When and where has socialism failed?
Submitted by Ludwig M. on Mon, 11/19/2012 - 17:48Are any of you historically savvy enough to enumerate the failures of socialism since the beginning of recorded history?
This would help me with an argument I'm currently having.
»
- Login to post comments
When
they invalidated the INDIVIDUAL.
http://www.svpwiki.com/
Sadly, there was never a "validated individual" society
Socialism - Monarchy - Tribalism - Capitalism (America 1790-1912) - Corporatism - Dictatorship - Emperor - Pharoah
When I was a teen I would sometimes think the Individualist Society can only be had when innovation is such that we (by our own intellect, skill, and personal assets) can run every facet of our day-to-day without dependency on one other soul.
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
The United States
check the deficit
Taborites
From Rothbard
"The following century, the 14th, brought the first attempt to initiate the KGE, the first brief experiment in totalitarian theocratic communism. This attempt originated in the left, or extreme, wing, of the Taborites, which in turn constituted the radical wing of the revolutionary Hussite movement in Czech Bohemia of the early 15th century.
The Hussite movement, led by Jan Hus, was a pre-Protestant revolutionary formation that blended struggles of religion (Hussite vs. Catholic), nationality (popular Czech vs. upper-class and upper-clergy German), and class (artisans cartelized in urban guilds trying to take political power from patricians). Building on the previous communist KGE movements, and especially on the Brethren of the Free Spirit, the ultra-Taborites added, with considerable enthusiasm, one extra ingredient: the duty to exterminate. For the Last Days are coming, and the Elect must go forth and stamp out sin by exterminating all sinners, which means, at the very least, all non-ultra-Taborites.
For all sinners are enemies of Christ, and "accursed be the man who withholds his sword from shedding the blood of the enemies of Christ. Every believer must wash his hands in that blood." This destruction was of course not to stop short of intellectual eradication. When sacking churches and monasteries, the Taborites took particular delight in destroying libraries and burning books.
For "all belongings must be taken away from God's enemies and burned or otherwise destroyed." Besides, the Elect have no need of books. When the Kingdom of God on Earth arrived, there would no longer be "need for anyone to teach another. There would be no need for books or scriptures, and all worldly wisdom will perish." And all people too, one suspects.
The ultra-Taborites also wove into the reabsorption theme a return to the alleged early condition of Czech communism: a society lacking the sin of private property. In order to return to this classless society, determined the Taborites, the cities, those notorious centers of luxury and avarice, must be exterminated. And once the communist KGE had been established in Bohemia, the Elect must forge out from that base and impose such communism on the rest of the world.
The Taborites also added another ingredient to make their communist ideal consistent. In addition to the communism of property, women would also be communized. The Taborite preachers taught that "Everything will be common, including wives; there will be free sons and daughters of God and there will be no marriage as union of two — husband and wife."
The Hussite revolution broke out in 1419, and in that same year, the Taborites gathered at the town of Usti, in northern Bohemia near the German border. They renamed Usti "Tabor," i.e., the Mount of Olives where Jesus had foretold his Second Coming, was ascended to heaven, and where he was expected to reappear. The radical Taborites engaged in a communist experiment at Tabor, owning everything in common, and being dedicated to the proposition that "whoever owns private property commits a mortal sin." True to their doctrines, all women were owned in common, and if husband and wife were ever seen together, they were beaten to death or otherwise executed.
Characteristically, the Taborites were so caught up in their unlimited right to consume from the common store that they felt themselves exempt from the need to work. The common store soon disappeared, and then what? Then, of course, the radical Taborites claimed that their need entitled them to claim the property of the non-Elect, and they proceeded to rob others at will.
A synod of the moderate Taborites complained: "many communities never think of earning their own living by the work of their hands but are only willing to live on other people's property and to undertake unjust campaigns for the sake of robbing." Moreover, the Taborite peasantry who had rejoiced in the abolition of feudal dues paid to the Catholic patricians found the radical regime reimposing the same feudal dues and bonds only six months later.
Discredited among their moderate allies and among their peasantry, the radical communist regime at Usti/Tabor soon collapsed. But their torch was quickly picked up by a sect known as the Bohemian Adamites. Like the Free Spirits of the previous century, the Adamites held themselves to be living gods, superior to Christ, since Christ had died while they still lived (impeccable logic, if a bit shortsighted)."
donvino
Nice. Thanks for this refresher.
Nice. Thanks for this refresher.
So, all in all, and for us all to see :
socialism and communism have indeed ... ALWAYS "WORKED", BLATANTLY ! and from the very beginning !
Woohoo. Someone please call Sean Penn, Springsteen, and buddies, at once - we need to rejoice !
...
Now, granted, depends a lot on what one means by "work"...
My name's pronounced like "see real". Its root is "Lord".
