44 votes

The Bible does not support Zionism (the geopolitical variety anyway)

My liberty friends, you will hear in heightened tones from your "Christian" friends and family that the bible mandates we " christian/ americans" must support the State of Israel. The bible does not endorse any geo-political entity. Please take time to watch and listen to this relatively short documentary and share it with those who are willing to consider that this long held assumption may in fact be a distortion of biblical truth, by those with narrow political and economic interests. This false mantra(meme) exits in many of my generation (50 and up) and is passed down to the next. Please watch> http://vimeo.com/29901084 Political Zionism is racism and "un-christian" because it requires one to show favoritism, which God does not do. **Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.....
**Acts 10:33-35




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Again...

...all of the genealogical records -- all of them -- which were always kept in the temple, were burned up in 70 AD. So if it matters not to God who physical descendants of Abraham are, why should it matter to us?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." ~ Gal. 3:28

I don't think God needs man's genealogical records

torecords to figure out who the descendants of Israel are and restore them and their nation to Palestine like he promised He would. Once again, Galatians 3:28 is talking about people's standing in Christ in this time period before the Second Coming of Christ.

Your point is unclear

Of course God doesn't need genealogical records to know who are the physical descendants of Abraham, but man surely would need them to know and God knows that man would need them if they actually still mattered.

Nothing is done without God's will and those records were destroyed for a reason -- they no longer mattered! Again I refer you to Galatians 3, which EXPLAINS Genesis 12:3:

GALATIANS 3:16 "The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say 'and to seeds,' meaning many people, but 'and to your seed,' meaning one person, who is Christ."

GALATIANS 3:29) "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

(btw, the promise is eternal life in the true Promised Land, not title to a strip of land in the Middle East, which was a type and shadow of the Promised Land)

I agree that Israel

and its physical, Promised Land in the Middle East was a type of Christians' eternal life in Christ. Galatians 3:14-16 builds off of Genesis 22:8. But, that in no way takes away from the physical promise God made to Abraham in Genesis 13:14-16.

And you're not seriously suggesting that God was actually talking to the Church (which did not yet exist) when Ge was addressing Israel in Jeremiah 3:16-19? What about Jeremiah 23:5-8? And in Psalm 105, it says giving the land of Canaan to Israel was an "everlasting covenant."

Again, yes.

We've been going in circles here. So for the last time:

Again, there are not and never have been two peoples of God -- Gentiles were grafted into the very same olive tree with believing Jews, God's Church.

Second: Abraham was an Iraqi and Ruth was a Moabite (just two examples). They became Jews by faith in the one true God.

Third: The land promise you speak of in the OT was always tied to the Mosaic Covenant. If they did not obey the law of Moses, they could not possess the land (Lev. 20:22, Deut. 30:1-10).

Do you think the modern, secular state of Israel keeps the law of Moses?

Fourth: God has removed the Mosaic Covenant forever; so since possession of the land was tied to the Mosaic Covenant, any God-given right to that strip of land in the Middle East is also gone.

Fifth: It doesn't matter anyway, because the land Covenant now includes the entire earth, which the meek (believers in Christ) shall inherit.

Sixth: The entire Old Testament points to Christ, the Seed of Abraham.

You are beginning to understand now.

Start here http://adonis49.wordpress.com/2009/04/02/acrobatic-discrimin... and continue to learn about world history through your own, unbiased, research.

I never used the term "Jewish Zionism". I said you were confusing Judaism with Zionism. Like another poster commented, not all Zionists are Jews and not all Jews are Zionists.

God is NOT a racist

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

"and the truth shall make you free"
John 8:32

Plenty of verses in the bible

Plenty of verses in the bible that can be used to contradict your claim. It is not a perfectly consistent conglomeration of writings.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with racism.

God chose the Chaldean Abram because of Abram's faith in the one, true God amongst his polytheistic neighbors and relatives and promised to give the land of Palestine as an eternal possession to his offspring (Gen 12). Even if you're definition of racism and your take on Israel's place after Christ is correct, then it would make God a "racist" before He sent Christ to earth since He formed the nation of Israel and showed favor to the Usraelutes above all other people groups in the world.

That's just the way God chose to deal with people (through one nation) before Christ came and broke the wall of separation brtween God and man.

You seem to have stopped short from your answer.

finish the scripture.

Isa 43:7

7 [[[Everyone who is called by My name]]],
Whom I have created for My glory;
I have formed him, yes, I have made him."

