44 votes

The Bible does not support Zionism (the geopolitical variety anyway)

My liberty friends, you will hear in heightened tones from your "Christian" friends and family that the bible mandates we " christian/ americans" must support the State of Israel. The bible does not endorse any geo-political entity. Please take time to watch and listen to this relatively short documentary and share it with those who are willing to consider that this long held assumption may in fact be a distortion of biblical truth, by those with narrow political and economic interests. This false mantra(meme) exits in many of my generation (50 and up) and is passed down to the next. Please watch> http://vimeo.com/29901084 Political Zionism is racism and "un-christian" because it requires one to show favoritism, which God does not do. **Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.....
**Acts 10:33-35



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Most Palestinians also did not live in Israel in 1948

The vast, vast majority (millions) of Palestineans lived in Jordan, Syria and Egypt when Israel was founded.

When those nations turned their machine guns on the Palestinians to drive them out in the 50s and 60s, it was Israel who accepted them.

I just read the second part

I just read the second part of your post. What ridiculous nonsense! If you are referring to the massacre of Palestinians in Jordan, that took place in September of 1970 and only involved a fraction of Palestinians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

What other nation "turned their guns" on Palestinians? They are full citizens in some of the surrounding Arab nations like Jordan, and refugees in others like Lebanon.

I can't believe you are so ignorant that you really think the vast majority of Palestinians were willingly living in the surrounding nations in 1948! What a moron and an embarrassment to our movement. You are factually incorrect! If a majority lived outside of what is now Palestine and Israel, it is only because of the Nakba, in which 750,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from Israel via terror and massacres causing them to flee during the Israeli war of independence! Surely you do not mean to say that the majority of Palestinians pre 1948 lived outside of Palestine or what is now Israel?

I didn't say anything about "willingly".

Nice attempt to spin the conversation.

I said WERE LIVING. Why or how they were living there was not stated.

Both Syria and Egypt also militarily forced the Palestineans out of their nations. Who took them in? Israel.

TODAY, they may be citizens possibly, but not at the time in question.

You are truly a spinmeister, very much like the mainstream media, but likely for other purposes, likely for profit to attempt to sell books filled with nonsense to the gullible.

And yes it IS TRUE that in 1948 the MAJORITY of Palestinians did not live in what is geographically known today as Israel.

Dude, you can't be serious.

Dude, you can't be serious. You are conveniently failing to mention the possible reason why more Palestinians lived outside of what is now Palestine and Israel: the Nakba! 750,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from what is now Israel during the 1948 war. Ever heard of Deir Yassin massacre by Zionist soldiers? If you want to know more, please read Norman Finkelstein's discussion of this stupid notion that Palestinians are Syrian or Jordanian or Egyptian.

I can be and AM.

The discussion AT HAND, before you tried to change it was

Is Palestine the homeland of Palestians on the basis of DNA.

The point was that if that is the basis of the claim, then Jews and Palestinians have equal claim.

It was an academic, scientific and factually based civil discussion before you jumped in with your rabid personal beliefs and feelings.

Your assertion comes from the

Your assertion comes from the thoroughly discredited Joan Peter's book, From Time Immemorial. Norman Finkelstein, a Jewish American political scientist and son of Holocaust survivors, destroyed her reputation and her case in his senior dissertation. He showed in his book, the title of which I don't remember, how she created a false case and misinterpreted data. The Palestinians are NOT Syrian or Jordanian, or Egyptian. Of course, there is always some mixture, but they are largely from the Holy Land and not the surrounding nations.

Ah, no.

It does not come from a book. It comes from living through it, personally knowing the people and from knowing recent history intimately. Nice try though.

LOL

In society, we don't prove

In society, we don't prove things anecdotally, but through scientific data. Norman Finkelstein thoroughly proved that notions like the one you spout are complete bs. Joan Peters got it wrong and so have you. This is why there is no justice in Palestine. Too many Americans are just as ignorant as you.

No kidding.

So, you read a book. Hillary Clinton wrote a lot of books too. Do you believe them. "I read a book" isn't proof of anything either.

Further, you stated my assertions came from a book. Your assertion was false.

I mean you can rail against personally evidenced and historically documented fact all you want, it doesn't change anything.

At least I provided a source

At least I provided a source for my assertions.

Shhh, not too loud.

The Israel-haters on here might wanna lynch you for admitting Israel may not be 100% evil.

I don't hate

I don't hate Isarel. I am just tired of people saying we need to support Israel for 'Biblical' reasons. This is bad theology and bad politics. Too many Americans have grown up in the Dispensational tradition and blindly support Israel. Think for yourself. Stop reading Tim LaHaye and read your Bible.

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

I'm not getting anything from

Tim LaHaye. I believe that when God promised to bless those that bless Abraham's descendants and curse those that curse Abraham's descendants through Isaac (and ultimately through Jacob) that that promise did not end with Christ. I support the existence of the Jewish state of Israel in Palestine and believe its recreation was predicted in multiple places in the Old Testament. That doesn't mean I support Netanyahu, the Likud Party, or all of Israel's government's actions towards their neighbors (particularly the ridiculous Gaza blockade). I don't support giving them foreign aid, but, I don't think we as a country should pressure them to give up any of their land (including Gaza and the West Bank) either.

In the present day Israel,

In the present day Israel, Arabs were being kicked out of their homes in the early 1920's, correct?

You may be correct.

Are you speaking about non-Jewish Palestinians?

Again, that may be correct, I don't know. But again the majority of them lived outside of the territory of what is now known as Israel.

Does that excuse anything? No. But calling it a "homeland" when the vast majority lived outside of the "homeland" territory is kind of silly.