"The demand of a great people is always at the scale of its most serious misfortunes." --De Gaulle
http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty
Thanks for wondering.
Thanks for wondering.
Err... Is it not a rhetorical question, though ?
If not, short answers :
When ? Well, like ... EVERY FREAKING time it has been attempted, TODAY included, and...
Where ? Well, like ... EVERYWHERE, consistently, and constantly shrinking the middle class to nothing, with everybody else in misery but the head of THE STATE.
Skeptical ?
Well, go for it : ask the person you're talking to...
to find us JUST ONE counter-example, where everybody was happy and no one was oppressed - you know, "as advertised" in the normative Manifesto.
Wish him/her good luck on my behalf.
For more info on the inception of Neo-socialism, neo-fascism in the USA :
see Jekyll Island meeting - planning of the Federal Reserve System, 1910.
Peace.
My name's pronounced like "see real". Its root is "Lord".
"The demand of a great people is always at the scale of its most serious misfortunes." --De Gaulle
http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty
The United States
Government has been subsidizing business and redistributing wealth for over a century and it has accelerated its downward spiral around the Nixon days to final collapse which is right around the corner.
That is socialism failure right here in America
For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.
Well said
Nailed it
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
I hate to admit it, but when
I hate to admit it, but when I was in my early 20's I was an avowed socialist. I went to a public school, called myself a liberal and even voted for Al Gore. I loved Bill Clinton.
Young, dumb, and full of....
That was me. What made me change? 911 had a lot to do with it, but ironically, it was my college education that made me really say, "wait a minute here."
I went to Uber Liberal State University, and had an economics professor who said communism was good! I also had a Chinese history professor who flat out said he was a communist.
Then I started connecting the "New World Order," dots with the, "globalist dots," with the socialist/communist dots.
And the rest is history.
Never be afraid to ask simple questions.
Democracy begets Socialism.
in a democracy the people can vote for whatever they want, even your house or wages. in time they will. it is then called socialism.
the Romans figured this out by learning from thier nieghbor.
if you put a few things off limits for voting on. it becomes a Republic.
socialism is not the problem, democracy is.
peace.
Why Socialism Failed
"The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it is a system that ignores incentives."
http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/why-socialism-failed/#...
Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century. While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery. (Equally impoverished!)
In the same way that a Ponzi scheme or chain letter initially succeeds but eventually collapses, socialism may show early signs of success. But any accomplishments quickly fade as the fundamental deficiencies of central planning emerge.
It is the initial illusion of success that gives government intervention its pernicious, seductive appeal. In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery.
A pyramid scheme is ultimately unsustainable because it is based on faulty principles. Likewise, collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it is a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it is not consistent with fundamental principles of human behavior.
Never be afraid to ask simple questions.
1620. Plymouth Colony, USA
google 'plymouth colony socialism' for lots of articles. example:
http://onlineathens.com/stories/112508/opi_359308235.shtml
excerpt:
The communal nature of the new Plymouth colony required all of the crops produced, game harvested, fish caught and products made by one to be shared with all. This led to laziness, lack of initiative and starvation. Half the colonists did not survive the winter of 1620-21, and starvation continued through the winter of 1622-23. William Bradford, governor of the fledgling colony, recognized it was this communal structure that took away the incentive of people to produce, and made the decision in the spring of 1623 that ultimately saved the colony.
The Under-Lying Truth
Anti-Panda Propaganda Systems
--------------
Ron Paul: "If you ever can bring about revolutionary changes two things would be required: young people... and music."
"...it was this communal
"...it was this communal structure that took away the INCENTIVE of people to produce..."
Why work if there is no incentive to do so?
Incentive:
NOUN:
Something, such as the fear of punishment or the expectation of reward, that induces action or motivates effort.
ADJECTIVE:
Serving to induce or motivate: an incentive bonus for high productivity.
Why work hard and get good grades if there is no incentive?
If everyone gets a C, why bother to work? Why bother to study? Everyone gets the same, "equal," grade.
And people wonder why socialism wreaks havoc on the economy.
Never be afraid to ask simple questions.
Here's a classic
http://gizmodo.com/5869533/the-stark-difference-between-nort...
Socialism has failed in
Socialism has failed in Cuba...
Ever been to Cuba? A single egg costs about $6. It's so bad that people risk their lives trying to get to Florida in handmade rafts.
Socialism leads to dictators like Stalin, Castro, and Mao.
Socialism has failed in Greece...
Have you seen what's going on in Greece lately? Their unemployment rate is over 25% !!!
Socialism has failed in Germany...
National Socialism, aka, Nazism didn't work out too well for the German workers party.
Socialism has failed in China...
