6 votes

If Hitler had murdered Muslims instead of Jews...

would the Western world view him differently?

So far, not too many people (besides the Liberty Movement and Anti-War Democrats) have questioned the continuous killing of Muslims since the 1950s by the United States Central Government and its allies.

It makes me wonder.

Feel free to opine. I am genuinely curious what you think.

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If a Frog had Wings...

...he wouldn't bump his ass a'bouncin'.

By which I mean...

all this speculation is great but I'd rather spin yarns about the future rather than about the past...

Nobody feels good about millions of people dying.

BTW Seinfeld, Sunny in Philadelphia - hilarious! I mean, funny! I love Jews ha ha ha!

Pandas can't drive.

This is a subject

This is a subject all on it's on. Unfortunately there is a lot of miss info in the comments.

Hitler greatest story never told
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW9SN69o6rc

HITLER´S SPEECH IN DANZIG 19 SEP 1939 PART 1 OF 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4rPn34qMkI&bpctr=1353402964

One Third of the Holocaust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S8B33PuLjw

Hitler on Israel and Palestine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S8B33PuLjw

!!!
http://mk.christogenea.org

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5

And

Auschwitz: Surprising Hidden Truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuV1K_1enmQ

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5

Given everything else about the scenario, I say probably yes.

In the counterfactual scenario where 1930's Germany is the same in every way, except instead of having a significant Jewish minority to persecute, it persecutes Muslims:

- The US still ends up going to war with Germany. Pro-British FDR was itching for a fight with them so bad he had to goad the Japanese into bombing Pearl Harbor. See Robert Higgs' recent speech at the Mises Circle about this- it's available for free on the audio mises daily podcast.

- The US government still perceives a need to convince the public that it was worth suffering through the losses of friends and family, plus rationing, plus inflation, that all resulted from the war. Thus, the incentive is still there for them to claim that fighting for stopping the oppression of Muslims is "why we fight".

- Many of the escaping Muslims would have found their way to the US, and some of these would have become integrated into the culture, thus able to influence perception about the genocidal tyrant they fled from.

- The communist textbook writers in American acedemia are still looking for an opportunity to make the USSR look good, and man, it's tough, except for their ace in the hole, which is that we didn't go to war with them...

IMO Hitler was destined to become the first dictator ever to be given the full amount of negative press that he deserved, no matter who he was oppressing.

Awesome Observation

IMO Hitler was destined to become the first dictator ever to be given the full amount of negative press that he deserved, no matter who he was oppressing.
I can think of several others that should follow in his footsteps with the negative press and personal repercussions for his crimes as leader.

Just open the box and see

My friends in the military

My friends in the military all say the say thing...

"They're all fu#%ing nuts, not the kids, but most of them just don't live the same way we do. They're religious fanatics, hell bent on shoving Allah down our throats."

Everybody wants to rule the world...and in the 21st century, Western Judeo-Christianity is battling against Eastern Atheist-Islamic Communism.

http://www.mahalo.com/islamic-socialism/

http://www.realestateradiousa.com/2011/02/04/islamic-socialism/

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/1864

"All Muslim colonised peoples are proletarian peoples and as almost all classes in Muslim society have been oppressed by the colonialists, all classes have the right to be called 'proletarians'. ...Therefore it is legitimate to say that the national liberation movement in Muslim countries has the character of a socialist revolution."

Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

If you friends ALL say that

I respectfully submit that your friends are all idiots. I spent most of the last 6 years in various parts of the Near East. My observation is that some people are crazy, some are kind, some are intelligent some are stupid. Some are fat, some are skinny.
Keep in mind I worked alongside Muslims, I had affairs with Muslim women, I was arrested for flipping one guy the bird, I went to movies, and bars, did coke, (even got ripped off in a drug deal) smoked hash, went to a Muslim wedding (the male part), had a dude try to get me to do some gay shit...I lived there. The perception that Islam makes Muslims impossible to deal with is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
They are even getting to be as fat as Americans with the introduction of fast food!

I used to say that about Jehovah Witnesses

Until they were banned from the airport and replaced by the TSA.
I miss the Jehovah Witnesses. :)

Just open the box and see

Hitler was against democracy and capitalism.

he blamed both for the depression.
you have not done your homework dude. do you even know what "Nazi" means? are YOU one? before you answer, any idea who holds your death-pledge? opppp's my bad. your "mortgage"?

watch "the soviet story". if you want the truth.

