeny.

When microsatellites are analyzed within a haplogroup classified by binary polymorphisms, a measure of diversity is added that allows evaluation of interpopulation affinities at fine resolution (Hurles et al. 1999; Helgason et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2000; Thomas et al. 2000; Kayser et al. 2001). In addition, microsatellite variation provides an estimation of time depth and, hence, facilitates the investigation of the origin and spread of haplogroups and permits placement of the genealogical projections in the context of known or surmised historical events (Zerjal et al. 1997; Hurles et al. 1998; Quintana-Murci et al. 2001). Particular high-frequency modal haplotypes have been shown to be associated with genealogies defined by religious status (Thomas et al. 1998) or surnames that are transmitted along male lines (Sykes and Irven 2000). The Cohen modal haplotype (CMH) has been described as the signature haplotype of the paternally inherited Jewish priesthood (Thomas et al. 1998).

Previous investigations based on binary Y chromosome polymorphisms suggested a common origin for Jewish and non-Jewish populations living in the Middle East (Santachiara-Benerecetti et al. 1993; Hammer et al. 2000). Our recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool (Nebel et al. 2000). Of those Palestinian chromosomes, approximately one-third formed a group of very closely related haplotypes that were only rarely found in Jews. Altogether, the findings indicated a remarkable degree of genetic continuity in both Jews and Arabs, despite their long separation and the wide geographic dispersal of Jews.

LOL Nice try.

"Significant" in science is like 1%. What did I post earlier? Sephardic relationship to 12 tribes 98+%, Ashkenaz relationship 90+% and Azhkenaz vs. Sephardim = close to 95%.

So explain to me how what I wrote here or what you wrote above means that Ashkenaz are NOT related to the 12 tribes or are descendant from Asiatic Khazars.

Nonsense.

Great Stuff

Thank you for sharing this video. It's sad to see the extent that Christianity has been hijacked by political Zionism. We're in the middle of the 10th Crusade.

Thank You bandrig, I new this would be a controversal topic

but the principles are pretty basic, I have added to the post: political Zionism is racism and "un-christian" because it requires one to show favoritism, which God does not do. **Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
**Acts 10:33-35 Peace to You,as Jesus gives it.

With all due respect, I will no longer be a voting prostitute for Constitution rejecting harlots.

Do you have a more reliable source?

I have written a comment below. The website this video refers to contains is anti God of the Old Testament. http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2838114 I would like a more reliable source if you know of one. I am still trying to sort all of this out in my mind.

That's what you're going to use

to try to prove the Bible doesn't predict the return of the Israelites to Palestine and the reforming of the nation of Israel? The fellow who did the documentary doesn't even believe what he is supposedly trying to support in an effort to refute a belief he doesn't understand.
There are literally dozens of Bible verses that predict the return of the Jews and the restoration of Israel in Palestine. It happened in 1948. Human beings had no way of knowing that on their own 2,000-3,000 years ago. Whether or not we agree with Israel carving out its own country and running over the Palestinians is completely irrelevant to what the Bible has to say about the restoration of Israel.
"But, I don't believe the Bible."
Well, that didn't stop the Bible from being accurate as far as the country of Israel is concerned. I can choose to believe the story of the Puritans landing at Plymouth is a myth, that doesn't change history.

To Dixie: I believe the Bible

I just don't believe Scofield's notes. If you read the Bible and allow it to interpret itself, I believe you'll find it's very clear that the prophecies you seem to think are being fulfilled in our generation were actually fulfilled long ago.

It's kind of sad that Dispensationalists claim to take the Bible so literally, except for the meanings of simple words like "soon," "at hand," and interpreting "this generation" to mean "the generation living in the 21st century" (it used to mean the generation of 1948 -- 40 years -- but since that didn't happen, the definition of a generation is now much longer to fit the futurist Dispensational view).

^ thank you

Thank you for not allowing dispensational garbage to hijack Christianity.

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

Thank you too...

...for your comment regarding the types and shadows in the OT that have been fulfilled in Christ.

