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The Bible does not support Zionism (the geopolitical variety anyway)

My liberty friends, you will hear in heightened tones from your "Christian" friends and family that the bible mandates we " christian/ americans" must support the State of Israel. The bible does not endorse any geo-political entity. Please take time to watch and listen to this relatively short documentary and share it with those who are willing to consider that this long held assumption may in fact be a distortion of biblical truth, by those with narrow political and economic interests. This false mantra(meme) exits in many of my generation (50 and up) and is passed down to the next. Please watch> http://vimeo.com/29901084 Political Zionism is racism and "un-christian" because it requires one to show favoritism, which God does not do. **Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.....
**Acts 10:33-35

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Nice catch @bear

The video itself is a reasonable exposition of the Christian Zionist movement and I speak as a former Christian Zionist although generally a sceptical one regarding the "teaching" of many of the so called "prophecy teachers" like Hal Lindsay and Grant Jeffrey the latter of whom taught every week at the church I attended before he became famous.

Having said that however it does give a very truncated version of the lineage of the Dispensationalist doctrine and focuses on one of the later adopters Cyrus Scofield who was admittedly one of the more energetic promoters of the doctrine. Otherwise the doctrine has a fairly respectable provenance dating back to the Chilean Jesuit priest Manuel Diaz Lacunza who wrote under the pseudonym Rabbi Juan Josefat Ben-Ezra.


The portion of the website you linked to was indeed an eye-opener and reveals that Mr. Carlson belongs to that branch of the Christian faith that has thrown out the baby with the bathwater. I believe that there are many Baptist churches who share this odd belief that the Old Testament is somehow not inspired and reveals another God than the pre-incarnate Lord Jesus Christ. This does tend to reduce the credibility of the video although from my own studies it does seem to be reasonably accurate especially with regard to the development of the Scofield Reference Bible that has indeed been very influential in the Christian churches of North America.

It puzzles me that those who assert the Old Testament is not the inspired Word of God appear to have ignored the apostle Paul's clear teaching that "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness". (2 Timothy 3:16) The apostle was of course referring to the only scriptures of that time, the Tanach, the Old Testament. In addition to this the Lord Jesus Himself often referred to the scriptures of the Old Testament referring to them as unbreakable, i.e. authoritative. This was because He inspired them.

The Feast of Passover is of course fulfilled in the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. What on Earth does Mr Carlson believe the sacrificial system of ancient Israel foreshadowed? The Lord Jesus Christ came to fulfil the Law NOT to destroy it as Mr. Carlson appears to believe. (Matthew 5:17)

You were correct to draw attention to this @bear. It certainly casts a shadow on whatever else Mr. Carlson has to say. Pity.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Still trying to Learn

I had never heard the term Zionism until about 2 years ago. All of my Christian life I have been taught to love the Nation of Israel, and that their returned residence in the Promised Land is fulfillment of prophecy.

This topic is something I am still trying to understand. I have never been taught to look forward to Armageddon so that Christ would return. As a matter of fact it is my understanding that that war will be at the end of the millennial reign of Christ. I did however see this video that was very eye opening to me: http://www.dailypaul.com/256465/ahmadinejad-embraces-the-jew...

Causing me to write: http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2764794

But I am still searching out the truth and would like to have sources from someone who is trustworthy. I also did not think at the very end of the video where the woman could barely make eye contact with the camera was convincing, but that is just IMO.

I also question whether someone who rejects God in the Old Testament knows God in the New Testament. I don’t care if he is a Baptist or what he calls himself. If he has thrown the baby out with the bathwater, then he has neither. He is a false prophet IMO.

This Zionism stuff is still very confusing to me, and I can also see a side where enemies, or so called, could try to separate the US from allies, so called. I say so called because I am still searching. Any help you can offer would be appreciated.

War, not only is a racket, but war also brings disinformation and there seems to be plenty of it.


The Heritage of Israel....

Here is a trustworthy source with links and other historic/biblical information.


The best place to begin.