In all honesty...

1. If Hitler killed BROWN coloured Muslims instead of WHITE coloured Jews, majority of Europeans will close on eye.

2. We have proof today - Guantanamo is the modern day Auswitch.

not to be a spelling "nazi" but...

...it's AUSCHWITZ ;-)

Hitler killed far more Slavs

Hitler killed far more Slavs and Gypsies than he did Jews. That is a historical fact.

+1

for some truth.

Homosexuals, the retarded, anarchists, the list goes on and on. Basically anyone who didn't accept Nazism was a target.

Here's a fun idea: ask an American how many Jews died in WW2, then ask them how many Americans died. 99 out of 100 will know the former, I doubt more than 5 out of 100 will know the latter.

Without getting too much into the various views on the Nazi Germany holocaust in regards to Jewish folk, I'd always used to get angry when people said things to me like "you don't understand, your people were never oppressed by Hitler."

When I bring up slavs, I get dismissed as either a racist or a 'denier'. Quite infuriating, considering my heritage.

I don't get angry anymore, though. I'm past that. Now I feel pity. You can't force people to learn...

A signature used to be here!

tasmlab's picture

The horror of public schools

I find it irritating that when people ask about how the German population could stand idly by when the holocaust was happening is that people are horrified to learn that 'the government controlled the schools'. Ugh! They brainwashed the people!

And now we sit idly by while our government kills millions of Asians and arabs over the decades and our public schools are somehow sanctimonious treasured public institutions.

We suck!

Currently consuming: Gatto: "Underground history of education..", FDR; Wii U; NEP Football

Those who don't know History

Are doomed to repeat it.

Just open the box and see

Why does noone talk about the more than

10 Million Christians that our ally, Stalin, murdered?

tasmlab's picture

Or the 10 million or so Asians the USA murdered

Or the 10 million or so Asians the USA murdered through Operation Starvation?

The Holocaust has the best marketing of any of the governmental mass murders

Currently consuming: Gatto: "Underground history of education..", FDR; Wii U; NEP Football

Who controls the worlds media

Rueters owned by whom? Yah thats whey we get the jewish propaganda ramed down our throats over and over again, they control most all the world propaganda news. Rothschild the private owner of IzUnReal, the master genocidists.

sovereign

Cyril's picture

Asking the question is answering it.

Asking the question is answering it.

But like I said, we better move our focus on to something else even uglier.

Peace.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Cyril's picture

Sincerely, our ever ongoing divisions on this are getting old.

In all sincerity, our ever ongoing divisions on this are getting old.

Yes, our divisions around which religion to blame vs. which to praise, which killed the most innocents vs. which had the most martyrs in humanity, etc ... are getting REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, old ... from my point view.

Like the oft-heard, literally PARROTED argument I heard all too often in my childhood, on TV, in public schools, on TV here again, and now on "Liberty forums" on the DP, that religions have killed so many people all around the world (well, yes) in all times ! ... that they STILL ought to be a primary focus of ours to be wary of ... against their "fanatics", and to debate, frown upon, argue about, etc.

Okay, but wait. "In all times", did you say ? Including... like today ? Hence the relevance of our STILL ONGOING DIVISIONS, there ?

Wait. Can't we know better ? TODAY.

Yes, literally ... pay attention to the word : TODAY ? Like right now ? Like in the 1990s ? Like in the 1980s ? Like in the ... 1950s ? Wait. Like way back in 1910 ?

So, it has been a BAD RELIGIONS VS. GOOD RELIGIONS ***ALL** ALONG ? Up to ... TODAY, so that we SPEND SOOOO MUCH TIME, EFFORT, AND SPITE FIGHTING in these endless arguments ?

Hmmm.

Let's ask again : CAN'T WE know MUCH BETTER ?

And for a good while, now.

To my point, then ... finally :

Do you believe ? Are you a Christian ? If yes : read what follows literally. If you're an atheist : you're still welcome, brother, then just take it as a metaphor.

The Great Babylon HAS ALREADY FALLEN. MIND YOU.

For more than a hundred years now, this is THE VERY BEAST ITSELF RISING, NOW (that Babylon was riding) :

http://www.dailypaul.com/253314/democide-death-by-government

And if I were THE BEAST, that's EXACTLY what I'd do, INDEED !