"But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother." (Galatians 4:26)

yes, and those verses can also be interpreted to mean that . . .

at some point (before or after 1948) Jews will be given a homeland by the Messiah, not the U.N./Britain/America.

And the fact that not all Jews are in Israel and that not all the Jews in Israel are practicing Jews--

makes it even more complicated.

There is a verse in one of the minor prophets (I can't pinpoint where right now) where it is prophesied that 2/3 of the Jews will be killed in the wars preceding the ocming of Jesus Christ or Messiah--

I don't believe in trying to make that happen (unlike the Christian Zionists), but at some point those who have lived violence will be destroyed--

it's a given. And those who have proclaimed peace will live--

I believe that there have been changes made to parts, especially, of the Old Testament--

and I do believe that God plans to gather His people--

but His people are all over the world, not just those who label themselves a particular label, and His people are those who ACT like His people--

Peaceful Jews were returning on their own to Palestine and getting along with the Muslims/Arabs there before 1948--

that was hijacked by the U.N./Zionists/British--

which gathering was valid?

It remains to be seen--

but those African Jews who are of African descent whose DNA prove levitical lineage (can't find the WSJ article that talked about it in the early 90s) who went to Israel to be 'gathered' were sorely disappointed at how they were treated, because they were black--

lots of discrepancies--

Frankly, I'd rather support Rabbi Weiss and his group--

peaceable Jews who are waiting for Messiah to give them a land, without bloodshed--

but that land has already been saturated in blood--

:(

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

You can't pinpoint...

... where in the Bible it's stated that 2/3 of the Jews will be killed before the return of Christ because it isn't in the Bible!

I wish American Christians who read these sensationalist futurist books would read the Bible for a change. The country would be a lot better off!

that's not true; it is--

in one of the minor prophets--

I will find it--

I have never read a sensationalist futurist book--

whatever that is--

I found it while reading the bible once; it doesn't use the exact same words; it's something like 1 in 3 will be saved when Jesus comes; the same prophecy could apply to all the humans in the world--

I know someone who knows where it is, and I'll get the reference for you--

I don't subscribe to Scofield or his bible or to any of the Christian Zionists--

I don't believe that Jews are any more wicked than any other people or will be when Jesus comes--

what I do believe is that the Old Testament was meant for the children of Israel, so the warnings were to them and their descendants--

in all probability 2/3 of the people in the world will be killed, whether by nuclear holocaust or famine, etc.--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Sorry

I wasn't clear in my post and I meant no offense to you.

You're right -- Zechariah 13:8 speaks of that -- but I believe it's a prophecy about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Christ told believers to "flee to the mountains" (Matthew 24:16). In fact, believers were warned time and again throughout the NT about the coming fall of Jerusalem.

If there were a nuke attack on Jerusalem now, I highly doubt fleeing the city to the nearby mountains would save anybody. It's clearly, I strongly believe, fulfilled prophecy.

could be--

I wish no destruction on any nation/people, anywhere--

but I think that some of the Jews who are peaceable are very wise not to live in Israel! These people are preparing for the Messiah--

and I think this is pleasing to God--

Many of the Torah Jews really are preparing for the Messiah--

and many of them are not in Israel--

I don't think God is pleased with people who stick on the label and don't have any change in their hearts--

but that is just my opinion--

and you owe me no apology, and I can understand that you might think that prophesy was fulfilled--

one of the things *I* like about believing in God and believing He has a plan for His children is that . . .

I feel quite confident that someday we will all know the truth, all of it--

:)

Peace--

I'm sorry I didn't get that reference to you earlier, too--

I did think about it; I got caught up in the drama of being part of a family that is going many different directions--

:)

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

double post

by accident. The server is slow

Like all Ron Paul supporters,

I wish the UN had never been created.
But, the geopolitical nation of Israel wasn't dependent on the UN for creation. If the UN hadn't existed, the Jews would have still created their own state. That was after all the main reason the Haganah was terrorizing the British, trying to make them leave.