My own journey away from Christian Zionism began in 1998 when I discovered the level of corruption involved amongst the Israeli and Palestinian leadership. I decided to begin to find out more about the end times prophecies that are accepted as truth in the evangelical churches.

Like you I never prayed for Armageddon but the peace of Israel and accepted that the founding of Israel was the fulfilment of bible prophecy. I didn't fully accept much of the other claims around the doctrine not being a prophecy aficionado and I began to suspect that we were making the same mistake in this regard as the first century Jews who expected a conquering Messiah to set them free from the Roman Empire i.e a purely physical fulfilment.

After some intensive reading and praying I came across the Kingdom teachings that answered all the questions I had had my entire Christian life. One book that changed my thinking was this one:


Then by the same author this book about the Palestinian question under discussion here:


I then discovered many other teachings relating to the revelations given to the Church in 1948-1950 during what came to be called the Latter Rain. One of the men who was actually there at the time was George Warnock who is now 95 and has a website with his writings here:


He wrote a seminal book called "The Feast of Tabernacles" that was one of the many revelations given during the Latter Rain. You have likely never heard of this because the churches mostly rejected the revelations because I suspect they were too committed to the State of Israel that was being set up violently at the same time.

My wife and I have been reading a series of monthly articles on the book of Revelation for the past six years and believe that these teachings are the true meaning of that book. If you are interested in reading them they are now at month 131 and the first one is here:


The teacher is J. Preston Eby who has committed to writing about the Kingdom of God and sonship revelations entirely although he was once a pastor. He does not sell his writings and they are all available free online as are all the others I have linked to. The Latter Rain never became a denomination and there are probably hundreds of thousands all over the world who have left the institutional churches as we have and are seeking to know and worship the Father in the way He would desire, in Spirit and in Truth.

You can read these teachings and you will know by the Spirit if they are true or not.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Have you read this man's work

Have you read this man's work on Romans 5? http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/pauls-epi...

Is this what you believe?

"Just as "death reigns" because of Adam, and not because of our own personal sins, so also does mankind benefit from the life-giving act of the last Adam. The FACT that all of God's enemies have been granted immortal life is based upon the righteous act of Christ, not our individual choices or personal faith.

Over and beyond that, men are certainly judged for their individual acts (sin). The point is that such individual judgments are subordinate to the Headship work of Jesus Christ. Personal sins cannot overpower or negate Christ's accomplishment on the Cross. All men will indeed come into full reconciliation with God, even though most will have to be disciplined at the Great White Throne judgment for personal sins. Only by justifying faith can a person avoid having to pay for his own sins at the Judgment.

This is not to imply that any man can succeed in paying the full debt incurred by his own personal sins. Such a feat will be impossible. For this reason, all unjustified sinners in that day will remain under judgment until the Creation Jubilee, when the Law sets all men free in spite of any remaining debt.

Hence, to avoid the judgment of God, one must go through the prescribed path of justification by faith in Christ and His work on the cross, as well as His resurrection."


This is the teaching of the apostle Paul and reveals the sovereignty of God and the all encompassing effect of the sacrificial work of Christ.

The scriptures are spiritual and must be understood by the Holy Spirit. The meaning of "the Great White Throne" (Revelation 20:11) for example must be understood spiritually. It isn't a gigantic throne coloured white floating in space somewhere. One must allow the Holy Spirit to show you what is meant by this symbolic picture which can be understood from other scriptures throughout the Bible as can all such symbolic language. e.g. "Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; his greatness no-one can fathom." (Psalm 145:3)

If you find this teaching hard to accept it is because it is so contrary to the doctrines of the institutional churches which have been teaching the traditions of men for so many centuries. There have always been a minority of believers throughout the centuries who have understood the real meaning of the evangel of Jesus Christ but the organised church has largely been interested in political power and control of the faithful. Think about it. This is exactly what happened to the original people called by God and formed by Him into a nation at Mount Sinai. Only a remnant of these ever kept faith with God and truly worshipped Him.