Yes, that's what I do :

I'd sure try somehow to have the people that I will devour be kept hypnotized, like a deer in headlights, by the Fall of Babylon -religions that failed-, yes, for them to NOT notice MY SUDDEN AND VIOLENT RISE, BEFORE MY WRATH AND DEVOURING THEM COMES.

My friends : we can almost regret Babylon and her past ride of the Beast, ALREADY.

Global Government and Global Enslavement are THE NEW, CURRENT EVIL, NOW ... for a 100 years in fact.

It's REALLY time to update our world's INFAMYBOOK status, my friends.

http://www.un.org/esa/dsd/agenda21/

http://unctad.org/en/pages/DITC/DITC.aspx

Thank you.

And Peace.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Scientific evidence

Scientific evidence proves the revisionist claims that there were no gas chambers.

Hitler didn't murder Jews.

The people responsible for all the deaths during the wars are the people behind the central banking system.

Who owns the Fed? Who does America fight it's wars for?

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5

Following the money

of that war has convinced me that the PTB was backing all sides, and profiting hugely.
As speculation only, if they wanted to inflame America to join the war (which they did want), evidence of that sort of atrocity should do nicely. It did not. It took the attack on Pearl Harbor to make that happen.
Skewing the data to exaggerate or outright make up stuff wouldn’t have been that hard with 1940's information technology. That is verifiably not beyond the government’s power or ethics. Pearl Harbor itself has been proven to be a setup (among other situations). If the start of the war was a setup, I am not beyond believing (with evidence) that the narrative of that story is off as well. Not saying Hitler wasn’t bad, just wondering how far off that narrative could be.
I believe the “war on terror” is similar enough to draw some corollaries.

Just open the box and see

I'm not doubting your claims, but please provide...

the source containing the published scientific findings.

I'll be happy to review it. After all, I'm a scientist.

Your focus on Hitler

and the assumption that he only killed (or primarily killed) Jews says it all. Little to no attention is ever given to all the non-Jews who were persecuted and killed (by all sides) in WW2. The Holocaust™ is the only thing ever considered important. Funny thing is, the Holocaust™ would have "happened" with or without Hitler. It had to "happen", in order to establish Israel and to get Jews to accept it, because the Torah prophesies that six million Jews must perish before the state of Israel can be created.

As early as 1900, articles were already being published claiming that six million Jews had died in a "holocaust" and begging for money and land (Palestine) for the survivors. Some even claimed that it was the Russians who were "planning a Final Solution" for the Jews: http://radioislam.org/islam/english/revision/six_million_myt...

Had Hitler never persecuted the Jews, he would probably be viewed as no worse than Stalin or Mao today, and the swastika wouldn't be considered a symbol of hate. WW2 re-enactors could play the role of Werhmacht soldiers without removing historical insignia or continuously explaining that they don't condone racism or genocide. Maybe the toothbrush mustache might still be around. But nothing would really change on a grand scale. The Zionists would have in all likelihood found a way to forge a Holocaust™ anyway, Israel would still have been created, we would still have the same propaganda and the world would still feel the same towards Muslims as it does today.

So, in your estimation those 6 million Jews...

wanted to die to fulfill a prophecy? Or the overall population of Jews wanted 6 million of their fellow Jews to die - just hopefully not themselves?

The post's attention to the Jewish element of the Holocaust was not meant to take away from the others that died. However with the actions the Israeli government is now taking against the Palestinians, the Jewish element is currently very relevant, IMO.

Personally, I detest all of the tyrants you mentioned, but would this post have generated as much attention if I used Mao as an example rather than Hitler?

Just curious, are you an actual fan of Hannah Montana? Found the name interesting in the context of this conversation. I wouldn't immediately associate a fan of her with someone interested in these matters, but individuals come in all flavors. No offense intended.

I should clarify.

I'm saying the "Holocaust" had to be invented in order to fulfill the prophecy and create Israel.

I have researched the so-called "Holocaust" and I have come to the conclusion that the official story is a bunch of baloney. To this day there exists no shred of credible evidence that even a single Jew was gassed. Think I'm wrong? Find me a photo of a Nazi gas chamber. And no, I'm not talking about a bomb shelter with the walls knocked out and a fake chimney that's not even attached to the building. I mean a real gas chamber. You can't, because they never existed.

