Content on the Daily Paul is the opinion of the original poster, not necessarily of the Daily Paul, its owner, moderators.

Rand Paul on Fiscal Cliff, Pot, Immigration, Ron Paul and 2016 - Nov 19

Submitted by eduardo89 on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 01:40

ABC News w/ Jonathan Karl | November 19, 2012

http://youtu.be/uFig1WNMmPI

LMAO!!!!

Submitted by dacaman12 on Wed, 11/21/2012 - 14:50. Permalink

Good try there. I suppose I'll honor this post by picking it apart pieve by piece, lol. Let's start with some definitions. Talking past me will require some effort once definitions are established. Here we go:

Straw man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Private Property: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_property

Collectivist Fallacy (directly from Mises, himself): http://mises.org/daily/2528

That'll be a good start.

1. National borders have NOTHING to do with an individual's back yard. I own the private property inside my back yard, therefore I have full discretion in all decision making. However, outside Of my back yard is NOT my property, so I have no say-so whatsoever. Attempting to force through my choices regarding what is NOT mine is the definition of aggressive behavior. Electing a representative to perform the aggression for me does not not change this. The "back yard" arguement is, indeed, a straw man. This cannot be denied unless you're being dishonest ON PURPOSE. Straw manning isn't all too difficult to uunderstand. Repeat all you want, there buddy. Repetition doesn't change reality. Besides, state borders WERE dissolved, at least in the economical sense(remember the civil war?)

2.Good. You agree that the "back yard" B.S. was completely destroyed by my earlier response.

3. We have established undeniably that the "back yard" arguement is, indeed, a straw man through points (1.) and (2.). It appears that you are trying to pin that straw man on me simply because I referenced it. Whatever. My arguemnet concerning state borders is in no way desperate. The "invisible line economics" idiots used to view those borders just like the invisible line idiots today do the national borders. The result? America was the only place in the entire world that fought a civil war to end slavery. EVERYWHERE else in the entire globe, economic laws ended slavery.... and child labor..... and merchantilism.... and socialism.... and the corollaries of socialism, such as communism and facism.

but, yes, there are mexicans here for the purpose of exploiting the system......Just like poor americans in inner-city ghettos. Yup, they are just like all other humans in that regard.

4. There a lot of people that believe the borders have magical properties, such as yourself. Simply capitalizing the word "false" does not refute the fact..... and I own my front door. I can do whatever I want with it. The same cannot be said of national borders.(refer to Mises refutation of the collectivist fallacies for a solid dismantling of the idea)

5. Badges-N-Guns, Inc. = those lawless politicians

6.So much for your claim of "IRREFUTABLE facts", LMAO!!! All that recieve gov't handouts can be accused of EXPLOITATION. You have failed to present a difference between a mexican in texas and a black person in chicago. That's OK, cause the only difference is a superficial one, and is nothing more than a difference in melanin content.

7. The violence at the borders is a result of the economic ignorance of a conservative president(who's greatest accomplishment was an amnesty bill, no less). I understand the cognitive dissonance, but dis agree with the irrational way conservatives are using to achieve consonace.

I proved my stance. It's your turn to offer proof of the magical powers of invisible lines.... You'd probably have a better chance of pulling a rabbit out of your hat.

—

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

This shoud help

Submitted by dacaman12 on Wed, 11/21/2012 - 15:36. Permalink

This should help you adress your "they're EXPLOITING America" theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

We all have an urge to EXPLOIT resources that are un-owned.... I mean owned by all(same thing).

—

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

Pssst... Rand "playin' the game" Paul...

Submitted by Brother Winston... on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:55. Permalink

...we have a bit of an UNEMPLOYMENT PROBLEM. Close to 20%, right?

Amnesty?!?!?!?!?!
Not going to bus the CRIMINALS BACK TO THEIR OWN COUNTRY?!?!?!?!

Welp... so much for my Constitutional Liberty (and jobs, jobs, jobs), right?

—

Brother Winston Smith

The r3VOLution is NOT republiCAN.

You mean this constitutional

Submitted by dacaman12 on Wed, 11/21/2012 - 15:07. Permalink

You mean this constitutional liberty?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement#History

... And the following link addresses the legality of unconstitutional laws, PROVING that aliens from mexico are NOT "Illegal criminals"...

http://constitution.org/uslaw/16amjur2nd.htm

.... Yes, you have been lied to by your gov't sponsored "education".

Restricting a person's ability to cross national borders has been illegal for at least 800 YEARS, LMAO!!!!!!!!! Every anit-immigration law since then is actual no law at all, per our very own G(ang)OV'T(heives).