When Jesus came from Heaven, the one and only Son of God and revealed Himself to the leaders of the Jews by His many works that were foreshadowed in all the scriptures so they had no excuse they rejected Him and the priests ordered His crucifixion. Can you see now why the revelations given at the time of the Latter Rain were rejected by the established churches? How could they turn round to their congregations and tell them that many of the central doctrines of their church that they had believed in some cases for hundreds of years were just carnal nonsense invented by men? One thing is certain, human nature has not changed since our first father was expelled from the Garden.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I take these words in 2

I take these words in 2 Corinthians 11 as a dire warning: 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached , or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him…13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I take these words in Revelation literally that there will be those who are not found in the book of life who will not inherit all sonship and who will have their place in the lake of fire. They are those who are unbelieving….and liars among the other things listed below. Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I take these words in Revelation 21 literally that there will be those who are not saved and who are not written in the Lamb’s book of life who shall not enter into the city of the Lamb. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that over cometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death...
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I also take Jesus’s words in John 3:16 literally that those who believe will have everlasting life: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I take Paul’s words here literally that those who believed have been sealed with the Holy Spirit until redemption: Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I am alarmed at the teaching of this person because either he is a liar or I am and Revelation 21 says that liars will have their place in the lake of fire. My trust is in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins. I have been bought with a price, I am not my own. I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, either I am wrong or he is. I cannot see that we both preach the same Jesus. I believe in the Jesus that said these words: John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I believe those words to be literal and they are from the mouth of the Son of God.


I believe all these things too @bear.

The difference is that we often read scripture with a certain understanding of them already in place. Therefore while we read the words the meaning we receive from them may be different. Why do you think there are hundreds of denominations? It is the nature of Babylon...confusion.

As to Stephen possibly being a liar let us not forget that they called the Lord Jesus Christ a servant of Beelzebub, the father of lies. Perhaps you are not understanding what he is saying? 1 John 1:8 "If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1:9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us." Is this what you believe Stephen may be guilty of? I can assure you he is not.

Who is the one who perishes? The old man, the first Adam and all his works that are listed as you described. Who is the one who is joined to the Lord and receives life in the ages to come (life aionian as the Greek says)? The awakened spirit of the man who comes into union with the Second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ, the High Priest of our profession. This is true of everyone but at different times...each in their own "squadron" (1 Corinthians 15:23).

What do you believe the "lake of fire" is? The teaching of the apostles and the early church teachers for the first three hundred years was that it was "wise fire". Our God is a consuming fire. The Lord Jesus came to baptise with the Spirit and with fire. It is used for the purpose of correction and purification. This is why those who overcome, who have passed though the fire of tribulation and suffering to emerge victorious will not be injured by the second death...the death of death since the last enemy to be conquered is death. (Revelation 2:11, 1 Corinthians 15:26)

Do you believe there will be no Christians at the Great White Throne? If not why is the book of life opened there?

I believe the only Christians who will take part in the First Resurrection are those who have overcome, the mature sons of God who have finished the race as the apostle Paul said at the end of his life. They will rule and reign with the Lamb upon His throne until the work of restoration of all things has been been completed and God our Father is all in all.

2 Timothy 4:6 "For I am already being poured out as an offering, and the time for me to depart is at hand. 4:7 I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith! 4:8 Finally the crown of righteousness is reserved for me. The Lord, the righteous Judge, will award it to me in that day – and not to me only, but also to all who have set their affection on his appearing."

1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all."

Why don't you read the first book I linked to @bear, "Creation's Jubilee". That will help to make things clear to you I hope. The other links are also helpful. This is not easy for anyone who is steeped in church doctrines which possess the carnal mind of men. These doctrines are largely fear based and that is one of the first things we have to overcome. It is why the Lord Jesus kept saying "Fear not". As the apostle Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:7 "For God did not give us a Spirit of fear but of power and love and self-control."

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

There is a Godly

There is a Godly fear:

Hebrews 12:28 KJV
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

There is a proper fear:

Philippians 2:12 KJV
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

There are those who God does not correct and they are called bastards:

Hebrews 12:8 KJV
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons

Christians will be at the Judgment Seat of Christ only. The Book of Life is opened at the Great White Throne Judgment to prove that those who are lost are not written in the book. It is an indictment against them. Proof without a doubt.

