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The Bible does not support Zionism (the geopolitical variety anyway)

My liberty friends, you will hear in heightened tones from your "Christian" friends and family that the bible mandates we " christian/ americans" must support the State of Israel. The bible does not endorse any geo-political entity. Please take time to watch and listen to this relatively short documentary and share it with those who are willing to consider that this long held assumption may in fact be a distortion of biblical truth, by those with narrow political and economic interests. This false mantra(meme) exits in many of my generation (50 and up) and is passed down to the next. Please watch> http://vimeo.com/29901084 Political Zionism is racism and "un-christian" because it requires one to show favoritism, which God does not do. **Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.....
**Acts 10:33-35




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I don't know everything either!

I don't know everything either! Not even close! But I did just write a paper on the 144,000. I have three observations for you to consider about this passage in Revelation 7.

First, why is the list of the 12 tribes wrong in v. 5-8? There is no tribe of Dan listed, and it includes Manasseh, which is not a tribe of Israel. It also leaves out Ephraim, which is not a tribe. So Joshua and Samson, both from Ephraim, will not be in heaven? Could it be that this list is not about Jews, but is symbolic of the complete number of God's redeemed?

Second, it says in v. 4 that John 'heard' the number of the sealed. How do you hear a specific number? Could it perhaps be symbolic? In the culture of the day numbers were significant. 12 tribes, 12 apostles, this symbolizes completeness. Twelve, or multiples thereof, is a number of completeness/fullness in the book of Revelation -- much like the number seven. This number may signify the complete number of Jewish believers in the end times -- joining the complete number of saved Gentiles, cf. Romans 11:12, 25-27 -- all of which make up the one Church of Jesus Christ.

Third, after John 'hears' the number in verse 9 it says that he 'sees' them. And this time it is a "great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages.' This is the same group as two verses earlier! 144,000 was John's way of symbolically describing the complete number of God's redeemed from every tribe and nation.

My point is, maybe you're wrong, and that's ok. I'm willing to be wrong as well. But, you have to convince me from Scripture, not from a youtube video! (which I did watch by the way).

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

OK sarz

Did God not blind the Jews to the truth of Jesus?

Have you ever tried to have a conversation with an OJ (Orthodox Jew) about the salvation by the blood of Jesus?
or
How often do you see a Rabbi preaching the salvation by faith in Jesus Christ?

Am I to assume the 12 tribes have absolutely nothing to do with the Jews?

Hey, I'm just happy that it will be a "great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages."

All ABOARD!

the bible koran torah

all written by 2000 year old sexually repressed haters -think for yourself and watch the walls become sand beneath your feet...

Government is supposed to protect our freedom, our property, our privacy, not invade it. Ron Paul 2007

what are you talking about?

I am actually curious as to what you mean by sexually repressed please explain.

solomon had like a thousand wives and ten thousand kids. Hes the one who largly wrote proverbs, Ecclesiastes and song of solomon. Frankly if anything he was over sexed. Just saying.

Frankly one of the few authers of the Bible who was not married (paul), said that if you are married you should not defraud one another in your physical relationship, and that if you can not contain you should get married (I cor 7).

As for haters writing the Bible. most of the authers never fought in wars like moses, or solomon, or paul. In fact jerimiah told israel that they should surrender and not fight babylon at all.

Yes

I am not here to discuss religion, but I do want to inform the Liberty community about the religious reality surrounding Israel. I have a Master's in Biblical Studies and know both Hebrew and Greek (the Biblical variety). So I'm a bit of an expert in this. Unfortunately most 'christians' in America believe that the nation state of Israel is extremely important today for Christians. This comes out of the Dispensational movement which now dominates main-stream American Christianity. This school of thought is very new, in historical terms (only since the early 1800's), and basically views all prophetic writings in the Old and New Testament as literal, even if this is contrary to the genre of literature. Because of this literal view they see the writings about 'Israel' to mean the political state of Israel that now exists. So, they conclude that God is still working with them in a special way, and that as good Christians we should protect them and fight for their right to have the 'Promised Land' (note: this is a gross over-simplification of this view).