How many innocent people are murdered or thrown in prison every year just because they so happen to disagree with the communist party? How many millions of babies have been aborted because of China's socialist, one child policy? How many millions of Chinese people are forced to work 7 days, 70 hours plus a week for a peasants wage? How many millions of people did Mao murder?
Socialism has failed in the former Soviet Union...
Hence, "former." The country collapsed from within about 21 years ago.
Socialism was given a huge push by FDR back in the 1930's, and ever since then it has slowly and methodically made its way into the heart of American politics....
Now America has had a president who is known to be in favor of socialist policies. The economy is getting worse, taxes are going up, the middle class is shrinking, and we're starting to hear talk about a, "fiscal cliff," and an economy on the brink of collapse.
Well....duh. Just look at history. As if we couldn't see this coming from Mars.
Never be afraid to ask simple questions.
Pointing to anywhere
that socialism "works" is like jumping off a skyscraper and celebrating your ability to fly all the way down to reality.
"Endless money forms the sinews of war." - Cicero, www.freedomshift.blogspot.com
Socialism works
... like fiat currency works. It only works until it doesn't.
The pilgrims that came to the
The pilgrims that came to the United States found out the hard way...
Pilgrims Beat 'Communism' With Free Market
Recalling the story of the Pilgrims is a Thanksgiving tradition, but do you know the real story behind their triumph over hunger and poverty at Plymouth Colony nearly four centuries ago?
Their salvation stemmed not so much from the charitable gestures of local Indians, but from their courageous decision to embrace the free-market principle of private property ownership a century and a half before Adam Smith wrote The Wealth of Nations.....
The colony's leaders identified the source of their problem as a particularly vile form of what Bradford called "communism."
Property in Plymouth Colony, he observed, was communally owned and cultivated. This system ("taking away of property and bringing [it] into a commonwealth") bred "confusion and discontent" and "retarded much employment that would have been to [the settlers'] benefit and comfort."
Brink of Extermination
The most able and fit young men in Plymouth thought it an "injustice" that they were paid the same as those "not able to do a quarter the other could." Women, meanwhile, viewed the communal chores they were required to perform for others as a form of "slavery."
On the brink of extermination, the Colony's leaders changed course and allotted a parcel of land to each settler, hoping the private ownership of farmland would encourage self-sufficiency and lead to the cultivation of more corn and other foodstuffs...
http://www.heritage.org/research/commentary/2005/11/pilgrims...
Never be afraid to ask simple questions.
Where it's failed:
Soviet Union comes to mind, first and foremost. China, too - the only reason they're still intact is because they're slowly transitioning to capitalism. Of course, there's also the obligatory "all of freaking Europe," which is currently in a state of collapse (Spain has OBSCENE levels of unemployment).
I can't even begin to list all the little countries that have collapsed or are in the process; they're too numerous to count.
Capitalism killed the Neanderthals
And greed and the excesses of the free-market was the direct cause of the Permian-Triassic extinction.
Socialism gave us modern science, the emotion of love, and of course, the greatest miracle ever to occur on planet Earth, roads.
LOL
You forgot another tragedy caused by capitalism -- fascism and the Nazis.
Nazis were, "National
Nazis were, "National Socialists."
How in the world did capitalism, "cause," Nazism, aka National Socialsim?
Eh?
Never be afraid to ask simple questions.
For God's sake,
you can't see both my reply and the original comment were sarcasm. :)
No..I didn't get that it was sarcasm.
It doesn't clearly come across that you were being sarcastic. Often that kind of humor doesn't translate well over the internet.
It's helpful when people include "/sarc." to make sure everyone understands.
When someone says "Capitalism killed the Neanderthals..."
it is pretty obviously sarcasm. When someone's reply begins "LOL" to a comment which is obviously sarcasm, you can be pretty sure the reply is sarcasm.
And then,
to boot, we have someone in all seriousness try to somehow tie in Rothschild and capitalism. You guys need to get a sense of humor.
Because the Rothschild bankers,
and the Military Industrialists, men like Prescot Bush, (G W's Granddaddy) joined hands to make massive profits from both sides of the war. Prescot made a fortune from Jewish concentration camp slave labor. Nazism was a well fertilized seed before it was planted in Hitlers head.
But the question was how did
But the question was how did Capitalism cause the Nazi's...
Becaus there is massive profit
in War. Each side has to be financed, out fitted, fueled, feed, transported, armaments made and sold...etc etc.
Start with researching Prescot Bush. G W's Grandfather.
There are massive profits in being a Dictator too...
but that doesn't make it capitalism.
When the funds to finance, outfit, fuel, feed, transport armaments, ect ect are extorted from the people through taxes and inflation it disqualifies those exchanges from being labeled capitalism. Unless you consider that capitalism, but most around here (i think) view it as fascism.
I think some of the big misunderstandings between many progressives and libertarians just comes down to words meaning different things to different groups...