—

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

Disagreement here

Submitted by EricHoffer on Wed, 11/21/2012 - 17:02. Permalink

I'm not defending Brother Winston, who as far as I'm concerned is the most repugnant guy in this thread, but I disagree.

A nation can do whatever the heck it wants with their borders, whether leaving them open or closed. That's part of the point of government and a military. There has to be a zone of enforcement. Just like you have an invisible line around your property to which you say, "This is what I will use force to defend" so does a nation as an extension of an agreed upon policy.

Property, whether public or private, is determined solely by force and agreements based upon force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_Unite...

As to your constitutional liberty for travel, it applies specifically to the movement between states, which is out of the domain of the federal government to interfere with.

Eric Hoffer

—

http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore

Disagreement, indeed,

Submitted by dacaman12 on Thu, 11/22/2012 - 12:15. Permalink

Disagreement, indeed, sir.

I'd say that a nation can't do anything at all, being that it is only a mental construct. Nations, states, societies, and "the economy" are all ideas in individual minds. I contend that individuals have free reign over their own property and nothing else. Choosing a spokesperson to perform aggression for you does not absolve you of the immorality of your aggression. It only helps address the cognitive disonance that results. Basic human rights and hate towards foreigners are opposing moral constructs, therefore we must achieve consonace by one of the 3 methods(wiki or google cognitive dissonance if this sounds confusing)

Giving physical characteristics to an idea can be used to achieve consonance, although it will cause disonance in another way. Shortsighted, if you will.

—

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

True

Submitted by EricHoffer on Thu, 11/22/2012 - 15:39. Permalink

But property is just as much a mental construct as a nation is, is it not? They're just constructs that guide behavior in situations where a human is among other humans. What is property aside from, "That is mine." How is property first established, by means of finders keepers? By means of those who would use it for the "greater good?" By force?

Saying, "this stretch of land is mine" is no different from a wolf peeing on a tree. It is contestable by others and must be enforced entirely through force or the threat of force.

I'd say your arguments apply with regards to choosing a spokesperson to apply the force, but they'd apply equally to my arguments. How is claiming property a non-aggressive act? Claiming such would rely solely on the theory that the thing being claimed hasn't been claimed by another so far. I'm quite familiar with cognitive dissonance, so no problem there, but you can't avoid it by trying to pretend that groups of people can't jointly own and defend property and call themselves a nation. In fact, I'd argue that tribal territory markers were our first shots at property ownership.

Enjoying the discussion here though for sure, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Eric Hoffer

—

http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore

Disagreement, indeed,

Submitted by dacaman12 on Thu, 11/22/2012 - 12:21. Permalink

Double post. Oops.

—

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

My philosophy

Submitted by Zich244 on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:19. Permalink

If Rand Paul runs in 2016, I will absolutely support him. He may not be exactly like his dad, but he has an excellent voting record and he stands for many of the principles Ron emphasized. However, I would personally rather see Napolitano run in 2016. He seems like an amazing debater and a man of integrity and principle. However it turns out, I will support the liberty candidate in 2016. It is important for us to unite behind one candidate.

Diluted milk is better than

Submitted by Divsterfy on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:00. Permalink

Diluted milk is better than water.

—

"Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear." - Benjamin Franklin

Rand "playin' the game" Paul...

Submitted by Brother Winston... on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 14:23. Permalink

PROBLEM:
"On October 30, Ascension Parish sheriff’s deputies arrested [ILLEGAL ALIEN] Elmer Alexander Esquivel Ramos, 33, after he allegedly beat and raped a 72-year-old woman as she slept in her bed."
RAND SOLUTION:
"we're not putting [ILLEGAL ALIENS] on a bus and shipping [ILLEGAL ALIENS] home."

PROBLEM:
"On Sunday, Harnett County sheriff's deputies arrested [ILLEGAL ALIEN] Jose Trinidad Soto Sanchez, 21, and [ILLEGAL ALIEN] Jose Juan Alverez, 28, after they reportedly raped a 17-year-old girl and shot her multiple times."
RAND SOLUTION:
"we're not putting [ILLEGAL ALIENS] on a bus and shipping [ILLEGAL ALIENS] home."

PROBLEM:
"On Thursday, Eagle County sheriff's deputies arrested [ILLEGAL ALIEN] Ismael Lopez-Alvarez, 24, after he sexually assaulted a 4-year-old girl. He reportedly gained access to the victim after being invited to dinner at the home of her parents."
RAND SOLUTION:
"we're not putting [ILLEGAL ALIENS] on a bus and shipping [ILLEGAL ALIENS] home."