The alternative conservative Christian view is that the 'Israel' talked about in these writings is now the Church and that the 'Promised Land' finds its fulfillment in Heaven, not in a dusty patch of earth in the Middle East. This view holds that Israel, true Israel, is simply those of faith (see Galatians 3:7, the story of Rahab, and Ruth for examples). This view is held by Reformed and Presbyterians mostly. This view concludes that the political nation of Israel should be thought of and treated no differently than any other country in the world. Reformed and Presbyterians also tend to be more Liberty-inclined than other Christian groups in America. Oh and by the way, Ron Paul is reformed and this is the view he holds. Ron Paul rarely discusses religion because he is not that kind of man, he never ever ever used his personal faith as propaganda for his political career.

I bring this up for informational purposes. Not all Christians, even conservative evangelical Christians, blindly support Israel out of some religious zeal. There are Christians who believe other things about Israel, even Christians who believe in the Bible as God's inerrant and infallible word, like Ron Paul.

So....now you know. Like anything, stereotypes and generalizations really do not work.

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

If we are called to go into all the world with good news

then who as a people should we not go to, or worse; why should we hate to the point of supporting their injury and death, those we called to preach to? Since God gave us the ministry of reconciliation, why are we so often deceived by false teachers into neglecting, or even rejecting, the clear reading of holy scripture on these crucial issues?

"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
*Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
*Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved." - 1 Corinthians 10:31-33

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
*To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
*Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
*For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." - 2 Corinthians 5:18-21

"Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
*For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing." - 1 Peter 3:16-17

"But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
*Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf." - 1 Peter 4:15-16

"Christian" Zionists cannot reconcile their position biblically; and ought to be ashamed. They falsely justify murdering, thieving, evil doing, AND serving as busybodies in everybody's matters, everywhere in the world! They cannot glorify God while acting as though these verses shouldn't be applied to themselves.

The greatest hindrance to the spread of the true gospel of Christ is that good folks too easily follow "false apostles" (2 Cor. 11:13) and "them which say they are Jews, and are not" (Rev. 2:9), when they teach us that God had written words that He had not, so that we do what is otherwise obvious that we should not!

Thank you, Steve, for a great thread posting!

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

Question

What would normal Americans do if Mexican freedom figters fire rockets towards USA wanting Texas back? Sit in shelters for years as Israelis did?

Few realize that inside the Israeli borders there are "Israeli Arabs" who are 25%+ of Israeli population. They have equal rights and do not want to leave Israel. "Palestinians" (P sound is not in Arabic alphabet btw) and their leadership do not recognize Israel's right to exist. So they eat sh{i}t for so many years.

Back to Bible - a man cannot kill a god, any god (small god, tiny angel, demigod, part of the Trinity, etc.) So I would revisit the dogma of Christianity instead of worshiping the dead Jewish man daily.

"men" (man) didn't kill Jesus Christ--

He gave up His life--

and was resurrected. He had the capacity to do that, because He was half mortal/half God.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

The trick was

Many Jews had witnessed his death. When few Jewish Apostles and Jesus' Jewish relatives told others they saw some light and had dreams of resurrections, Jews were not impressed.

Would a normal person be impressed with such a story today about any rabbi? In fact, Jews had many false Messiahs, the famous one was not Jesus, but Shabatai Zvi. The point gentiles do not understand is that concept of Messiah (Christ) is uniquely Jewish. BUT it was never to equate Messiah to god. When some Jews went out to convert non-Jews, the task was not easy:

- diet was scarce, so Kosher was luxury in many places.
- adults could not survive circumcision without hygiene.
- concept "why people have to pray to Messiah when god was still available" resulted in Trinity rule 200 years after the Christ.
- then the nail into the coffin came in a form of another question: "but Messiah meant liberation of Israel and the end of earthly suffering?" The orginized church was clever to pacify the folks for 2000 years with the simple answer - he is coming back, again, soon. The first time was a tease.

I am curious.