Isa 43:27-28
27 Your first father sinned,
And your mediators have transgressed against Me.
28 Therefore I will profane the princes of the sanctuary;
I will give Jacob to the curse,
And Israel to reproaches.

Okay.

Judah sinned against God, so, God allowed them to be carried away into Babylonian captivity.

How about these historical events

When the Israelites were whining and being ungrateful and rebellious in the wilderness after Moses lead them out of Egypt, God was going to destroy them multiple times and start over with Moses. Only Moses' pleading prevented that from happening.

When King Solomon lead his people to idolatry, his kingdom was split, and the Israelites scattered. They were conquered and became captives of other nations.

There's a verse in the New Testament in which the pharasees (or was it the sadducees?) proclaimed that they were seed of abraham, and Jesus said that God could raise seed of Abraham from stones.

Basically, there is a pattern set up where when Abraham's descendents are rebellious and wicked, they are not supported by God. He has higher expectations of His people, and since they are His he punishes them with destruction. he would rather destroy all of the wicked Jews and start over with either one righteous family, or even start over with rocks (or, apparently, with Gentiles, those who cannot trace their bloodlines back to abraham), then unconditionally bless and uphold a wicked people.

I have yet to find anywhere in the Bible a scripture that says that those who support any and all Jews and the physical state of Israel (which was put together by force through man feeling guilty about what happened tot he Jews but still not wanting them in their own country), regardless of the Jews' actual righteousness and obedience to God's Word.

I am (edit: was. I've now watched part of the video, and I'm now having my doubts) certain that it is a sign of the Second Coming that the state of Israel exists. But this does not support the falsehood that anyone should unconditionally support any group that acts wickedly, breaking laws in the process, and creating more hatred for those we unjustly support.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

In Genesis

12:3, God told Abraham that he would bless them that blessed him and curse him that cursed him. Verse two makes it clear that God was saying that in the context of the nation He was going to make out of Abraham. That doesn't mean God was giving Israel a license to become an imperial force and that God would lead and destroy anybody that got in Israel's way (although that was true only for the land of Canaan after the Israelites came out of Egypt). As far as Israel today is concerned, it's a lot different because God deals with individuals now, not one nation. However, for nearly the past 2,000 years, the Jewish people have been under the fierce judgement of God for rejecting their Messiah just like they were in the Old Testament when they strayed away from their God. Even somebody who doesn't believe the Bible could see that - from the destruction and genocide of Jerusalem under the Romans, to the intense persecution under medieval Muslim and "Christian" regimes, to Adolf Hitler, and now the constant wars and bloodshed that is a regular occurrence in Israel. ("His blood be upon us and upon our children.")

But, just like in the Old Testament, when God judged Israel, it wasn't to be mean or cruel, it was to get their attention. If God was completely done with Israel as a nation, all of the Jews' suffering over the past two thousand years wouldn't make any sense. Likewise, if God had no future plans for Israel, the Old Testament predictions of Israel's restoration as a nation in Palestine and the Apostle Paul claiming "all of Israel shall be saved" wouldn't make much sense either.

For Heavens sake,

the Old Testament is a mish mash of folk tales, laws and history of an ancient tribal peoples.There is no way that the Jesus Christ of the new testament would condone the treatment of the Palestinians.
Israel does not need to be "protected", ....it needs to be sanctioned and recognised as a terrorist State.

I'm with you, except for the

I'm with you, except for the sanctions part.

Jill...

1) Jesus claimed to be One with the God of the Old Testament and confirmed what was written in the Old Testament in His teachings. So, you accept the teachings of the New Testament but, not the teachings of the Old?

2) This post was claiming that the Bible does not support Zionism. The fact that you don't accept the Bible as absolute truth does not confirm that writers of the Bible, claiming to be under inspiration of God did not predict Zionism over 2,500 years ago.

3) I never said Israel needs to be "protected."

4) We don't believe in sanctions. "Sanctions are an act of war."......remember?

The Bible maybe the

Word of God, but it is also the work of men, translated from ancient Hebrew into Latin, hi-jacked by the new Catholic church. Much of the Old testament are the stories, beliefs and laws of the Ancient Jews, pictures painted in words. To take the old Testament word for word puts you completely at odds with the New Testament.

The OT translations into English during

the Protestant Reformation (16th, 17th centuries) were not based on the Latin. They were based directly off of the ancient Hebrew which was had been preserved by Jewish scribes called Masoretes down through the centuries. How does taking the OT word for word put one at odds with the New Testament?