In that respect Palestinians and Jews would have an equal claim to the land.

what ignorance! how

what ignorance! how embarrassing!

Documented historical fact unrefuted by Palestineans

is ignorant?

LOL

But it was disputed by a Jew,

But your notion that the Palestinians are actually Syrian or Jordanian has been thoroughly disproven by a Jew, Norman Finkelstein. He is the go to guy for how Joan Peters got it wrong claiming that the Palestinians were other than who they claim to be. Glenn Beck and others just failed to get the memo that her work was discredited. You really need to study this more in depth. I recommend starting here: http://mondoweiss.net/2011/12/david-remnick-erases-norman-fi... Finkelstein is not the only scholar to prove your notion false, but he was the key one.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Douglas%20Carpente... for another takedown of the ridiculous notion that the Palestinians are Syrian or Jordanian.

Oh yay, "A Jew".

Where did I say that Palestinians are Syrian or Jordanian.

Nice attempt at spin.

"A Jew!" Nice appeal to authority.

LOL

The "vast majority" did not live "outside"

the territory of what is now called israel.
http://www.worldliteraturetoday.com/2012/may/no-ordinary-pla...

I'm sure you've seen this map of the slow infiltration and settlement expansion from what Palestine was to how Palestine is today. Power and greed is in play here, nothing even remotely related to the bible. And the one thing you are correct about is that all inhabitants have an EQUAL CLAIM to the land!

"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -John Quincy Adams

You didn't address the subject.

Any of the white or green territory on that map is not in current day Jordan, Syria or Egypt. You did not refute the assertion that the vast majority of Palestinians lived outside of the whole of any of the white and green area of the maps under the link you posted.

It is true that in 1948, the vast majority of Palestinians did NOT live in any of the white or green areas on those maps, but lived in what is present day Syria, Jordan and Egypt.

Yes, let me walk you through this..

You assert: They cannot call Israel their “homeland” because they haven’t lived there since 1948.

I assert: Because they have been forced off their ancestral land does not cancel their claim and right to their ancestral "homeland".

One may still call their rightful ancestral land their "homeland" even though they have been forced off their ancestral land. Is that clearer for you?

"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -John Quincy Adams

I did not dispute that.

I asserted a fact that
a) the majority of Palestineans did not live in what is known today as Israel
b) in 1948 the majority of Palestineans lived in what is known today as Jordan, Syria and Egypt
c) when Jordan, Syria and Egypt expelled the Palestianians living there (the majority of all Palestineans everywhere) who literally machined gunned down Palestianians until they left, it was Israel who took them in.

I did not assert who had "more claim" to a homeland.

But, ironically, by your own standard written by you here above:
"One may still call their rightful ancestral land their "homeland" even though they have been forced off their ancestral land. Is that clearer for you?"

Why would that standard then NOT apply equally to the Jews?

I can't believe how ignorant

I can't believe how ignorant you are. Jordan killed or expelled only a small number of Palestinians relative to the rest of the population there. In fact, Jordan today is majority Palestinian! Please provide evidence for your assertion that these nations "machine gunned" down Palestinians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan Please read to know what actually happened.

Jordan is today majority Palestinian?

Using the source you like to cite:

The Jordan National Census for the year 2004 was released on 1 October of the same year, According to the census, Jordan had a population of 5,100,981.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan
According to UNRWA, Jordan was home to 1,951,603 Palestinian refugees in 2008, most of them Jordanian citizens

So much for your "majority".

In terms of sub-ethnic

In terms of sub-ethnic groups, yes, they are the majority. Arabs are not one monolithic people. You have yet to provide a source for any of your ridiculous and racist claims about Palestinians.

http://www.meforum.org/3121/jordan-is-palestinian

"Despite having held a comprehensive national census in 2004, the Jordanian government would not divulge the exact percentage of Palestinians in the kingdom. Nonetheless, the secret that everyone seems to know but which is never openly admitted is that Palestinians make up the vast majority of the population."

"In his 2011 book, Our Last Best Chance, King Abdullah claimed that the Palestinians make up a mere 43 percent. The U.S. State Department estimates that Palestinians make up "more than half" of Jordanians[1] while in a 2007 report, written in cooperation with several Jordanian government bodies, the London-based Oxford Business Group stated that at least two thirds of Jordan's population were of Palestinian origin.[2] Palestinians make up the majority of the population of Jordan's two largest cities, Amman and Zarqa, which were small, rural towns before the influx of Palestinians arrived in 1967 after Jordan's defeat in the Six-Day War."

I don't think all of the Palestinians in Jordan are counted as "refugees." Still awaiting any references to back up any of the typical anti-Palestinian claims you have made. I take this very seriously, cause I know Americans are extremely ignorant about the Palestinians, thus the lack of interest in their suffering.

It's pretty sad

how people who call themselves Ron Paul supporters down vote verifiable fact and history as if it will change anything.

Sorry, but all the downvotes in the world can't change the facts.

You have yet to spout one

You have yet to spout one fact. Here is factual info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/12/david-remnick-erases-norman-fi... on Finkelstein's takedown of your discredited theory

That is factually incorrect

pre-1948 the modern state of Israel was part of Jordan

LOL.

Even if what you write is true, which it's not, but for the sake of argument, let's say it is, even then, the VAST majority of Palestinians in 1948 lived OUTSIDE of the territory which is today recognized as Israel, Jerusalem, Gaza and Golan, and INSIDE of what is today recognized as Jordan, Syria and Egypt.

However, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did not want the palestinians so they literally machine gunned them down until they left and went to Palestine/Israel.

Yassir Arafat's office was even located in Amman, Jordan until the Jordanians threatened him and forced him to leave after machine gunning several tens of thousands of palestinians in Jordan.