FYI here is what a real gas chamber looks like, an American one to be exact:
http://oi39.tinypic.com/b52r2f.jpg

Now, that is not to say that Jews and others didn't die in concentration camps. Many of them did die of Typhus, and I'm sure many were also shot or worked to death. But there was never any mass extermination plan, and far, far less than six million died. However, the myth was needed in order to fulfill the prophecy and to generate sympathy to establish the state of Israel. So after the war, the "Holocaust" narrative was created; forged documents, confessions extracted via torture, Soviet "reconstructions" of camps and a hefty dose of guilt were all used to manipulate the masses (including Jews themselves) into believing that the Jews were in danger of being "exterminated" and needed a safe haven, far away from the evil non-Jews that wanted to kill them. Thus Israel, the racist, collectivist nation was born.

I'm not a Hannah Montana fan, it was just my nickname in college.

It would also be true

that those trying to "fulfill a prophesy" from the bible or anywhere else don't necessarily have God's authorization or blessing to do so.

Just open the box and see

So now that I know what an American gas chamber looks like...

what does a German gas chamber look like?

Technically, an automobile could be considered a carbon monoxide gas chamber if the exhaust is directed into the interior.

I don't think gas chambers necessarily look a certain way.

Regardless of arguments about death tolls or whatever else, I asserted that Hitler was responsible for the murder of Jews. This is true. Any person or group of people that place other humans in the circumstances that were encountered by prisoners at the concentration camps is/are responsible for their deaths.

What is your estimate on the number of people that died in the camps, and how did you arrive at that number?

Further, what do you suppose Hitler had in store for the people that he had rounded up from society and shipped to the concentration camps? Do you suppose he planned to release them somewhere? Or, do you suppose he planned to just let them die - regardless of the method?

If he planned to let them die, that - by definition - is a mass extermination plot that was enacted as soon as the society began undergoing forced segregation.

So you have no proof

of homicidal gas chambers and are now suggesting that the method of extermination might have been gas vans? Even mainline historians have never tried to make that claim, but don't let that stop you. The Holocaust is a myth after all, and you are free to be as creative as you like with myths.

Anyway, it is impossible to know the exact number of Jews who died in concentration camps, but using statistical data, we can estimate it to be somewhere between 300,000 to 600,000 at the highest. See 'Holocaust Victims: A Statistical Analysis': http://codoh.com/library/document/930

Note that Jewish population statistics before and after the war don't corroborate the claim that six million Jews even existed in Germany at that time, much less died. Also interesting is that the number of "holocaust survivors" has not decreased greatly over the years, even though 70 years after the war, at least 94% of WW2 survivors could be expected to be dead by 2012.

Regarding Hitler's reason for putting the Jews in camps, they were put there as political prisoners, because Judea declared war on Germany first. The Nazis had actually planned to deport the Jews to Madagascar, but that plan was put on indefinite hold after the outbreak of the war. You say it does not matter how the concentration camp victims died, that Hitler was ultimately responsible for their deaths anyway. Ignoring the fact that many died of Typhus (which the Germans tried to prevent via delousing, but had no way to combat effectively) the British, Americans and Soviets also had concentration camps for political prisoners where many died in equally horrid conditions. So they too are guilty of murder, are they not? So why is only Hitler demonized so greatly when no ones hands were clean? Why are the deaths of Jews in German concentration camps elevated above all others ("never forget" etc.), while the deaths of non-Jews are treated as a footnote? Again, it all comes down to who Hitler persecuted. Had it not been Jews, he would undoubtably be regarded as no worse than Stalin or Mao today.

I made the point...

that how can I show you a picture of something if I'm not sure what it looked like? After all, any room could be used as a gas chamber.

I read a portion of the work from Germar Rudolph, but what I gathered is that the number is debated by various groups. For me to be completely objective, I would have to read and analyze the sources of both sides thoroughly (One cannot just read what they agree with and take it as truth).

As I said before, I loathe all of the tyrants you mentioned. Personally, I didn't write the history books. So, I can't be blamed for the emphasis on one group or another. I would agree that the blood of any people that died in American or British concentration camps is on the hands of the leaders and government agents that allowed the deaths to happen - especially if the conditions were equivalent to that found in German concentration camps. There are no superior or inferior races of people - only individuals. No person has the right to use force against another except in cases of self-defense.

To be quite honest, I would rather die in a gas chamber than I had be starved to death or die from Typhus.