PROBLEM:
"On Wednesday night, [ILLEGAL ALIEN] Julio Cesar Revolorio Ramos, 28, was arrested on child prostitution charges after a brief investigation."
RAND SOLUTION:
"we're not putting [ILLEGAL ALIENS] on a bus and shipping [ILLEGAL ALIENS] home."

PROBLEM:
"On Wednesday, police in Garland arrested [ILLEGAL ALIEN] Bernardo Mondragon-Guzman, 41, for the alleged repeated sexual abuse of a 10-year-old boy. The rapes reportedly went on for more than a year."
RAND SOLUTION:
"we're not putting [ILLEGAL ALIENS] on a bus and shipping [ILLEGAL ALIENS] home."

PROBLEM:
"On Friday, Greenville County sheriff’s deputies arrested [ILLEGAL ALIEN] Emmanuel Ignacio-Falcon, 25, after he reportedly broke into a home and sexually assaulted an 11-year-old girl in her bedroom."
RAND SOLUTION:
"we're not putting [ILLEGAL ALIENS] on a bus and shipping [ILLEGAL ALIENS] home."

PROBLEM:
"Previously deported illegal alien impregnates 12-year-old girl in Missouri."
RAND SOLUTION:
"we're not putting [ILLEGAL ALIENS] on a bus and shipping [ILLEGAL ALIENS] home."

Necesita mas? Hay muchos!!!!!!!!

—

Brother Winston Smith

The r3VOLution is NOT republiCAN.

The Paul Harvey of doltishly enumerated PROBLEMS

Submitted by FedupExpression on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 23:00. Permalink

The biggest Problem...is collective and second-hand thought by intellectual dullards. And now...the rest of the story...

PROBLEM:
"On October 30, Ascension Parish sheriff’s deputies arrested [ILLEGAL ALIEN] Elmer Alexander Esquivel Ramos, 33, after he allegedly beat and raped a 72-year-old woman as she slept in her bed." It was then brought to lite that 12 million illegal aliens had been informed of the impending assault via the La Raza Twitter feed and came bearing candles to light the 47 mile approach to the 72 year old's bedroom.

The Society of Illegal Alien Rapists (Los Sexycanos) spokesman, Emilio Weinstein Torres stated when interviewed by the Collective Untied Network Telecast, a subsidiary of "Demogogues United Mainly For Unknown Collectivist Knaves" clearly relayed the hispanic ideals of taking everything from old white ladies as could be possible and re-iterated the call to all hispanic nations for more "oversexed hispanic males" to come and take advantage of the target rich environment existing within the American borders as plenty more sexy 72-year olds were waiting with bated breath. It is unknown whether or not the call went out yet again.

Local groups were outraged at the audacity of the assault and made such public outcry that the wailing was heard by BBC executives in New York who immediately contacted their leadership in London. An audience was requested with the Queen and a variety of sitting and ex-MP's and the date and venue set for the Jimmy Seville memorial celebration was re-set and relocated to Harnett County .

lvarez, whose charges have been dropped, will reportedly be the guest of honor at the celebration and will receive the time honored Key To the City of London and a personal tour of the Masonic Temple located in Alexandria Virginia will be given by 5 unnamed ex-presidents of the United States.

PROBLEM:
"On Wednesday night, [ILLEGAL ALIEN] Julio Cesar Revolorio Ramos, 28, was arrested on child prostitution charges after a brief investigation found that Ramos had been remiss to his payments to the local constabulary, and that one of his charges had bitten the left testicle of the town ombudsman while on probation for doing the same to 4 local sheriff's deputies on 7 separate occasions.

Ramoses business interests, which have been confisctaed by a local judge, will now be taken over by businessman and LEGAL IMMIGRANT Vasilly "The Knife" Petrogrov who has vowed to protect governmental testicles and remit his expected payments via the court clerks office for as long as he is permitted.

When asked why the reports of the rapes that had been made over the course of the year hadn't resulted in anyone coming to the boy's aid, local police informed WBSHT reporters that Mondraon-Guzman was currently on paid leave pending an investigation and the Department had a strict code of silence regarding accusations made about employees whose investigations were pending.

As purported by Department spokesman Emilio Mondragon-Guzman, all internal departmental investigations must commence, by law, within 12 months of an officer's maximum service retirement date. WBSHT has been assured that all guidelines will be followed in the matter.

PROBLEM:
"On Friday, Greenville County sheriff’s deputies arrested [ILLEGAL ALIEN] Emmanuel Ignacio-Falcon, 25, after he reportedly broke into a home and sexually assaulted an 11-year-old girl in her bedroom." Again it was found that immediately prior to the assault, a strange candle light vigil consisting of 12 Million cheering illegal aliens lit a path directly to the door of the 11-year old girl.