Where did you learn that "When few Jewish Apostles and Jesus' Jewish relatives told others they saw some light and had dreams of resurrections, Jews were not impressed."? I have never heard that story before.

That the Messianic expectations of the Jewish people at the time of Jesus were for a conquering King there is no doubt and this is made clear in the Gospels. It is probably why Judas betrayed Jesus and why his disciples were dismayed and hid from the Jewish leaders after His crucifixion. It was only after His resurrection when He appeared to His disciples that He fully opened the scriptures relating to His mission to their understanding. He moved between the heavenly and earthly dimensions freely yet fully and completely having united them in Himself which was the purpose of His coming to Earth from Heaven.

He showed Himself to those who had believed in Him several times over a period of forty days and altogether to five hundred different people. He gave them many proofs of His physical reality although in a higher dimension. He did not show Himself to any of the leaders who had rejected Him and ordered His death. During His time of teaching He always refused to meet their expectations because they had a very low view of what they were to expect. He had given them many clear prophetic fulfilments of who He was but they failed to understand because their eyes were blinded by their false traditions. They still are today.

Jesus was a unique being, the very first perfect Man fully in the image of God. He is the firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of many brethren. He is the Way in the sense that He shows us what we are destined to become. He is the Truth inasmuch as He reveals the nature and character of God our Father, the meaning of our existence and the plan and purpose of His Father and our Father for the Creation. He is the Life because in Him and in Him alone we will enjoy our full inheritance, our Promised Land, the fullness of divine Life for the ages and for eternity in the New Creation which He has inaugurated. That is the good news of the KIngdom of God which is for all mankind.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Actually...

...it was not just a few that He appeared to after the resurrection (I Cor 15:6). He appeared to even hundreds at a time.

You're right in a sense...the bodily death of a person doesn't kill their immortal spirit/soul. We are all immortals in that sense, and will be raised with new bodies as was Christ.

I agree--

.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Actually..

I'm pretty sure if the bible instructs the killing of gay people it also instructs a lot of of violence vs other groups of people.

I had fun watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxT_EOO4BTg&feature=g-subs-u

There are a whole slew of reasons why Christians

shouldn't follow Zionism, but especially when you trully understand the true religion of Judaism. Conservatively, 95% of Christians fail to realize, Judaism in not just the following of the Torah aka Old Testement, but it also includes the Babylonian Talmud or the Oral Writings of the Pharisees. All Christians and even non-Christians should watch the video presentation by Rev Ted Pike, where he presents the Truth, right from their own books and Encyclopedia Judaica references to back it up. I'm not saying you should hate followers of Judaism, but you need to understand how followers of the Talmud view the Gentiles, or what many call the Goy (which translates as being like cattle). By the way, Rev Pike is not just some run of the mill preacher, his father was the main Minister responsible for convincing Reagan to create 'The National Day of Prayer', which at the present should be every day for repentence of the evil deeds our countries government commits daily. What most people also don't know do to the revisionists is, that when the Puritans colonized America, they called the the New Jerusalem of Christ. Christ believed His Holy Land was where ever His believers live. http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/11/the-whole-sordi...

For those interested

In the true biblical Israel, this is a great lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QYQO9GsDD8

A good way to defend your freedoms: www.libertymagazine.org

Even if it did

The Bible is not listed in our constitution as a document from which we should be managing foreign policy. Neither are the Koran, The Bhagdavad Gita, the Upanishads or the Lord of the Rings.

Cyril's picture

Yes, and whoever truly

Yes, and whoever truly understands WHAT Liberty exactly IS, and WHAT exactly the Bill of Rights IS all about...

... he/she will be prone to NOT EVEN give too much credit to the very concept of "Foreign Policy" as being a useful or defendable prerogative of the nation's government.

Likewise, where does the Bill of Rights talk about an "Economic Policy" ?

Or "Social Policy" ?

Or "Education Policy" ?

See where I am going ?

The INDIVIDUAL is the being who matters.

Groups ? Classes ? ... These are for the rent-seeking, sweat sucking planners and their spreadsheets to put entire nations' people's lives in.