I am saying that someone is lying and it is either me or the author. Someone is preaching another gospel. It is either me or the author. Someone better be working out their salvation with fear because someone is wrong. We cannot both be right. I do not need to read a book to understand the Word of God. You are asking me to do the same thing you are saying is the problem:

“The difference is that we often read scripture with a certain understanding of them already in place. Therefore while we read the words the meaning we receive from them may be different.”

You are saying I must read a book to have the Word of God set straight for me?

I can read Thessalonians and find the words “in flaming fire taking vengeance” in verse 8 followed by verse 9 “punished with everlasting destruction [separated] from the presence of the Lord…” This passage does not at all sound like the teachings of Mr. Stephens’ universal salvation.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think at this point I will agree to disagree with you.


That's OK @bear

My own sister is of the same mind as you. We have had long discussions about these things and she also agrees to disagree. There is no amount of scripture that will avail to change a mind that is made up. That goes for us all not just you.

Still, it's always good to have the discussion. God bless you.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I respectfully disagree on another point

"There is no amount of scripture that will avail to change a mind that is made up."

My mind and heart is open to the Word of God. The Word of God is the final answer. If my theology does not line up with Scripture, I am wrong. Scripture is right. Scripture is the only thing that will change my mind.

2 Peter 1:20 KJV
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Hebrews 4:12 KJV
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Isaiah 55:11 KJV
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I bet you and your sis have a lot of fun :)

David and bear,

I like and respect you both and have enjoyed following this exchange. I hope this doesn't drop me down a peg (or more) in your eyes. But while there appears to be a major point of disagreement between you, I don't think there is cause for worry. While I'm not saying that there isn't some bad doctrine out there, coming from a less than honorable place (or "just" ignorance) ~ and while presented with seemingly conflicting views, it wouldn't appear that both could be right ~ as you pointed out, bear, in Hebrews 4:12: "For the word of God... is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

I take the Bible literally (or so I believe). But I also believe as you do, David, that Scripture can be interpreted differently. And certainly what we were raised to believe would have an influence on how we do interpret different things. Plus there are simply ambiguities. I believe God knows this! I believe in a loving God. And perhaps this is naive, but I do not believe in a God Who would say ~ rather cruelly, "Better figure out what those words really mean, or... you lose!"

I'm reminded of something that our now departed friend Russell Means once read aloud in a video post here: Catlin's Creed. Catlin was an artist who lived with native-American Indians for many years and was the source of much information about them. He loved the Indian people, and his "creed" talked about different reasons why. Among others are these:

"I love a people who are honest without laws, who have no jails and no poorhouses.
I love a people who keep the commandments without ever having read or heard them preached from the pulpit.
I love a people who never swear or take the name of God in vain.
I love a people "who love their neighbors as they love themselves."
I love a people who worship God without a Bible..."

The church I was confirmed in did not teach the Bible or encourage it to be read. And I left the church in my teens. I came to read the Bible late in life without "religion" attached, coming to it primarily from personal experience, including what could only be described as spiritual experiences, namely, with a loving God ~ what turned me into the (somewhat fanatical, even) believer I am today.

Nonetheless, there were things in my childhood that surely did have an influence on my beliefs and, therefore, interpretation of Scripture. This poem, for one, deeply resonated with me:

Abou Ben Adhem

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold:—
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?"—The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men."

The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest.

I see nothing in the Gospels that would condone the slaughter of innocents. And if the Book of Revelations is prophecy, it will happen, sooner or later, regardless of American foreign policy aiding in the slaughter of innocents. Jesus' message centers around love. As Christians, I'd think we would do well to be directed by love of God, love of our fellow man, and the Golden Rule, letting God do any other judging and on His timetable, not Israel's or ours.

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

"Blessed are the peacemakers

for they shall be called the sons of God." I appreciate your kind intervention @mdefarge.