The Society of Illegal Alien Rapists (Los Sexycanos) spokesman, Emilio Weinstein Torres, when contacted by "Demogogues United Mainly For Unknown Collectivist Knaves" was clearly paraphrased as saying that "the hispanic ideal that used be to take everything from old white ladies as could be possible had been re-assesed. That upon further investigation, it was determined as best to widen the net from just old white ladies to encompass 11 to 72 years olds as the success of the previous call to all hispanic nations for more "oversexed hispanic males" to come and take advantage of the target rich environment existing within the American borders was being narrowed by previous arbitrary age restrictions.

—

Finally this election thing is over and we can get on with the collapse of our currency forthwith!

oh brother lol

Submitted by conalmc on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:53. Permalink

I once saw an illegal Alien. it was smokin weed under its flying saucer.

This Is The Stupidest Comment I Have Ever Seen...

Submitted by Viperscale on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 14:51. Permalink

1. I know a lot of illegal immigrants at my work who are very nice people and while they may have broken the law are very hard working(enough to have a legitimate debate on how to handle them). You are painting all illegal immigrants as rapists which is disgusting and ignorant.

2. You know as well as I do that Rand Paul was not promoting granting citizenship to the illegals who committed these horrific crimes.

3. He would be the first person to incriminate any of these people and I find it disgusting that you would paint this as if the son of Ron Paul is pro-rapist and wants to grant these criminals citizenship.

Can you answer for yourself?

—

Follow me on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/DanielZ4Freedom

Claro...

Submitted by Brother Winston... on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 16:12. Permalink

1. Work ethic ISN'T the issue. Pleasant personalities ISN'T this issue. I am NOT "painting all illegal immigrants as rapists." But there are THOUSANDS OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS who have been killed, raped, child-molested, home-invaded, hit-n-run over... AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THIS ILLEGAL ALIEN INVASION. To argue YOUR side, is to position those thousands of AMERICAN souls as some sort of collateral damage to ILLEGALLY IMPORTING "hard workers", WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY GHOULISH!

2. Rand Paul IS PROMOTING AMNESTY. This will ALLOW THESE THIRD-WORLD CRIMES TO CONTINUE!!!!!!!! AMERICANS WILL DIE AS A DIRECT RESULT! And I'll wager our southern border activity is spiking, because of the republican promotion.

3. How does Rand Paul KNOW who is a child rapist? Who is a potential gang member? Who is a drunk driver? Who is a home invader? Carrying disease? Is ethnocentric and HATES America? Is a potential terrorist? HOW?!?!?!?!?! How can he POSSIBLY KNOW THE CHARACTERISTICS OF ANY PARTICULAR THIRD-WORLDER HE IS GRANTING AMNESTY TO?!?!?!?!?!?!

BOOM goes the logic dynamic... to fight off the emotionally-driven gibberish... right, REPUBLICAN Hoffer? See the difference?

—

Brother Winston Smith

The r3VOLution is NOT republiCAN.

Just noticed...

Submitted by EricHoffer on Thu, 11/22/2012 - 15:42. Permalink

I just noticed I was mentioned here and have to weigh in now:

Viperscale covers it all below as far as I can see, but I'd like to point out that you're being absurd.

The crimes you're speaking of are committed by citizens as well, by the logic presented, we should just ship every person out of the country, including ourselves, because we can't tell which people are murderers and rapists.

It just doesn't make sense.

Becoming a citizen =/= immunity from rape and murder charges, no matter how many punctuation marks and capital letters you use.

Eric Hoffer

—

http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore

What?

Submitted by Viperscale on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 17:22. Permalink

1. When did Rand Paul say he wants to grant them amnesty? He simply said that there are other ways then putting millions of people on buses and sending them back. You are ignorantly jumping to conclusions because he hasn't even released the plan yet.

2. I am not saying Rand Paul knows who is a rapist, gang member, or home invader but that you were the one suggesting that he would not incriminate illegal immigrants who committed crimes because he said, "I do not want to send people back to Mexico in buses".

3. I am also not saying that we should grant amnesty to illegals based on them being nice but was making the point that not all of them are rapists as you are describing.

You are making no sense. So stop trying to discredit Ron Paul's son by making up things he never said.

—

Follow me on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/DanielZ4Freedom

Boom

Submitted by EricHoffer on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 14:57. Permalink

Boom goes the logic dynamite.

Eric Hoffer

—

http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore

Wow...