So far, the horrendous latter are STILL winning.

Read : enslaving us. Better yet :

They are busy ENGINEERING us to become the HAPPY, OBEDIENT slaves and commodities meant to praise them, The State, who PRODUCES NOTHING but only feed on our sweat and miserable "lives" they plan for us.

Peace.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Joel Skousen in a brief comment proves your well taken point

Watch what he says about Israel and start at 56:32 here:

http://www.infowars.com/how-to-survive-apocalyptic-events-wi...

-Bloatedtoad

I think this is a

I think this is a humanitarian issue... Not a religious one.

an idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government

Questionable Source

I watched the video this afternoon, and then hunted around the website. If I understand correctly from what I read (link following) The Old Testament is discounted by the author, which causes me to question his message. While I do not agree with unconstitutional wars, wars of aggression, and preemptive strikes, I now do not believe this man is presenting an unbiased truth.
I know nothing of the God the author refers to and I stand by the writings of the Old Testament as God-breathed Scripture.
-----------------
I found at

http://whtt.org/newwhtt/main.php?nid=10191&ncateid=1 :

"Some have written to us that Passover is "prophetic" of Jesus, contradicting my statement is that the Seder celebration and the Last Supper have nothing in common except the presence of food. Professional Christians do not always see the difference between Jesus’ teachings about love and commitment to others, and the self-serving story of passover from the ancient "Hebrew" writers. Passover is about a bloody tale of brute force and God’s wrath being inflicted upon everyone but the Israelites.

The Hebrew writers provided us with Egyptians who are monsters and a God of unimaginable ferocity, who seems to glory in retribution, and who loves only the Hebrews out of all of mankind. Could God not have simply warmed the heart of Yul Brynner (Ramses in The Ten Commandments) to let the "Hebrews" go? Why all the plagues, if not for drama sake? Why would God need to torment the Egyptians with boils, blood, frogs and suffocation of all their firstborns? Are these Egyptians not the same civilization that, a few generation before, took in and fed Joseph and his scheming brothers when they were about to starve?

The Hebrew "God" is one about whom Cecil B. DeMille could fashion a three-hour movie! But He is not the God Jesus calls "father." Has God transformed himself, like putting on a new outfit? Or are the Hebrew scriptures works of imagination and exaggeration, telling of a ruthless, violent God who loves only them. "
--------------

So what about...

...all of Jesus' desciples and apostles being Jews, as well as Jesus himself being Jewish and descendant of King David on both sides of his family as well as the Last Supper occurring on the night of Passover.

No link to Passover? The blood of the lamb and all?

John 1:29 KJV The next day

John 1:29 KJV The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

I can read too.

What's your point with respect to our exchange above?

Thanks.

This is going to sound a

This is going to sound a little stupid, but I should have asked you what you meant by your first comment to me because I didn’t understand where you were coming from. But I didn't so instead I just picked up on your last sentence:
“No link to Passover? The blood of the lamb and all?”

and gave a scripture verse to support it.

But to explain the verse I gave in support of your last sentence:

When John the Baptist identified Jesus as the Lamb of God, the Jews present knew the significance of a sacrificial lamb. The blood of the sacrificial lamb at the original pass over in Egypt was applied to the door posts of the home and the death angel passed over. Thus when the blood of the Lamb of God is applied to a Believer's heart thru faith in his (Jesus’s) death, burial, and resurrection for the forgiveness of sin, the death angel passes over as the Believer no longer bears the eternal penalty of sin because the Lamb of God takes away sin.

Sorry I did not take the time to ask you what you meant, and I still really don’t know. Would you like to explain your initial point? Maybe I could do better than just throw a verse in your court :)

The blood of the lamb

saved the israelites in Egypt from the angel of death, a story related every year at every passover sedar table around the world.

But you illustrate my point. How in the world can someone talk about passover or it's link or non-link to the last supper if you dont even know what passover is?

I am trying to understand

Are you saying that I am doing that: Talking about passover when I do not know what it is?