No, it wasn't fair to the Arabs. But, they were unwilling to live as loyal, equal, Israeli citizens, or as a peaceful, non-citizenized minority, something Ben-Gurion repetitively offered them and they were unable to drive the Jews into the Mediterranean (kind of like militant Native Americans were unwilling to live peaceably under U.S. rule and unable to drive the Europeans into the Atlantic).

I'm a Christian who believes the reestablishment of Israel is a part of God's plan for the future. That doesn't mean I believe we should try to "make prophecy happen." I believe if it's in the Bible, it's going to happen in God's timing regardless of what we do. But, once again, just because God promised to restore the descendants of Abraham and their nation to the former land of Canaan does not mean Israel and its leaders are in favor with God. That won't happen until Christ returns to Earth and the Jews repent nationally for rejecting Him when He came the first time.

I am a Christian, too--

and I don't believe that the nation will be established by temporal powers, but by God--

and those Jews who have refused to go along with the temporal powers are the ones most likely to be there when Jesus Christ is acknowledged as their Lord and Savior, not the ones who have been majoring in warfare--

Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace--

Most of the first Israeli 'settlers' weren't even believing Jews; they came from Russia (many) with a lot of communistic ideas--

and had little patience with Orthodox Jews.

Orthodox Jews are the Jews who really believe in God (Yah-Weh) or G-D--

they are the ones who have large families, are powerfully pro-life and don't believe in spreading war and destruction.

They are the ones who want to live peaceably. Those who do not share those values (who are Jewish) will more than likely cause their own destruction, and the Jews who did not uphold the temporal state--

who believe in the spiritual gathering--

will be here to fall down at His Feet and worship Him--

I've been reading the bible my entire life, and I read it over and over and over again, especially Revelations, but also the minor prophets. I have dissected every possible prophecy--

How many Jews do you know, practicing Jews?

I know very few who practice. I know a lot of Jews; there are some in my family--

most of them have become Christians--

Those who were raised in Orthodox families have mostly become atheists. I think this is interesting. If they are atheists, what is the point of having a land promised to *them* by God?

The one Orthodox-raised family member we have who took regular trips to Israel as a child--

could care less about the country now--

it's just another country, though his children, mostly now Christians, have gone over there--

Satan has a counterfeit for everything. God is not respecter of persons. He will reward those who love Him.

And those who do not love Him will condemn themselves, whatever religious label they put upon themselves--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

The current state of Israel

does not fit he description of the nation that Jesus will restore as prophesied in the OT. Furthermore, all of the Jews aren't even in Israel, much less the descendants of the lost ten tribes that God promised to one day reunite with Judah (the Jews). However, I do believe the reestablishment of the geo-political nation of Israel was God's preparation for the future. That doesn't mean Christians should support all of Israel's actions or leaders, or even insist our country financially and/or militarily support Israel. But, I do think we should support Israel's right to existence.

I agree with your first three lines--

:)

The fact is that Israel does exist. Unlike the Orthodox Jews who call for the peaceable disassembling of Israel, I won't go that far.

But I will continue to support those who protest Israel's treatment of Palestinians, including the many, many Jews around the world and in Israel who don't believe Israel has been playing 'fair'--

I've never even dreamt of destruction coming to the state of Israel; I don't hope for it--

I just can't champion the cause of those who oppress others--

If I had been alive in the 1800s and before when the native Americans were being exterminated in the U.S. territories, I would hope that I would have felt the same way.

I had at least one ancestor who did--

who protested the treatment of the native Americans by the government and settlers and who befriended (closely) an Indian chief--

makes me kind of proud.

I know things still aren't good on reservations, too, and I support those who are trying to right the wrongs--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Fellow Christian you are mistaken!!!

If you want the true biblical history of Israel I highly recommend this video.

http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/606/937-heritage-of-israel/

Description: Tradition holds that those who are born of the sons of Abraham can receive salvation by this merit alone. There are many people who claim to be from the tribes of Israel. This DVD examines this belief in light of Scripture. What was the purpose of Israel? Does salvation come through the Jewish nation? Is salvation even possible through birthright? The meaning of the Jewish feasts is also examined, along with the question of the name of Jesus.

salvation through Abrahamic bloodline?