Submitted by Brother Winston... on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 13:57. Permalink

"the way you get more revenue up here..."

Yup. Aside from his REJECTION OF IMMIGRATION LAW (TREASON!!!!!!!!) and LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH ABOUT illegal immigration ("Hispanics in particular, we're not putting you on a bus and shipping you home." ILLEGAL ALIENS SHOULD BE BOOTED, NOT "HISPANICS.")... this is why I will NEVER, EVER vote for REPUBLICAN Rand "playin' the game" Paul. As a Constitutional Libertarian, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT "revenue up here"!!!!!!!!!!!

Yo, Rand... gracias por nuestros vecinos permanentes:
http://www.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp
http://www.examiner.com/immigration-reform-in-national/dave-...

No problemas, though... as long as the leftist republican party gets a lil' .0001% bump in 2014 and 2016, right?

—

Brother Winston Smith

The r3VOLution is NOT republiCAN.

oh ma gerd here we go again with more Rand debates

Submitted by conalmc on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 13:20. Permalink

Can't we all just get a long =)

lmfao

Submitted by conalmc on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 14:13. Permalink

i actually got a down vote for suggesting we put our difference of opinions on rand behind us and get along....WOW...c'mon DPers. Do we not have a sense of humour any more?

Why insist that taxes can't go up?

Submitted by feliznavdavid on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 13:00. Permalink

Hear me out on this. By saying that taxes cannot go up, Republicans are helping to conceal the true cost of government. Are more deficits worth it just to keep our tax breaks? If you want more people to join the liberty movement, let the tax breaks expire and tax rates rise to meet our expenditures. If we insist that our children pay the price so we can maintain our current rate of taxation, the real cost of our government is hidden from the public. Who is going to support a smaller government when they get to enjoy big government benefits without paying big government tax rates? Make tax revenue equal to our expenditures, and you will see a whole host of people more interested in scaling back the size and scope of our government. Going off the fiscal cliff, I believe, would be a net positive for the liberty movement.

—

"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds."-Samuel Adams
http://brushfiresinthemind.blogspot.com/

Yea make us feel it

Submitted by tasmlab on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:08. Permalink

If they just grow through printing and borrowing, it lessens how terribly and hurtfully people will THINK they are being treated.

Unleash higher taxes on the population and I'll be we'll see people begin to complain about the spending.

It would be more honest.

They should itemize it too so you have to write checks to the Afgan war, to the debt/interest, to the wellfare state, etc.

—

Currently consuming: Free Domain Radio; Virtue of Selfishness; Human action;

Honestly

Submitted by EricHoffer on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 15:37. Permalink

I'm starting to move to this view.

They shouldn't be ALLOWED to borrow and spend more than they take in. If they HAD to take it in somehow and COULDN'T spend more than they took in, from whatever source, I think people would be a lot more interested in where that cash is all going.

This "funny money out of nothing" business disturbs me and lets people think the government can always just invent whatever money they need to.

Eric Hoffer

—

http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore

Wouldn't the tax rate be over

Submitted by TJV123 on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 13:06. Permalink

Wouldn't the tax rate be over 100% in that case?

I see where you are going with this thing, but you don't solve one immorality (wars, welfare, police state) with another immorality (in this case MORE theft suggested by you)

The question is who should feel the pain.

Submitted by feliznavdavid on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 13:18. Permalink

If taxation is theft, as you define it, then what do you call deficits? Or inflation when money is printed to make up the difference? Are those not theft as well, just affecting different groups of people? So does it make moral sense for our kids and grandkids to face the consequence of big government or for our generation to do it here and now? The Constitution allows the federal government to raise the necessary revenue to meet expenditures. If we insist that there can be no tax hikes while others insist there can be no spending cuts, there will continue to be larger and larger deficits. I would rather suffer for a few years than cause my children to suffer because I wanted to keep the same tax rate. There will be no real spending cuts until people are forced to see what government actually costs. Deficits allow big governments to continue with relatively lower taxes as the real cost of the beast is hidden from the public.

—

"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds."-Samuel Adams
http://brushfiresinthemind.blogspot.com/

I would agree that deficits

Submitted by TJV123 on Tue, 11/20/2012 - 13:26. Permalink

I would agree that deficits and inflation are immoral as well. Which is my point. You don't offset one crime by committing another.

As far as future generations. The way I see it, is very similar to what the Doc says. There will come a day when the dollar doesn't buy anything, and as a result a myriad of unforseen things will occur. Two very likely things will be the abolition of the Fed and all debt associated with it and its phony currency. The other is the establishment of a new sound currency. Once this happens, the new generation will have no debt whatsoever.