Unless I am wide of the mark @bear does not believe in the restoration of all things spoken of by the apostle Peter in Acts 3:21 "This one heaven must receive until the time all things are restored, which God declared from times long ago through his holy prophets." Either that or she has a different understanding of that scripture.

We agreed about the point she made regarding the OP where Mr. Carlson does not accept that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament, a belief held unfortunately by many Christians, although I do believe most of the points he made about Zionism were reasonably accurate, especially with regard to the observation that the State of Israel has become a "god" for the evangelical Christian community. This shows once more that one's understanding may be like the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known. 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." I personally find this a lot and like @bear I am very wary of swallowing anything without careful inspection. I suspect we are all pretty wary, like sheep.

You have followed the discussion so you know we reached an impasse when I linked to Stephen Jones' website and she read his commentary on Romans 5. I happen to fully agree with what he said. Although my understanding may be slightly different than his, especially with regard to the future, in the most important part regarding the absolute efficacy of the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ to rectify the sin of the first Adam and to pay for the sins of the whole world I do believe it is impossible to disagree with him. It is after all what the apostle is clearly teaching.

The teaching of the apostles was all centred on the restoration of all things which precludes the doctrine of eternal torment in a fiery hell and includes the ultimate salvation of all mankind. In other words a resounding victory for our loving sovereign Father. This teaching was eventually replaced by the limited salvation of humanity and the doctrine of hell that was emphasised by Augustine of Hippo. This simply imported into the Christian faith the common pagan doctrine of the afterlife and consigned the largest portion of all the human beings who have ever lived to endless torture in fire. The church by this time had already become a political organisation and having the doctrine of hell helped to keep the faithful in line and under control which is always the primary function of organised religion.

My own view is that this understanding of the gospel, which I used to hold, is actually blasphemy although I know most Christians who believe it only do so because it has been Church dogma for sixteen hundred years.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I agree

"I see nothing in the Gospels that would condone the slaughter of innocents."

But, I will say, if I am presented with what I see as error and it is being presented as truth I am going to say so, agreeably. The man that gives the OP video denies God of the Old Testament. I am going to say so; as in: B E W A R E, I see this man is not speaking the truth in some areas and therefore his message may not be true.

I am trying to find the truth about Zionism and until I understand it as truth I am not completely swallowing it. When a video is put up and the man hosting the video is a liar about God I am not swallowing his video.

That being said, I am not the interpreter of the Bible. I am willing to be taught and corrected, but I am also not going to swallow any teaching unless is it provable without contradiction.

That does not mean I hate anyone, it means that I am wary and will say so. Eternity is not a light subject, and if everyone is going to end up OK in the end, well then, that better be very well explained before I accept it. Otherwise a lot of people are going to be misled and suffer an eternity for it. I was glad to have exchange with David. But I asked for truth regarding Zionism, he gave me his source. and I cannot trust his source either.

I am willing to accept Zionism as being wrong, I am about there, but I am still questioning. That is good because when I come to personal resolution I will be able to stand on it as truth and say so to others.

I have even contacted Jews against Zionism and have not yet heard back from them. It is a very serious issue because Christians have been taught to stand behind the nation of Israel. Those Jews say that Israel is not supposed to be a nation until Messiah returns. In other words the man-made nation is a fraud built upon the death of the holocaust Jews. I find the issue one that needs to be resolved in my mind.

There is alot of misinformation going on I suppose because everyone has an agenda. I think it is important to be aware of hidden agendas. You have been at this Liberty stuff alot longer than I. You may be further along. I am like Thomas...I need proof that leaves me without too many questions.


The bible is a

fairy tale book like any other and nobody has absolute proof to show who was the original writer of it and it can be edited in many different ways to where you have have thousands of different bibles out there.

Cyril's picture

Yet, speaking of fairy tales...

Yet, speaking of fairy tales...

I'd argue that MANY MORE, AND WAY MORE EXTENSIVE FAIRY TALES have been written up ever since :





Do I need to add more items to this list ?