Salvation through Abrahamic bloodline? Garbage and not according to scripture. Abraham was saved by his faith in the coming Messiah. We are saved by our faith in the Messiah who came. It's all the same. Faith in Jesus=salvation. This is the teaching of the Bible.

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

You're misreading my beliefs big time.

I don't believe descendants of Abraham are saved through their blood relationship to him.

Why use religion as excuse for war?

Actually it is NOT true that "...Hamas has picked a fight with Israel.."

The US just helped Egypt turn over control to the Muslim Brotherhood with this Arab Spring nonsense!! (CIA-manufactured OWS movement)

But here is the real kicker...... caught on video..

Netanyahu admits on video that Israel is the aggressor/oppressor in Gaza but that dumb Americans (80%) will still support him and claim Israel is 'defending' themselves. It's because dumb Americans can't separate Zionism (which is what has the gov't turning on us in the tea party by the way, and why the GOP banishes real conservatives from the party) from Judaism. Glenn Beck is a moron when he promotes it as the same - Zionism is not religion-based... nothing to do with it and our GOP has their head stuck up Zionist butts as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrtuBas3Ipw (around :30 he says it, with subtitles)

Nice eh? (Watch it before it's taken down)

From what I have seen Gazans live in a concentration camp-like situation where they are not even allowed to walk the streets freely.

When are people going to wake up and realize that Zionism (which is NOT Judaism) is running our country for the worse? They ran Romney and did some really nasty things to anyone who even spoke out against his war policies. (That's another story -- Michael Schueur is still feeling the hurt from Romney's controllers for speaking out in favor of non-interventionism)

Note that I am NOT supporting 'terrorists' who are the creation of the governments on both sides, I am saying it's time we stop funding BOTH sides and get the hell out of this middle east mess. The result is we depose duly elected presidents and replace them with the Muslim Brotherhood and other socialist radicals such as in Egypt and currently in Syria where we are actually employing Al Qaeda. We are not sending our boys to die fighting for our freedom, but to spread the elites NEW WORLD ORDER, ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT thanks to these operatives.

REAL JEWS do not support zionism either and were seen protesting in the streets burning their own flag. The whole world is sick of what the USA, Israel and the UN is doing.

Remember, Zionism is NOT anti-Semitic and has nothing to do with Judaism! (Semitic refers to all peoples of that region, not just Jews... not al Jews are semitic, some are of German or Swiss or even French heritage...)

So bottom line is, we should not take sides in these 'wars' and we certainly should not use religion as an excuse to support one country's annihilation of another!

Jane Aitken, 35-Year Veteran Teacher
Ron Paul 2008 Consultant
GOP Woman of the Year 2009
Founder NH Tea Party Coalition (NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY FAKE 2009 GROUP)
Founder USPEINetwork @ Yahoo (Nat'l Edu Activism Group)
Board Coalition of NH Taxpayers

Zionism was inevitable.

The Jews weren't going to all stay in Europe after WWII, especially when hundreds of thousands of their ethnic brethren had migrated to the Promised Land. And Jews and Arab Palestinians weren't living like brothers either before 1947-48. There had been sporadic outbursts of violence between the two ethnic groups for decades. The fact is neither side was willing to live subjugated to the other once the British pulled out. War between the two was inevitable. The victor would get a country. The losers would become refugees. The Jews kicked butt despite being outnumbered, not once but, twice. Hence the existence of the country Israel.

Of course they were living in peace...

... you need to substantiate your opinion, as jews/Christians/Muslims were living in HARMONY until the Zionist movement began. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_ZiVRedU-4

"War...was inevitable. The victor would get a country. The losers would become refugess." Wrong, the loser would be "occupied" and according to the Fourth Geneva Conventions, they are supposed to be treated as such, not subjugated, starved and bombed. War crimes have been occuring BY israel for decades now (and this too will create blowback for them). Crack a history book, please.

"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -John Quincy Adams

I didn't say they weren't living in peace before

the Zionist Movement began, I said they were not living in peace before 1947. Zionism is over Israel won. They have their country and they'll always have their country. Anti-Zionists are beating a dead horse.