...because in many, many, Old Testament stories,

God is a vengeful, angry God, always on hand to wipe out the enemy, encouraged slaughter, and was a serious interventionist.
The God that you find when Jesus Christ introduces you , is not that God.

I agree as to there being a

different image of God between the Old and New Testaments. But while I've been made aware of some translation issues, such as where a Hebrew, Greek, or Latin word might have had connotations not reflected in the English translation, I don't see how that would explain that phenomenon. I'd say it more has to do with the new covenant, i.e., testament, that God made.

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

read the book of revalations

.

Joη's picture

rabbi: state of Israel is antithetical to Torah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhA-8ELFAbM

"You underestimate the character of man." | "So be off now, and set about it." | Up for a game?

Cyril's picture

+1 Yes, and let alone...

+1 Yes, and let alone...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM2S0L6xW5c

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Oh...and this:

“And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.” Amos 9:15.

Please note...

...that not all Abraham's physical descendants were in the Covenant. Also note that it was no accident that all of the genealogical records were destroyed in 70 AD.

"So also Abraham 'believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.' Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham." (Galatians 3:6-7)

"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say 'and to seeds,' meaning many people, but 'and to your seed,' meaning one person, who is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

“Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did." (John 8:39)

...

God made two promises to Abraham regarding his seed.

Genesis 22:17,18
17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. 

This is confirmed in Galatians 3 as the spiritual promise. Jesus was Abraham's seed through Mary and through Jesus, all nations of the earth have been blessed. John Wesley described it like this in his "Explanatory Notes," "Abram's seed according to the flesh were like the dust of the earth, Genesis 13:16, but his spiritual seed are like the stars of heaven." That would fit analogically. The dust of the earth belongs to the ground, whereas, the stars have no earthly home. Jesus said in John 18:36 that His kingdom is not of this world. However, God is clearly telling Abram in Genesis 13:14-16 that He was going to give Abram's seed the piece of physical real estate that Abram was standing on.

Genesis 13:14-16 
14And the Lord said unto Abram... Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

There are many passages throughout the Old Testament predicting that God would restore His people (the nation of Israel) to the land of Israel. If all of those promises are relating to Abraham's spiritual see (believers in Christ), that would justify Christians from all over the world packing their bags and moving to the land God gave to Abraham, crusading in other words. But, anyone who reads the NT, knows that's not the case. Nowhere in the NT are Christians told that God had give them or will one day give them the actual, physical land of Israel.

Until 1948, the physical promises were a source of confusion to many Christians. Some claimed that God annulled all promises to the physical descendants of Abraham when the Jews rejected their Messiah, while others simply spiritualized everything they didn't understand.

http://www.growingchristians.org/dfgc/israel.htm

Sorry but...

...there are not two peoples of God nor two plans of salvation.

And as far as the land in the Old Testament, it was a type and shadow of the true Promised Land, just as animal sacrifices were a type and shadow of the true Lamb of God and the temple was a type and shadow of the true Temple. It all points to Christ, Abraham's Seed, who, btw, said, "The meek shall inherit the earth."

I'm not claiming there are two ways to salvation.

to salvation. I'm saying that the Apostle Paul said in Romans chapter 11 that all of Israel will be saved (will believe on Christ). He didn't come up with that on his own.

Jeremiah 3:14-18
14Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: 15And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. 16And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.18Inthose days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

But, it seems clear through those and other passages that the events described in Jeremiah 3:14-18 can't and won't happen until Jesus comes back to earth.

All of (true) Israel...

...will be saved, meaning "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away" (John 6:37) -- not all Jewish people living in the nation of Israel in the 21st century. That's not only unbiblical, it's "Script-torture," i.e. trying to make something fit that doesn't fit by ignoring much of Scripture and choosing instead what you'd like to believe.

So, you're saying that Paul

was talking about the body of Christ when he said "all Israel shall be saved?" I could understand that if it didn't directly follow "blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." He makes a distinction between the Gentiles that will come in[to the body of Christ] and Israel. He says in the very next sentence "And so all Israel shall be saved." He has just distinguished between Israel and Gentile believers, so by " all Israel...," I assume he means all Israel as in the entire nation of Israel. I don't see why that's so hard to believe in the 21st century at a time when we can see the nation of Israel has been restored as a geo-political country.