I'd bet I could OVERCOME without much difficulty, in total text size, A THOUSAND TIMES that of the "fairy tale" attributed to the Bible's text, couldn't I ?

Or are the increasing numbers of wars, people in misery and subjection and dependence, and being slaughtered, ALL OVER THE WORLD FOR OVER A CENTURY, ... you name it ... figments of my imagination,

like, you know...



YMMV, but I chose to believe in Matthew 7:24-27 anyway.

Not in any of the above list (or start thereof).


"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.


"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

What are you talking

What are you talking about?

"For over a century..." You mean throughout all of human history. War, death, hunger, poverty, etc... These are not inventions of modern society. Besides, think of all the suffering that has occurred in the name of religion. All religions are fairy tails. Who cares whether or not the bible supports Zionism. I live by two basic principles:

Don't cause harm to others or their property.

Honor your word/contract.

In a stable environment, these two principles ensure maximum fitness of an individual, and therefore can be considered the natural laws of humanity. You don't have to be a bible believing christian to have a legitimate opinion on the US support of Israel. It is quite clear to me that the US is depriving Israel of their sovereignty by supporting them financially. Not only that, but by supporting the IDF, we are contributing to the suffering in Palestine. Not to mention the morality of taking money from the US citizens to fund this project.

The US government is contributing to the destruction of people's property, and they are breaking the contract they verbally swore to when they took the oath of office.

I think this is a humanitarian issue, not a religious one.

an idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government

Cyril's picture

On comparisons

"Besides, think of all the suffering that has occurred in the name of religion."

I sure did, so often times.

And I can't express the horror I felt out of my waking up to FACTS :

comparing this :


to that :


You will see that governments, indeed, for quite a recent while now (the last 100+ years), perform MUCH BETTER than religions... in ENGINEERED KILLINGS of people, and by the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS.

The religious wars killings, though uncontroversial, are getting old.

We ought to update OUR FOCUS on the CURRENT evil, IMO.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.


"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Cyril's picture

On the Bible's fairy tales

I was responding to the claim that the Bible holds only fairy tales.

If it is so, then it takes a strange mind (to me, anyway) to NOT denounce much larger texts when put together -and ALL written in the 20th or early 21st century- which have observably failed to bring mankind, over the last 20th century ALONE, anything out of their "good intents".

That's where I was going.

Now, bear with me : I don't think the Bible is full of fairy tales. Not at all. Coincidentally I just wrote about Ezekiel 33:1-6 in another thread.

But of course, we all have our free will to read it (Ezekiel's) or completely ignore it. Or dispute, or even mock it.

We are "free".

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.


"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Oh okay. I oppose most

Oh okay. I oppose most political doctrine. I also oppose most religious text. So I guess we agree to disagree. lol. Thank you for the thoughtful response.

an idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government

look up revelations and it

look up revelations and it says "you say you are jews but you are not. you are from the synagogue of satan"

Cyril's picture

& Isaiah 14:1-21

& Isaiah 14:1-21

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.


"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Cyril's picture

John's Revelation 2:8-11 and 3:7-11

John's Revelation 2:8-11 and 3:7-11

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.


"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

The current situation.

Here is an article dateline November 17, 2012 from a website that I follow regularly. It is discussing the present situation in Israel/Palestine from a scriptural historical and prophetic point of view.


I mentioned the destruction of Jerusalem in my previous post and this is a more complete explanation of this event and why it will take place.

Some additional current information is in these articles:



"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Not all Zionists are Jews,

Not all Zionists are Jews, and far from all Jews are Zionists.

Vice president Joe Biden confirmed this when arse-licking his masters in Tel-Aviv.

That being said, some of the most prominent Zionists in the United States are the Christian Zionists.


Of course, many are simply using Christianity and Judaism as a cover, in reality they only worship power.

A signature used to be here!

In a nutshell:

The Gospel of the Kingdom Vs. The Gospel of Grace

Part 1: http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/the-gospel-of-the...

Part 2: http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/the-gospel-of-the...