I would like to understand what you are saying to me. Can you elaborate? I may be a little slow, but I think I can pick up your point if you wish to explain it to me.

It's too much for an online bubble.

Passover celebrates deliverance from bondage.

The last supper is the milestone where it is explained how deliverance from bondage is now deliverance from the bondage of sin and death through Christ.

The blood of the lamb saved the Israelites in Egypt from the angel of death. Agnus Dei (the lamb of God), Jesus Christ, takes away the sins of the world through the sacrifice of His blood: "This is my blood, which will be given up for you."

The last supper occurred on Passover. All in attendance were Jewish, including Jesus Christ, who celebrated Passover every single year in the same manner on the same day. This time just with a bit (understatement) more revelation and a miracle of transsubstantiation.

Linguistically speaking "Pesach" (Hebrew for Passover) and Pascua (Pascha, Paschal, etc., i.e. the word for Easter in all other Indo-European languages except English) are perfect linguistic cognates and refer to the same day and date originally.

Honestly, there volumes worth of information which cannot be related through bubble replies on a website.

The main point is that speculation without information can and does cause a lot of damage. One should not engage in it. It spreads ignorance. I appreciate that you are inquisitive.

Questions or Speculation

My point is that the host/main speaker in the video says the God of the Old Testament is not the God of the New Testament. The host of the video says "that the Seder celebration and the Last Supper have nothing in common except the presence of food."

I outlined some of what I do not agree with the host of the video in http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2838114 His words are in quotes following his website address in my comment link.

I question the veracity of the video because the host’s website contains material that I find to be false in my understanding.

My inquisitiveness is the way I learn. I am trying to learn whether Zionism is evil. It is a new concept to me. Until I have a source that I can trust I am still going to struggle with the concept. I cannot trust the author of the video so I said so. I am not questioning the Old Testament link from Passover to Jesus. I am questioning what the host of the video says about that subject. Therefore I question his information on Zionism.

Your words:

"The main point is that speculation without information can and does cause a lot of damage. One should not engage in it. It spreads ignorance. I appreciate that you are inquisitive."

I want to know truth. I am teachable. I do not think I know it all, but I question everything until I am satisfied as far as I can be. I am not speculating - I am questioning. If false information is provided I am going to question it until I know better one way or the other, if possible.

So far I cannot understand completely whether I should be against Zionism. I am not for it, I am not agaist it. I don't know enough.

...

Then I agree with you on the video.

Because his comments on Pesach and the Paschal supper having no relationship besides food being present is utter nonsense.

As far as Zionism goes, there are good and bad people in every nation and every movement.

There are good and bad Methodists, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Zionists, bankers, bakers, Americans, Mexicans, Irish, etc.

There are people who just want to be left alone all over the world and there are people who just will not leave them alone.

There are people who want power for power's sake and there are people who just want to live good lives.

I don't think religion or geographic location has much to do with it. Wasn't that Christ's message as well? We are all children of God and all can come back to God through Christ?

I appreciate the words you

I appreciate the words you wrote back. They are so true and grant a great perspective. People just want to be left alone. Can you imagine if everyone lived by the words in the Sermon on the Mount? We would all be falling over one another to do good to each other!

Your words:
"We are all children of God and all can come back to God through Christ?"

This may be semantics, but I would say it in these words:

We are all THE CREATION of God and all can come back to God through Christ.

This is why I say that:

Jesus speaking to the religious leaders of his day: John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
-------------
I think it is important to note that Jesus called some people children of the devil.
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Some people say Zionism is a fulfillment of End Time Prophecy. Some say it is not. I am trying to understand about it. There are Jews against Zionism that spoke here: http://www.dailypaul.com/256465/ahmadinejad-embraces-the-jew...

I wrote this because I saw that video and some others: http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2764794

I have not had the pleasure of being awake very long. There is still much for me to learn as I try to untangle the web against Liberty for my own mind’s peace.

I appreciate you writing back to me. I would not want you to think that I authored the words that the host of the video authored. When you see the ID bear, I want you to see a Friend in Liberty.

...