Short and to the point.

The law cannot make a wicked person virtuous…God’s grace alone can accomplish such a thing.
Ron Paul - The Revolution

Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms. Ron Paul

I used to believe this interpretation however...

this is the error the Jews of the first century made that virtually all the Christian churches are repeating. Even the Roman Catholic church has recognised that "Israel" has an everlasting covenant apart from the atonement provided by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

The actual situation is quite different. Scripture is indeed being fulfilled but not in the way that the churches believe. The reason for this is simple: the interpretation that the churches accept as true is based upon a literal or carnal hermeneutic devised by the natural mind. The scriptures are indeed given by God, they are spiritual, and must therefore be interpreted by the Spirit of Truth, the mind of Christ, that is given to everyone who believes into Him and seeks to know Him. (Luke 11:13)

The Kingdom does not come by observation. (Luke 17:20) The Kingdom is an internal reality. We live in the external world and are conditioned to think all our lives by this world and its basic principles. Jesus came to demonstrate the purposes of God for each of us and for the Creation. He is our forerunner (Hebrews 6:20), the firstborn of many brethren (Romans 8:29). When we are born of water and the Spirit the process begins to change us from creatures of the old Creation into the sons of God who will rule the new Creation. (Romans 8:18-25) This process is pictured for us in the three major Feasts of Israel, Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles.

In 1948 when the State of counterfeit "Israel" was being violently established in Palestine there was a tremendous outpouring of the Holy Spirit in a small Bible College in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, Canada. Over the following two years this spread all over the world and came to be known as the Latter Rain. There were many revelations of the Kingdom given to the thousands of believers who experienced this event but for the most part the institutional churches rejected the truth being revealed as has always happened throughout the history of God's people. No doubt they were influenced in this rejection by their allegiance to the futurist doctrine and the Jewish State that has since then gripped the minds of Christians everywhere.

This move of God never became a denomination unlike the the the previous revelations attending the Reformation, the Wesleyan revivals, the Great Awakening and the Pentecostal anointing. Nevertheless there were faithful men and women of God who continued to teach the good news of sonship, the Manchild and the Kingdom of God revealed at that time.

The churches continue in their apostasy and the time of the veil being removed from their eyes is approaching. The Jewish State and the city of Jerusalem are going to be destroyed once and for all by God and at that time those who believe that God has a special purpose for those who call themselves "Jews" and seek to build a worldly kingdom in opposition to the will of God will find themselves without an anchor for their souls.

If this futurist doctrine is your belief then I counsel you to seek the Lord while He may be found and repent of your disloyalty to the One who has purchased you with His own blood. You are correct to say that it is the foundation of the support of Christian Zionists for the Jewish State and it has resulted in the apostasy spoken of by the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

There are many links I could provide to help you understand this but this one may be a good place to begin:


May God bless you as you seek to know His will and purpose for your life.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

fireant's picture

" Even the Roman Catholic church has recognised that "Israel"...

...has an everlasting covenant apart from the atonement provided by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God."
Is that what Catholics believe? That the Old Covenant is a substitute for salvation in Christ? I was never taught that, though I have no idea what the modern apostate Church is teaching today.

Undo what Wilson did

Here are a couple of sources:

The first one is the website for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. I have linked the page with a list of links to relevant documents. The one that might be best to start with is the Reflections on Covenant and Mission.


This arises out of the Second Vatican Council's declaration Nostra Aetate in 1965. The conclusion is that the Jews are in an eternal covenant relationship with God that is salvific for them so there is no need to evangelise them.

The second link is from a book by Dr. Stephen Jones a Christian Bible teacher. The book is called "The Struggle for the Birthright" that addresses the historical relationship between the twin sons of Isaac, Jacob and Esau. Chapter 16 of this book deals with The Antichrist but also includes an examination of the claims of the Roman Catholic Church with regard to Judaism and includes an overview of the document linked above. You can read the entire chapter for context but the section you need is headed "Jews Saved Apart From Christ?" Just scroll down the page to get there.


"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)